Western Movie Rambles

[movieman1957]

You give as good as you get. That is part of what makes you so good and so much fun. However, I cannot vouch for your cuteness.

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy do, Denver -- Fred MacMurray is a likable but callow fellow, and Henry Fonda is really great as MacMurray's polar opposite - a boy-man who feels things all too much.

 

That's very good. Dave is about emotion and feeling while Jack is more about thought. That is, until the end. Jack eventually comes to feel as how Dave feels.

 

The movie is just plain gorgeous, and Hathaway's ability to make the landscape really talk never fails to impress me. I like his mirror shots of the water.

 

Great observation. And I loved your screencaps of all the brilliant imagery from the film.

 

However, I felt that TOTLP walked a fine line, never coming down to a real viewpoint. Is the desecration of the woods any different from the Falin's burning the camp down? I guess I was expecting some kind of epiphany on Fred MacMurray's part - about the work he was doing, and the land - that the land itself and the kindness of the people would change him. But then, I forget that this was 1936, the height of the WPA.... I guess I was expecting the same spirit that filled Shepherd of the Hills to be here, and it was lacking. I wanted someone to stand up for the good things of the country, while also saying that progress with a heart and an eye is a good thing, but this movie was not about that.

 

No, this film really doesn't look to make any commentary on how the railroad takes away from standing nature. The only commentary we get about progress is that education and money doesn't automatically equate happiness. Tater sings about this at the outset of the film. While Jack is very kind to the Tollivers and June, he's also, unintentionally, looking down at them, ala Ranse. He's convinced that education (and money) is a necessity. He comes to see and, I believe, value other aspects of life.

 

I too noticed the Cathy-like fit that Sylvia Sydney threw... I thought her especially fine during that scene. I did not like her character though, and was disappointed when she turned to Fonda to solve things at the end. Sydney did extremely well with a character I thought was shallow and selfish. I hate to say I felt just like FrankGrimes did about Cathy in WH. But Sydney really salvaged my liking of that character. She added a lot of charm to her role.

 

Wow! You thought June was shallow and selfish? Well, I guess you are right. She wanted Jack and that's what she decided to chase after. That really is selfish. Shallow? I think chasing love isn't shallow. But her saying she wanted "fancies"? Yeah, that's shallow. But, you know, I don't think she liked Jack for shallow reasons.

 

Now if June professed an undying love for Dave and then went with Jack, I would have wanted to strangle her. That would have been Cathy. But June didn't love Dave as a husband. She loved him as he was, a cousin or a brother.

 

June's turning to Dave to solve her problems was definitely an emotional outburst. She thought Jack didn't care that Buddie was killed. All her life, she was taught that it's an "eye for an eye." Jack wasn't looking to go kill the Falins. She knew Dave would respond to her bloodthirsty cry of vengeance. But to June's credit, she then says:

 

June: Dave, I didn't want him to go. I wouldn't have let you go, either. I would have stopped you. I only said those things 'cause I was hurt inside. I could've stopped you. But he's different. He's not like a brother. He'll never come back. He'll never wanna come back. Dave, stop him. Tell him what I can't. Please, Dave.

 

And this reminds me of...

 

 

Even when I didn't like what she was doing, she made me see that June was just a girl, with thoughtless feelings and emotions she couldn't control any more than the men in her family could theirs.

 

Ooooohhh, I like that. June was doing what you say. She was following her emotions. She was in love with Jack and wanted to please him, in any way possible.

 

I loved Henry Fonda, he was like a cut that won't heal because it is in the wrong place, at the tip of the finger where it keeps getting opened up. He wore his heart on his sleeve, and I very much liked the hint of anger in his love. He really did see the invasiveness of the so called "progress", and that is a point in his favor. He was a great mix of foolish backwoods suspicion, and something strong and powerful - pride in his country roots. Though he seems just the tiniest bit broad and stagey at certain points, I found him to be very strong as an actor, and his scenes ((especially with Bondi) are the best in the movie. In a way, he was changed for the better by that "progress" that he encountered. His character stands out for me, because he seemed not of one thing or another, walking between the new world and the old world, between tradition and progress, just as he walked between the two families to end the feud. He steps away from his old world ways in order to bring peace to his country, and for that, he is rewarded with a gun shot, as all Hollywood angels must be. He could never have gone back to the way things were anyway, once the peace was made, his girl gone....He would have ended up lost, maybe a little like Tom Joad, forced to wander between worlds forever. Fonda is about the only actor who can do such a role justice.

 

That was awesome, Jackie. Great writing.

 

After June tells Dave to go save her man, he knows he's lost it all. She tells him he's her "brother." So now it's up to him to decide if his love for her is greater than the pain of her not loving him as he loves her. Very "Doniphon."

 

I love how Dave (Fonda) takes all of June's words to him. It's killing him but then he touches her.

 

 

 

And we've got this:

 

 

 

So it's a double sacrifice for Dave. And this brings me to your words:

 

And I never noticed while watching that Henry Fonda IS the Lonesome Pine.

 

I believe you've got it, girl. Doniphon is the cactus rose and Dave is the lonesome pine.

 

The movie back and forthed way too much for me to really enjoy the complications. They seemed contrived, and that is my biggest complaint with the film. The events did not flow one after another like the water through the mill (a fine symbol - I wish they had used it more).

 

That's a very fair criticism. The film basically turns on a tragic event. It's shocking, and nothing but jarring. So all that sweetness that was being built by Jack and June is completely "blown up." I felt it to be a very realistic feeling towards tragedy. It rocks you. And I felt this image to be perfect:

 

 

June is left hanging. She's disconnected from her family, her true world. The irony of it all is that a phone is to connect us. Well, in this instance, the phone leaves you short. So there's the trade-off of progress.

 

Again, I should have loved the music, and the way it flowed through the movie, dealing with the emotions of the main characters, but I somehow felt a little played, and the guy singing became annoying to me. Perhaps it was just my mood. I did see this movie a very long time ago, and hated it. Now I see a lot of virtue in it, but I was very disappointed with the end product.

 

Wow! That surprises me! I thought you'd love the songs about the simplicities of life.

 

When it's twilight on the trail

And I jog along

The world is like a dream

And the ripple of the stream is my song

 

When it's twilight on the trail

And I rest once more

My ceiling is the sky

And the grass in which I lie is my floor

 

Never ever have a nickel in my jeans

Never ever have a debt to pay

Still I understand what real contentment means

Guess I was born that way

 

When it's twilight on the trail

And my voice is still

Please plant this heart of mine

Underneath the Lonesome Pine on the hill

 

 

 

 

[MissGoddess]

Wow, for once I'm speechless. I thought I was crazy for this film's virtues but your

replies have shown me I didn't even see half of it all. Between your discussion of its

themes and Jackie's analysis of Dave's character, I feel like the comic blonde who stumbled

on the solution without knowing it and takes the credit.

 

I really can see the Libert Valance connection more strongly than ever, and now I have

to watch the film with it in mind.

 

Jackie, I can see the selfishness you speak of. It really is like Hallie. And like Hallie,

it's understandable and somewhat justified. Where the films are alike they also part,

for TOTLP lays the conflicts out but doesn't bolster and layer them with as many

different themes as Ford would his version of the story.

 

Good catch, Frank, the "pine" and "cactus rose" symbolism. That was beautiful.

 

And yes, the first similarity I noticed to Shepherd was the cabin. I could almost swear it's the same location used for both films.

[MissGoddess]

Wow! That surprises me! I thought you'd love the songs about the simplicities of life.

 

When it's twilight on the trail

And I jog along

The world is like a dream

And the ripple of the stream is my song

 

When it's twilight on the trail

And I rest once more

My ceiling is the sky

And the grass in which I lie is my floor

 

Never ever have a nickel in my jeans

Never ever have a debt to pay

Still I understand what real contentment means

Guess I was born that way

 

When it's twilight on the trail

And my voice is still

Please plant this heart of mine

Underneath the Lonesome Pine on the hill

 

 

 

[JackFavell]

FrankGrimes-

 

>June is left hanging. She's disconnected from her family, her true world. The irony of it all is that a phone is to connect us. Well, in this instance, the phone leaves you short. So there's the trade-off of progress.

 

WHOA! That was brilliant - the entire post as well.

 

>"There ain't no more chance of me changing as that old lonesome pine turning into a hickory..."

 

Hi, Hickory. Change has got to happen - it is inevitable. If you resist it, you are killing yourself. It'll split you in two just like a lightning bolt down the trunk of that rigid lonesome pine.

 

One thing I would add after reading you and MissG's posts is that June is a Tolliver all the way through - just as the men will fight Falins because "that's what we've done for a hundred years", she would marry Dave, because that is what her life is supposed to be - it's that tradition dictating what happens, even though it may actually kill those who follow it. "That's the way we've always done it."

 

So June must change or die, and Dave can't change - the change actually takes him as it's victim.

 

As an aside, I loved your pics of the doggie, and the idea of animals and their counterparts - Marnie has her pet too....

 

MissG I was a little harsh with this movie, and especially Sylvia - now I wish I had time to go back and watch it again. You and Frank really brought out a whole new depth for me... I think I only saw the first layer....

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Oct 20, 2010 12:07 PM

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Little Red Buick -- WHOA! That was brilliant - the entire post as well.

 

Awwwwww, thank you. I thought your original post was terrific.

 

Were you married during hog killin' time or green up?

 

Hi, Hickory.

 

You've got it! But I'm more like a weed you just can't get rid of.

 

Change has got to happen - it is inevitable. If you resist it, you are killing yourself. It'll split you in two just like a lightning bolt down the trunk of that rigid lonesome pine.

 

I agree. Either you move with it or you are left behind. I'm left behind. And many later westerns would really focus in on this.

 

One thing I would add after reading you and MissG's posts is that June is a Tolliver all the way through - just as the men will fight Falins because "that's what we've done for a hundred years", she would marry Dave, because that is what her life is supposed to be - it's that tradition dictating what happens, even though it may actually kill those who follow it. "That's the way we've always done it." So June must change or die, and Dave can't change - the change actually takes him as it's victim.

 

Sensational point. Like many families, the Tollivers have their traditions. They impart their beliefs and traditions on their children. The children learn a certain way, the good and bad. Eventually, a child grows to a point where they can do their own thinking. Do they go against their family with something or do they continue the beliefs and tradition? It's not an easy choice for a child, for they fear being shunned by those they love the most. They fear they will be seen as an "enemy."

 

Dave is firmly in the camp of his family's beliefs and traditions. June is exposed to something new and she wishes to follow that. That is, until tragedy strikes. Then she turns back to what she's been taught as a child.

 

And I'd say most people raise their children with the idea of them following their own beliefs and traditions. Oddly enough, I've always had the idea that I wanted my child to be who they wish to be, so long as they are respectful of others and their beliefs and traditions. "Don't do it just because daddy does it. Do it because you like it." But I say this without ever been a father. Hey, what are we to teach our children? We can only teach what we know, right?

 

Notice how June has to lie to her father to get his permission to go to town. She has to tell him that Dave wants her to do it. Lying is often a byproduct of all this.

 

As an aside, I loved your pics of the doggie, and the idea of animals and their counterparts - Marnie has her pet too....

 

Marnie's pet is Mark!

 

Howdy, Fordy Guns -- Wow, for once I'm speechless.

 

With your big mouth? Impossible!

 

I thought I was crazy for this film's virtues but your replies have shown me I didn't even see half of it all. Between your discussion of its themes and Jackie's analysis of Dave's character, I feel like the comic blonde who stumbled on the solution without knowing it and takes the credit.

 

Danger-prone Daphne! I believe you saw the depth of the film right from the start or you wouldn't have bawled your eyes out. You deserve all the credit for recommending the film.

 

Good catch, Frank, the "pine" and "cactus rose" symbolism. That was beautiful.

 

It's something of the earth that is very simple but also very meaningful to some.

 

And yes, the first similarity I noticed to Shepherd was the cabin. I could almost swear it's the same location used for both films.

 

I was wondering if it's the same spot, myself. It really is a beautiful looking film.

 

Thanks for posting the song from the film. I liked how Dave, Thurber, and Jack all hum the song. They are captured by it.

[MissGoddess]

I'm definitely a Pine and surrounded by ax-wielders!

[JackFavell]

Hog killin time. It was beautiful!

 

I think I am a hickory. I've had to be. But the older I get, the more I revert to my original pine roots.

[FrankGrimes]

[FrankGrimes]

Hog killin time. It was beautiful!

 

Why doesn't this surprise me?

 

I think I am a hickory. I've had to be. But the older I get, the more I revert to my original pine roots.

 

Why do I think the moment you get close to one, you move the other direction?

[MissGoddess]

where is a good tree-hugger when you need one?

[JackFavell]

Wow.... you read my mind, I sat there trying to figure out which one I was....and couldn't!

[FrankGrimes]

where is a good tree-hugger when you need one?

 

Wolf whistle!

 

You slapped and kicked them all away!

 

Oh, but I'll hug you. I'm sure you trust me just to hug.

 

Wow.... you read my mind, I sat there trying to figure out which one I was....and couldn't!

 

That's because you're a conflicted tree! You're a shrub! You create a maze!

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> where is a good tree-hugger when you need one?

>

> Wolf whistle!

>

> You slapped and kicked them all away!

>

> Oh, but I'll hug you. I'm sure you trust me just to hug.

>

 

 

Trees have another function, too, you know.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Hey! That's not love in the air! You asked for a hug! I can't help it that my way of hugging is a certain way! It's what I been learned!

[MissGoddess]

You been learned to bury the hatchet in my roots!

[FrankGrimes]

That's because you kick me with all those roots of yours! Besides, it's a loving hatchet.

[MissGoddess]

I don't have any roots but I do have a branch for swinging ropes!

 

See how you bring down the tone of the conversation?

[MissGoddess]

While on the subject of appropriate use of branches.....I had this little

trifle in oils painted up for the occasion:

 

 

 

One more reminder that Budd Boetticher's *Ride Lonesome* is on TCM tonight at eight (EST).

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Oct 20, 2010 7:50 PM

[clore]

Even though I have the DVD, I'm going to watch it just to hear what A. O. Scott (how appropriate) has to say about it.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=clore wrote:}{quote}

> Even though I have the DVD, I'm going to watch it just to hear what A. O. Scott (!) has to say about it.

 

He made some interesting choices for his picks, a nice mix of genres and directors.

[clore]

>>He made some interesting choices for his picks, a nice mix of genres and directors.

 

I really like tonight's line-up.

[MissGoddess]

I'd forgotten Pernell affects a "country boy" accent in this. And Jim Coburn's

as skinny as a bean pole. I really don't recollect most all of this movie (am I

affecting a country girl accent now?).

[clore]

It is Coburn's first movie, he probably wasn't eating well until this point.

 

Karen Steele though will never be mistaken for a bean pole. She plays Mrs. Lane, a name that pops up often in Burt Kennedy scripts:

 

RIDE LONESOME - Karen Steele as Mrs. Lane

COMANCHE STATION - Claude Akins as Ben Lane

SIX BLACK HORSES - Audie Murphy as Ben Lane

MAIL ORDER BRIDE - Buddy Ebsen as Will Lane

THE TRAIN ROBBERS - John Wayne as Lane

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=clore wrote:}{quote}

> It is Coburn's first movie, he probably wasn't eating well until this point.

>

 

ha! I did not know it was his first. He does act eager.

 

I'm noticing all the similarities to *Hondo*.

 

> Karen Steele though will never be mistaken for a bean pole. She plays Mrs. Lane, a name that pops up often in Burt Kennedy scripts:

>

 

Ms. Steele is the weak link for me in *Ride Lonesome*. But I'm sure you gents

don't agree.

 

> RIDE LONESOME - Karen Steele as Mrs. Lane

> COMANCHE STATION - Claude Akins as Ben Lane

> SIX BLACK HORSES - Audie Murphy as Ben Lane

> MAIL ORDER BRIDE - Buddy Ebsen as Will Lane

> THE TRAIN ROBBERS - John Wayne as Lane

 

And it happens to be my surname, to boot! We Lanes sure

got around the West.