Western Movie Rambles

[CineMaven]

'Scuse this sidewinding sodbuster for just one extremely brief observation. John Wayne hands Claire Trevor the canteen which she drinks from. She offers it to the crusty ol' gent who brusquely says no.

 

Claire's reaction as she sort of slinks down in her seat is so subtly done. She's been hurt.

 

That's my girl!

[laffite]

Thanks, *Jackie*, for all you wrote. Yes, it can take awhile before we get the idea that "It's a Fooooorrrrrrrrrrrrdd"

 

Okay, okay...sorry.

 

(I hope I'm not the only one old enough to remember that)

 

*When I saw Grapes of Wrath at age twelve or thirteen, it completely turned me upside down emotionally...*

 

I think you must have been a precocious child. No wonder you?re so smart, Jackie, that?s a pretty early start to having such heartfelt reactions to movies like that. I?m impressed. I was no where near there at that age.

 

*I realized that there were all these layers - layers you could come back to at different ages and appreciate. As if your young self and your old self could be lined up next to one another, watching the same movie, but getting totally different things out of it.*

 

I think more and more that even within a relatively short space of time I can get those opposing takes, depending on just where I am at a given time and where attitudes are. I was under whelmed with both *Quiet Man* and *The Searchers* and I?m sure I was held back by my stupid preconceived notions about Westerns and even John Wayne who I never liked much (although that?s changing a bit now). Even something as simple and variable as what kind of mood I'm in at any given time might effect how ready I am for a particular film.

 

*Anyway, sorry for getting carried away, I never meant to rattle on so much, straying off-topic.*

 

Never apologize (even casually like this) for that, you?re too good of a read. I?m the one who rattles on too long .

 

*CineMaven*: I feel so sorry for Claire inside that coach. I was more affected by the psychological suicide of offering her shoulder to Mrs Malloy. Claire is so beaten down at that point in the story, a scarlet woman in a coach, surely she must have known she would be refused. Her sigh of disappointment while looking out the window is as much an acknowledgment of forlorn hope as actual rejection.

[CineMaven]

CineMaven: I feel so sorry for Claire inside that coach. I was more affected by the psychological suicide of offering her shoulder to Mrs Malloy. Claire is so beaten down at that point in the story, a scarlet woman in a coach, surely she must have known she would be refused. Her sigh of disappointment while looking out the window is as much an acknowledgment of forlorn hope as actual rejection.

 

I came home a little while ago and turned to TCM and saw that very same seen I saw on YouTube this morning with Claire offering the canteen. Whew! I haven't seen "Stagecoach" in a very long time. I know...I must give up my card carrying Maven membership b'cuz of course, without doubt, this film must be put in a time capsule for future generations.

[JackFavell]

>I think more and more that even within a relatively short space of time I can get those opposing takes, depending on just where I am at a given time and where attitudes are. I was under whelmed with both Quiet Man and The Searchers and I?m sure I was held back by my stupid preconceived notions about Westerns and even John Wayne who I never liked much (although that?s changing a bit now). Even something as simple and variable as what kind of mood I'm in at any given time might effect how ready I am for a particular film.

 

You don't know how much I identify with this - I just watched Stagecoach for about the tenth or twelfth time, and I loved it! That's a first for me! I always felt kind of underwhelmed by it before. I think your posts here really helped me to see it in a new light..... before, I saw it as an action adventure, no more. But tonight, I couldn't help but notice what an art house feel it has...maybe it was the poor print, with the high contrast, but it was so interesting watching from this new perspective. The long, stretched-into-infinity shots really captivated me, as if they were filmed with a fisheye lens. The first I noticed was the long hall shot, of Dallas walking away from The Kid, lit from behind, and then the kid following her outside the little station... Almost everything about the final showdown had this skewed perspective as well, starting with the amazing shot of Tom Tyler and his partner, waaaaaay back at the deepest point in the background, so far away, with Ringo's white hat in the bottom left foreground, and that achingly long walk toward his fate. I wanted to jump out of my seat!

 

Anyway, I should thank you, and everyone else here for helping me finally be able to enjoy this movie - gosh, this one had all the Murnau touches filtered though Ford's gift for economic storytelling and epic composition. It was just brilliant! I want to sit down and watch it again now. But with the new restored print.

[movieman1957]

I find it amazing that you have watched a film 10 or 12 times that you didn't necessarily love. And then to come away with a whole new appreciation for it is something most interesting.

 

I'll sometimes go back and watch something I am not thrilled about because we may be talking about it but I don't recall a revelatory viewing, much less after that many viewings.

 

Maybe another film for my festival.

[MissGoddess]

wendy, what a wonderful post about how you come to appreciate movies and ford's in particular.

i know i sound like a drummer for Criterion, but i just cant recommend their restored DVD and bonus features for *Stagecoach*. I really recommend you rent it from Netflix, and please let me know what you think of Tag's little video "essay".

 

and by the way *stagecoach* is one of the films that i didn't get for the longest time; for me it was always a perfectly crafted western, but more entertaining than deep or meaningful. but now i can see so many tantallizing things about the different people and the worlds they represent...and the kinds of emotions they all bring in. and ford is about emotion in motion.

 

you might call his movies emotion pictures.

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Dec 1, 2010 11:37 PM

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I find it amazing that you have watched a film 10 or 12 times that you didn't necessarily love. And then to come away with a whole new appreciation for it is something most interesting.

>

> I'll sometimes go back and watch something I am not thrilled about because we may be talking about it but I don't recall a revelatory viewing, much less after that many viewings.

>

> Maybe another film for my festival.

 

 

I'll tell you, movieman, I would only do this with a Ford film.

 

I also should clarify that watching has taken place over a number of years. I keep trying!

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=MissGoddess wrote:}{quote}

> wendy, what a wonderful post about how you come to appreciate movies and ford's in particular.

> i know i sound like a drummer for Criterion, but i just cant recommend their restored DVD and bonus features for *Stagecoach*. I really recommend you rent it from Netflix, and please let me know what you think of Tag's little video "essay".

 

I just bought it! Amazon had a good deal, and I figured I'd get it quicker if I bought it than renting it from Netflix. Do you suppose that they can get it to me in one day, so I can post caps here? Probably not.

 

> and by the way *stagecoach* is one of the films that i didn't get for the longest time; for me it was always a perfectly crafted western, but more entertaining than deep or meaningful. but now i can see so many tantallizing things about the different people and the worlds they represent...and the kinds of emotions they all bring in. and ford is about emotion in motion.

> you might call his movies emotion pictures.

 

*The Quiet Man* yesterday and Laffite's post about the swirling music really got me thinking about Ford's use of sound - music, silence and dialogue. He really is still a silent director, as most of the old school fellows were. But he makes no compromise with sound at all.... his films are filled with long, long passages in which no talking happens. The music will many times do the talking for the characters, but most everything is wordless. When you do get speeches, they are terse and to the point.

 

I saw a lot of Citizen Kane in Stagecoach too this time - it woudl be cool if you were to compare the two movies side by side.

 

I noticed when Ringo walks Dallas back to her "place" and they are walking further and further into the red light district, the music playing in the background is, "She is More to Be Pitied than Censured."

 

At the old concert hall on the Bowery,

'Round a table were seated one night,

A crowd of young fellows carousing

With them life seemed cheerful and bright.

At the very next table was seated

A girl who had fallen to shame,

All the young fellows jeered at her weakness,

Till they heard an old woman explain:

 

 

chorus: She is more to be pitied than censured,

She is more to be helped than despised.

She is only a lassie who ventured

On life's stormy path, ill-advised;

Do not scorn her with words fierce and bitter

Do not laugh at her shame and downfall.

For a moment, just stop and consider

That a man was the cause of it all.

 

 

There's an old-fashioned church 'round the corner

Where the neighbors all gathered one day,

While the parson was preaching a sermon

O'ere a soul that had just passed away;

'Twas this same wayward girl from the Bow'ry

Who a life of adventure had led.

Did the clergyman jeer at her downfall?

No! He asked for God's mercy, and said:

 

She is more to be pitied than censured,

She is more to be helped than despised.

She is only a lassie who ventured

On life's stormy path, ill-advised;

Do not scorn her with words fierce and bitter

Do not laugh at her shame and downfall.

For a moment, just stop and consider

That a man was the cause of it all.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Dec 2, 2010 8:35 AM

[laffite]

*Jackie*, thank you for printing out that song. I loved reading it. It doesn?t make for great poetry (I know, it?s only a song) but it?s fun to read a story or ballad in that form. The meter maybe a little choppy but it rhymes and it?s fun. Good catch too on how you saw the affinity of the song and the action.

 

I know my classics but am short on traditional songs and I should go to IMBD to see what titles were used in *Fort Apache* (I know, your song is from *Stagecoach* ), so many familiar tunes. Some of them so familiar than even I know them. I mentioned before how in former times I would scoff at the use of familiar songs in a given film because the associations take me out of the film in a way that original music might not. Yet I am coming round because Ford gets away with it (now) with me.

 

I?ve seen *Stagecoach* only twice and not too recently but I see it?s stream-able on NefF , I am so in a Fordian groove (it's all you guyses fault, you know ), I may try to take it in after work late tonight.

 

Jackie, you wrote, re *Stagecoach* *?Amazon had a good deal, and I figured I'd get it quicker if I bought it than renting it from Netflix. Do you suppose that they can get it to me in one day, so I can post caps here? Probably not. ?*

 

Can?t wait I want to see your choices.

 

After the first viewing of *Fort Apache* I was hoping to build a case that Thursday could be a Classical figure, the not-so-bad guy with a flaw, but after the second viewing yesterday I find that?s a hard sell. He?s just too much of SOB. It?s bad form to try and improve on Ford but I wish that Thursday had been depicted as a little grayer (and maybe with a couple of fine white spots here and there). That way we can see him as a fundamentally decent man who had a weak spot that did him in. Or can we still say that? I don't know. It?s hard to find any real decency. It?s been pointed out by someone that sending O?Rourke back before the fateful battle (more like a slaughter) was essentially a selfish act, he was looking out for his daughter. And I?m not even sure that the apology to O?Rourke senior was much of a palliative. It?s probably easy for a guy like Owen Thursday to apologize where there is protocol involved?after all, Thursday is all protocol. He can admit his mistake and even come off well in doing it. I?m no military historian but it?s clear that there have been and will be more Owen Thursdays (in fact, there is something uncomfortably familiar about all this within our own time) in the real world for he does represent a certain military cast of mind, a certain TYPE (the representation of which is a Classical idea), excessively rigid with hubris to match and who therefore can make egregious mistakes that shock us. He is no hearts-and-mind guy, that?s for sure. That role was York?s but it was all for naught. Owen won?t listen and innocent people die over the perceived insolence of Cochise. Or was it that Thursday was determined to make a name for himself to show those who dared send him to Fort Apache. Probably both.

 

Here are a few caps for my nascent scrapbook of Fordian action shots:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Correct me, but it seems to me that Ford doesn?t rely too much on the close up. But when he does he punches it, like here with the Duke. (Even I can remember Wayne?s introduction in *Stagecoach*, he gets a medium shot and then the camera ostentatiously zooms in on him as if to say, ?Hears the Duke.?) The cap above is of course the moment when Thursday has commandeered his horse and saber. I had a mischievous notion when, just prior to that when Thursday was dismounted and floundering about in the dust, that he might say, ?My Kingdom for a Horse, My Kingdom for a horse!.? There is something pathetic about Thursdays justification for claiming the horse and the saber and saying, ?I must return to my Command.? A Command that he has destroyed.

 

=

[fredbaetz]

I always thought that Thursday knew he was most likely be killed and that to die a hero's death was something that appealed to him. That would show the "SOB"'s in D.C. who posted him there that he was still the hero of the Civil War and if others died with him,well, that was their duty to go down with the commanding officer. ....

[rohanaka]

Oh my golly......... SO much to read.. and NO time to do it.

 

Dadgum!!! I have been so busy these past few days I have only been able to just glance through the posts here so will have to come back another time to enjoy them.

 

For now I just wanted to pop in and say THANKS, dear Pirate Dude, for stirring up the dust around all things "Fordian" for us again... I will look forward to having more time to reading your posts...

 

OH.. and Jackie... I only caught a glimpse of yours... but did my eyes decieve me.. or did you say that you recently watched not ONLY Stagecoach.. (sigh..) but TQM all in the same day.. talk about a film fest!!! I was only able to catch a few moments of SC when it was on last night.. but now am wishing I had time to pull out my DVD and watch

 

And OH my golly.. how LONG has it been since I got to have a TQM fix?????????? ha.. (color me.. green with envy)

 

I will look forward to reading your posts, folks, as soon as time allows..

[lzcutter]

*I find it amazing that you have watched a film 10 or 12 times that you didn't necessarily love. And then to come away with a whole new appreciation for it is something most interesting.*

 

Chris,

 

That's one of the joys of watching a John Ford film. There's the film that plays out and seems to be what the movie is about. And then, there are the layers of the story that are just waiting to be peeled back so they can reveal themselves.

 

He seems to do it with every film and every genre.

[laffite]

>I always thought that Thursday knew he was most likely be killed and that to die a hero's death was something that appealed to him. That would show the "SOB"'s in D.C. who posted him there that he was still the hero of the Civil War and if others died with him,well, that was their duty to go down with the commanding officer. ....

 

Fred, your point is so well taken that I?m going to retract something I said.

 

But first this?I am not persuaded that Thursday?s original idea was to martyr himself. Maybe that?s not quite what you meant, so I may be out in left field. I believe he wanted to win. He wanted much more to be a live hero than a dead one. Perhaps there was a latent desire for martyrdom, who knows. But If he had some sort of pathology that meant throwing himself to the wolves for the sake dying a hero?s death, it would detract in other respects the folly of his final decision to attack. I think I would rather believe that his rigid cast of mind and his excessive arrogance is what brought him down, not a suicide mentality. IMO it?s a better story that way, FWIW

 

But your observation tears to tatters my statement: *?There is something pathetic about Thursdays justification for claiming the horse and the saber and saying, ?I must return to my Command.? A Command that he has destroyed.?*

 

Well, it might SEEM pathetic in a way, but you are quite right, Fred, that at that point, with the ship going down, he DID want to be there, not only because that?s what Commanding Officers do, but because he fashioned himself a hero and he wanted to be remembered as fighting to the end. Yes, perhaps he felt that this would show them. Did it occur to him that by exercising good leadership and establishing the peace would have accomplished the same thing? Perhaps not in his mind, as you allude.

[MissGoddess]

> And OH my golly.. how LONG has it been since I got to have a TQM fix?????????? ha.. (color me.. green with envy)

>

 

Ro---if I may interrupt for a Public John Wayne Service Announcement (PJWSA)...there's no *Stagecoach* or *The Quiet Man*, but on the 22nd TCM is airing 24 hours of the Duke, including

*Fort Apache* and a total of five of his films with Ford, *Laffite*, for your viewing pleasure (one

hopes ). Here's the full schedule (EST):

 

*December 22, 2010*

 

6:00 AM Rio Lobo (1970)

A Civil War veteran searches for the traitor behind a friend's death. Cast: John Wayne, Jorge Rivero, Jack Elam. Dir: Howard Hawks. C-114 mins, TV-PG, CC, Letterbox Format

 

8:00 AM Fort Apache (1948)

An experienced cavalry officer tries to keep his new, by-the-books commander from triggering an Indian war. Cast: John Wayne, Henry Fonda, Shirley Temple. Dir: John Ford. BW-128 mins, TV-PG, CC, DVS

 

10:15 AM She Wore A Yellow Ribbon (1949)

An aging Cavalry officer tries to prevent an Indian war in the last days before his retirement. Cast: John Wayne, Joanne Dru, Ben Johnson. Dir: John Ford. C-104 mins, TV-PG, CC, DVS

 

12:00 PM Rio Grande (1950)

A cavalry unit located on the Mexican border must control Indian uprisings. Cast: John Wayne, Maureen O'Hara, Ben Johnson. Dir: John Ford. BW-105 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

1:45 PM Searchers, The (1956)

An Indian-hating Civil War veteran tracks down the tribe that slaughtered his family and kidnapped his niece. Cast: John Wayne, Jeffrey Hunter, Natalie Wood. Dir: John Ford. C-119 mins, TV-PG, CC, Letterbox Format

 

3:45 PM 3 Godfathers (1948)

Three outlaws on the run risk their freedom and their lives to return a newborn to civilization. Cast: John Wayne, Pedro Armendariz, Harry Carey, Jr. Dir: John Ford. C-106 mins, TV-G, CC

 

5:45 PM Sons of Katie Elder, The (1965)

A ranch-owner's four sons vow to avenge their father's death. Cast: John Wayne, Dean Martin, Martha Hyer. Dir: Henry Hathaway. C-122 mins, TV-14, CC, Letterbox Format

 

8:00 PM True Grit (1969)

A young girl recruits an aging U.S. marshal to help avenge her father's death. Cast: John Wayne, Kim Darby, Glen Campbell. Dir: Henry Hathaway. C-128 mins, TV-14, CC, Letterbox Format

 

10:15 PM Rio Bravo (1959)

A sheriff enlists a drunk, a kid and an old man to help him fight off a ruthless cattle baron. Cast: John Wayne, Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson. Dir: Howard Hawks. C-141 mins, TV-14, CC, Letterbox Format

 

12:45 AM McLintock! (1963)

A cattle baron fights to tame the West and his estranged wife. Cast: John Wayne, Maureen O'Hara, Stefanie Powers. Dir: Andrew V. McLaglen. C-127 mins, TV-PG, CC, Letterbox Format

 

3:00 AM Big Jake (1971)

A rancher leads the posse out to recover his kidnapped grandson. Cast: John Wayne, Richard Boone, Patrick Wayne. Dir: George Sherman. C-110 mins, TV-14, CC, Letterbox Format

 

5:00 AM Man From Monterey, The (1933)

A U.S. Cavalry officer tries to protect Spanish landowners in California. Cast: John Wayne, Lillian Leighton, Donald Reed. Dir: Mack V. Wright. BW-57 mins, TV-G, CC

[movieman1957]

It only makes sense as that is the day the new "True Grit" opens. (If I recall correctly.)

[rohanaka]

THANKS, little missy, for that "PJWSA" ha. That is the first day that starts my Christmas vacation from work, so now I will be wrapping presents, baking cookies.. and drinking egg nog with the DUKE, ha.

 

Woo hoo, what a selection! (even if they DID leave off my all time favorite movie, ha.. sigh.. guess I will have to break out my VHS tape soon, just to get my fix, ha)

 

But wow.. they have some good choices otherwise.. 3 Godfathers!! (woo hoo.. I love that movie... and this time I will try to get a decent taping of it.. the last time I taped it I was taping "over" a tape.. and it did not turn out so well) and also.. True Grit.. AND Big Jake.. yeehaw.. I will try to get a copy of those two this time around as well.

 

The only one on the list I have never seen before is the last one (Man from Monterey) I am wondering if it is in that 25 films collection DVD I have of his early (and not so well know) stepping stone films.. I will have to look.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

[wouldbestar]

Folks, I cheered like crazy when John Wayne went up to get his Oscar for True Grit because he?d been so good in it as well as other movies. But I?ve seen trailers and previews of the new version and it looks like a future classic to me. I?m certain ?Duke? fans will say Jeff Bridges isn?t his equal even if he is or-horrors-better but if the film really is that great I hope everyone will keep an open mind. I?m waiting with ticket price in hand.

[laffite]

>For now I just wanted to pop in and say THANKS, dear Pirate Dude, for stirring up the dust around all things "Fordian" for us again

 

Well, thank you, *Rohanaka*, for helping me do it. There is something infectious the way you all just carry on about things Fordian. And I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon either, I'm into it. I have a friend who watches the old movies now and then and I'm trying to get him to watch Fort Apache. He and his wife are sort of like the old me, what Westerns? And nice to hear from you again, the eponymous creator (did I finally use that word right?) of this time-honored, venerable old thread of the Old West. You are busy with life, understandable, but do drop by once in awhile. We need to hear from our leader,

 

*Miss Goddess* Thanks for the alert. I'm glad to know of it and so soon. This will give time to clear the DVR. Here's my for sure: *SWAYR, Rio Grande, The Searchers* (I'll curious to see if I do better with this one), *3 Godfathers,* and yes, *True Grit*, a movie I haven't seen . I hope I'm allowed to say that without being ostracized As you can see, I'm more interested in the 40s and 50s. The remaining two cavalry films are, of course, a must.

[movieman1957]

Ostracized? No sir. A good deal of the fun is listening to someone who hasn't seen something that we are more familiar with to see how you think of it. It is a chance for us to get a different perspective.

 

Also, if you were who am I going to talk to about the finer points of Brahms?

 

Edited by: movieman1957 on Dec 3, 2010 4:09 PM. It helps to have all the words in there.

[laffite]

>Also, if you were who am I going to talk to about the finer points of Brahms?

 

Hmm, I wonder what Brahms would have looked like on a horse. You see how my mind goes these days. I may be in the early stages of madness. But the truth, I've always been a little fascinated with the Old West, I just could never get into the movies. For awhile I was watching a lot of these programs on the History Channel. There was an excellent show on the OK Corral incident. They showed diagrams where everyone was standing, how the shooting went...and the reenactment was delicious. Some of those are very realistically done and fun to watch. Amazing how Wyatt survived that. And what was that program, Western Tech, with Carradine as host? I thought those entertaining.

[MissGoddess]

I saw that OK Corral episode, too! I love the History Channel programs on the old west. Did you see the one about Jesse James and all the stuff he was into, and how he may not have really died when they shot him in the back? I was so fascinated.

 

And let me say again how wonderful it is you're getting into these films and any time someone comes 'fresh' to old favorites it renews the pleasure for the rest of us. And you write your opinions so well, it's great to have new perspectives.

 

Yee Haw Je ne sais quoi!

[fredbaetz]

laffite, I compeletly agree with you that Thursday's aim was not to become a marytr when he took his command into the canyon.He never thought these "breech clothed digger indians" were in any way smart enough to outwit him.I believe that occured to him the moment York gave him his horse and saber.If he returned to the troop he was the hero again of the Civil War. If he ever though of his daughter at all in those few mad moments he knew she would marry O'Rourke, if he thought of her at all, which I don't think he did. It wasn't suicide for him to ride back to his death, it was the GLORY....Something he prized more then life....

 

Edited by: fredbaetz on Dec 3, 2010 5:11 PM

[JackFavell]

Laffite, I loved your post, but I haven't the brain to respond right now, due to lack of sleep and some weird stuff happening here at home. I want to answer, but it may not be until Monday or so.

 

Although I am unsure who Thursday is thinking of in his actions at the beginning of the battle, after the initial debacle of The Little Big Horn (let's just call it that for lack of a better name), I think Thursday comes to realize his own folly. His actions, commandeering the horse and riding back to his doomed men, show that he sees his own hubris, and must redeem himself in the eyes of his men. The saddest part of the movie for me is watching him try to make reparation in a small way, for the full knowledge of what he has wrought is now upon him. His eyes are opened. The look he gives to Collingwood who helps him to drink and recuperate is one of stunned comprehension. His trying in the end to gain the respect back of these men who had lost respect for him completely is a bitter and also a moving thing, for it is too late, and yet the men respond to him with kindness and an understanding that he never showed them. It's a beautifully noble, if useless way for them to die. Thursday gains back some nobility by dying with them, and understanding a bit of their worth at the last.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Dec 3, 2010 5:32 PM

[laffite]

Oh, Jackie, you are so persuasive and I?m sure you must be right. But I couldn?t see that at the time. When he gets back to the pit, he apologizes twice. The first time is when he is told by O?Rourke senior, ?You?re late,? and that was a sort of tongue and cheek thing, the second time he apologizes (after which O?Rourke says, ?Save it for our grandchildren?) I couldn?t understand that. I could not see that he could make this turn around, he just didn?t seem to have that flexibility, even in those harrowing circumstances. I could not believe he could apologize for ordering the ill-conceived attack, it didn?t ring true for me. And I?m still not sure I?m persuaded. It may have not played that way to me but I feel deep down now that you are right about it.

[laffite]

Yes, Fred, you are right. Reading you and Jackie on this make me realize that I didn't really have the correct take on this. You and Jackie are putting on a clinic for me.