Western Movie Rambles

[JackFavell]

I understand, it's probably another case where the same movie plays differently to different people, and that's a great thing!

 

I am not saying that he turns all noble, but I do feel it's in the classic vein - it can't be a tragedy unless the hero sees his own fatal flaw before he goes to his doom.

 

It's too little too late though.

[fredbaetz]

Jackie, My Dear, I do agree that in those last few moments Thursday could have seen the folly of his ways, but as you said it was too late. He was a class snob from the beginning and as evident a racial one also. Fonda's portroyal is superb and over shadows Wayne's role, althought Wayne delivers beautifully as does the rest of the cast. As much as I love "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" and I do, I believe "Fort Apache" is one of Fords masterpieces and his first real shot at "Print the Legend"....

[rohanaka]

Hello there, Laffite,

 

I am liking how you are truly examining Thursday from all sides. He is a very well written (and completely examination-worthy) sort of character. "Overwhelming Arrogance" as a major (if not the SOLE) character trait in a human being is truly (to me) one of the most EASY to criticize in someone. (which is why I usually describe him as someone that I LOVE to hate) Truthfully,(much to my own regret) I have so little patience with people of this nature, that it sometimes tends to bring out the "arrogant" side of me when I speak to them. (but I am working on that, ha)

 

But honestly.. to try and be as fair as possible, there has to be MORE to someone like Thursday than just their own sense of "self-importance". Even the MOST "self-loved and admired" person has SOMETHING else motivating them.. at least sometimes. Though truly.. it CAN be hard to find, sometimes. Because admittedly.. by definition, one who is as "self-important" as Thursday was will have his own opinions, glory, and worth as the primary reason for almost EVERYTHING they do.

 

But I think Thursday's own little "world" also spun on the axis of "military correctness" and following "the letter" of the law. (granted.. he did it with a sense of pride.. as in: "See what a Great Leader am I" ) But in some ways, he was not "totally" wrong. It IS important to implement and expect the men under your command to follow the right procedures (because a good military commander IS all about taking leadership and making command decisions.. no one wants to follow a "wishy washy, "I can't make up my mind" kinda guy)

 

Yet as important as that can be (in making sure that a soldier is trained, ready, and able to serve) a truly GOOD leader would also allow for the need to make each decision FIT the surroundings, circumstance, and situation. And this more than anything was Thursday's greatest error in command.

 

The men who were at Ft Apache knew their "enemy" (or adversary.. ha. whatever word may fit better) far better than he did, and they understood how the Indians THOUGHT and what sort of fight they were up against. But this flew in the face of Thursday's "cookie cutter" approach to leadership.. HIS way was the THE military way.. and there was NO re-writing that handbook. So of course, he refused to listen to those who COULD have enabled him to be a TRULY great leader.

 

And sadly.. at the end.. I think he saw (with eyes wide open) the error of that sort of thinking, and as some may have suggested already.. he returned to face the final battle not only for his "own" glory.. but also out of respect for the fact that he had led these poor men to their fate.. and now he was going to see things through to their ultimate end (no matter how in error he was) because as their leader, THAT was the right, and honorable, and "military" thing to do. At that point, it was not like he could call a "time out" and regroup and start over. They were all going down.. and he was still the leader, right or wrong, no matter WHAT the situation had become.

 

I don't honestly know if he saw himself (at that point) as someone who would go down "in glory" for dying in battle or not. It would fit with his character to still have that has his primary motivation. But I think it may have gone deeper than that. Because I do think he saw his return to battle as maybe a genuine moment of personal integrity, if you will (which is somewhat different than "pride") And he chose to do what was he thought was honorable even in the face of his obvious failure. And it most likely COULD even have been a matter of "pride" for him to do this, but I agree with Jackie that he also was thinking of his men (maybe for the first time) and he saw (and respected) their honor in the face of his failure as well.

 

I may be wrong.. I likely should go back and watch it all again.. (and WHO knows if that is how I even THOUGHT of this the LAST time.. ha.. sometimes (like you) I will see a film ONE way.. and then reexamine it again in a whole new way later on) but that is how I am remembering it now.. (and I freely admit that all this chat may have even colored some of my thoughts.. but hey.. once again.. that is the benefit of someone like you coming along and striking up a whole new chat on an old favorite like this one)

 

Laffite says: the eponymous creator (did I finally use that word right?) of this time-honored, venerable old thread of the Old West. You are busy with life, understandable, but do drop by once in awhile. We need to hear from our leader

 

YOU are too kind, sir. And I must confess... (and without apology) I COMPLETELY copied Miss GODDESS and her wonderful "Movie Rambles" idea when starting this thread. (I think I even mentioned that in my opening post, lo those many, many posts ago). So it is to HER we owe the whole idea, I am sure. And I truly am glad to see that this thread has been such a great place to spark some good conversation about so many truly fine films. (hey.. on occassion we even discus NON-Ford..and non-John Wayne films just for fun!! HA)

 

And PS.. I HAVE been busy lately and I do miss hanging out here.. so I look forward to it when I can.. but BOY, do you have ME pegged all wrong, ha. I am no leader.. more like just a "wannabe" around such esteemed company as the folks who hang out here.. but BOY, oh boy, do I enjoy the "coattail ride") :-)

[rohanaka]

OH.. and PS: (because I just have not blabbed enough already.. HA)

 

Here's my for sure: SWAYR, Rio Grande, The Searchers (I'll curious to see if I do better with this one), 3 Godfathers, and yes, True Grit, a movie I haven't seen

 

You are really going all out, sir. I am proud of you for not just "dipping you toe" in the Western waters.. ha. You are diving in headlong for sure.

 

Those are all among my more favorite Duke Westerns. (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Stagecoach, Hondo, and Big Jake, and Rio Bravo would round out the list as well) As for the Searchers.. now THAT one is likely my most fave of his westerns (and likely my most FAVE Fordie western too) but honestly. it goes back and forth between TMWSLV depending on what mood I am in, ha) And Ethan Edwards had to be one of Wayne's most complex and thought-provoking characters ever, so I will be interested to hear your thoughts for sure.

 

At any rate... I hope you enjoy the film fest, sir. And I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on ALL of them in fact (ha.. boy are YOU going to be busy. ha) I am especially interested in hearing your thoughts on TG, since you have not seen it. Now I have to say, it is a MUCH "bolder and brasher" sort of Duke.. (and may not be as much to your liking if you were more into the earlier westerns) but I truly LOVE his performance in this film... absolutely NOTHING subtle about it.. (unlike some of his other roles we have discussed) but truly entertaining.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Dec 4, 2010 1:21 PM (because HOW could I have forgotten to list Rio Bravo???????????)

[movieman1957]

This is all grand. And the possibility of talking Ford for a couple of weeks (or maybe reading might be more accurate) is tantalizing.

 

We need to plan our viewing so we can all watch the same thing over the course of a couple of days and then let it all begin.

[lzcutter]

*This is all grand. And the possibility of talking Ford for a couple of weeks (or maybe reading might be more accurate) is tantalizing.*

 

Chris,

 

I'm with you!

 

It's a bit difficult for me because I am away from my DVD collection and only have one Ford film on my tivo and its not a western. I'm hoping to watch *They Were Expendable* tonight or tomorrow.

 

But I am always up for Ford and western talk though I may be a bit rusty on some details.

 

Anyone else?

 

Edited by: lzcutter on Dec 4, 2010 5:34 PM

[JakeHolman]

> {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

> *This is all grand. And the possibility of talking Ford for a couple of weeks (or maybe reading might be more accurate) is tantalizing.*

>

> Chris,

>

> I'm with you!

>

> It's a bit difficult for me because I am away from my DVD collection and only have one Ford film on my tivo and its not a western. I'm hoping to watch *They Were Expendable* tonight or tomorrow.

>

> But I am always up for Ford and western talk though I may be a bit rusty on some details.

>

> Anyone else?

>

> Edited by: lzcutter on Dec 4, 2010 5:34 PM

 

*But I am always up for Ford and western talk though I may be a bit rusty on some details.*

 

No you are not...you are the best at it when you are on...

 

I did catch the other day when you said: "You are the daughter of a Proud Southern Woman.

 

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=fredbaetz wrote:}{quote}

> Jackie, My Dear, I do agree that in those last few moments Thursday could have seen the folly of his ways, but as you said it was too late. He was a class snob from the beginning and as evident a racial one also. Fonda's portroyal is superb and over shadows Wayne's role, althought Wayne delivers beautifully as does the rest of the cast. As much as I love "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" and I do, I believe "Fort Apache" is one of Fords masterpieces and his first real shot at "Print the Legend"....

 

 

fred- that was so well put! Like I said before this is probably my favorite Wayne role, he has so much shading and depth, is thoughtful and so heroic to my eye. But your right, Fonda is incredible, and every time I watch it, I think more highly of the performances and the movie itself.

 

Lz and Chris - I'm in! Wednesday I'll spend the day glued to my TV! Not a chore....

[MissGoddess]

Oh count me in, please, though unfortunately I will have to work on the 22nd so I will miss most of the movies...but I have seen them all and have most on DVD.

 

Jackie---you I believe were the one who alerted me to the exchange between

Thursday and O'Roarke at the climax...all the times I watched I had missed

that moment, so critical to opening a dimension of humanity in Thursday's

character. So fleeting a moment, Ford definitely insists you pay attention...close.

 

And that for me is the lingering magic of Ford's films, no matter how many times I revisit

them, I find something new...something that is not merely novel but honest and interesting.

[movieman1957]

I have most of them already so whatever somebody wants to talk about first just say the word and we'll get ready.

 

I may take a few days before Christmas and this may be one of them.

[lzcutter]

Rats, the day of the Wayne films is the day before I return home for the holidays. The only film on the list that I haven't seen many times is *3 Godfathers*. I think I have a copy of it from last year but am not sure.

 

I will try to figure out something so I can join the conversation on that one!

[JackFavell]

That's right, MissG, I think I asked you what you thought of that exchange - if he was actually sending O'Roarke back to save him, or to humiliate him? I like that it's left a bit mysterious, and that, as you say, Ford makes you pay CLOSE attention.

[rohanaka]

We need to plan our viewing

 

Well.. since I am out here in the middle, right smack between all you folks (ha... think of me as the "cheese" in our little East Coast/West Coast sandwich.. HA) everybody just come on over to my house and we'll have a "Duke Day Film Fest". We can drink "teetotaling" egg nog and we'll bake cookies while we watch (and then we can have one of those "cookie trade" things going on afterward where we all get to share and take home what we made.. ha..

 

OH.. and lest you think I am only talking to the gals.. Guys... you can come as well... and bring your recipes... because real men CAN bake cookies TOO, ya know.

 

Only.. ugh. I just thought of this... NOBODY tell the Grey Dude. If HE shows up he will try to pawn off some sort of Sawdust and SaurKraut cookie on us and THEN we'd all be DOOMED!! HA.

[laffite]

Amidst all the *Duke Day Film Fest* talk, can I duck in an alert for a film that will air far in advance of that. We don't want to crowd The Duke.

 

*Warlock* is coming on Tuesday, Dec 7 at 8pm EST. You?ve probably all seen it. I rented it recently and saw most of it, but the DVD malfunctioned right near the end ?but I did not order a replacement when I saw the schedule.

 

No spoilers (I think)

 

It's *Henry Fonda* again. He is a gunfighter but not like in *Clementine* (it seems to me). Same bird, but of a different feather, softer around the edges. If there?s such a thing as a Gentleman Gunfighter, he may be it. He has the darker aspects of that profession, he?s a tough SOB?but he is polished, well-spoken, great with the ladies, and yet intimidating when he has to be. As a reminder I mention *Richard Widmark*, *Anthony Quinn*, and *Dorothy Malone* who are all good?as well as *DeForest Kelley*. Yes, DeForest Kelley. In *The Law and Jake Wade* he was a gang member but with a low profile. In *Warlock*, he plays the same type, but he is front and center and does very, very well?maybe even great. (Way to go, Bones!). ?Sophisticated? is a stuffy adjective but it seems to apply to *Warlock*. It has a touch of class. I can?t wait to see the ending

 

*Rohanaka*, your little Duke Day House Party sounds great, but I'm a little worried about the "teetotalling" thing. I wanted to bring some Vintage Jamaican Rum, fresh from recent plunder. If I'm unable to do that, I may have to, uh, pass on the festivities (Ooh I'm going to miss those cookies)

[JackFavell]

How about rum truffles, Laffite? Yummy! Chocolate and Rum! A perfect combo.

[JackFavell]

How about rum truffles, Laffite? Yummy! Chocolate and Rum! A perfect combo.

 

Great choice of Warlock! I love how you are jumping into the western side of town, Monsieur. No water, but a prairie schooner might just take the place of your beloved ship, for a little while at least!

[MissGoddess]

Laffite, you and i can duck round back and polish off that bottle of rum...i'll bring some cloves to chew on so Ro will think we just ate some fruitcake.

[rohanaka]

Warlock is coming on Tuesday, Dec 7 at 8pm EST

 

That is one I have heard of (from others) but have not seen, myself. I am going to be busy that evening w/ about 30 little girls at a scouting event.. but I will try to set the VCR before I go!

 

And RE:

 

I'm a little worried about the "teetotalling" thing

 

Ha.. well, my friend surely we can work SOMETHING out.. (because alas we are a totally teetotaling house) but hmm.. let's see...

 

We can leave it as a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing. ha, and I promise not to do any sort of breath "sniff" check when you show up (if you decide to take Miss G up on her offer or try some of Jackie's Rum Truffles,) because you HAVE to be there.. it would JUST not be the same w/ out you.

 

Oh boy.. I can picture it now.. there you three will be with your rosey cheeks and these big GRINS on your faces and you'll all be singing a cheerful tune at the tops of your lungs.. and see, I will just think it is because your hearts are warm and all aglow w/ the holiday spirit and the smell of cookies in the air.. ha. :-)

[movieman1957]

Ro:

 

I'd be there in a heartbeat with chocolate chip cookies.

 

Lafitte:

 

"Warlock" is a really interesting western. Not much on action but plenty of head games and some pretty good performances.

 

Lynn:

 

I can help if needed.

[laffite]

*Jackie* says, *?How about rum truffles, Laffite? Yummy! Chocolate and Rum! A perfect combo.?*

 

Oh my, what an idea. Everything goes good with rum and with chocolate too. But to have then together, oh, shamefully delightful. Hey, *Rohanaka*, can we put *Jackie Favell* in charge of the refreshments? I won?t tell you why if you don?t ask.

 

*Miss G* says: *Laffite, you and i can duck round back and polish off that bottle of rum...i'll bring some cloves to chew on so Ro will think we just ate some fruitcake. *

 

?and then we can start another. I have a whole case. It will be a lot of fun. Duke who? Please pass the cloves.

 

*Rohanaka* says: *??because you HAVE to be there.. it would JUST not be the same w/ out you.?*

 

Oh, Ro, you are so sweet?I can see you would be a hostess most kind.

 

*Rohanaka* continues: *Oh boy.. I can picture it now.. there you three will be with your rosey cheeks and these big GRINS on your faces and you'll all be singing a cheerful tune at the tops of your lungs.. and see, I will just think it is because your hearts are warm and all aglow w/ the holiday spirit and the smell of cookies in the air.. ha. :-)*

 

What a tableau! What me, movies? Oh, what kind of cookies? The cookies, the cookies!!!

 

And *Movieman Chris* ducks in at the last minute with the answer: *"I'd be there in a heartbeat with chocolate chip cookies."*

 

Good choice! You're a great go-to guy, Chris, when it comes to the cookies.

 

==

 

Edited by: laffite on Dec 5, 2010 12:13 PM

[laffite]

*"Warlock" is a really interesting western. Not much on action but plenty of head games and some pretty good performances.*

 

I am probably not the right person to really know this, but Warlock seems an anomaly among Westerns. As you indicate, there are none of the sometime and gratuitous action sequences that are so often present in many Westerns (to appease the restless). It almost plays like straight drama. And yes, too, the story has its puzzlements.

[fredbaetz]

If anyone is interested I just saw the :"John Wayne/John Ford Revised Collection on Amazon for $17.99.This edition is missing "Stagecoach" and "Long Voyage Home" from original set. This includes The Seachers , Special Edition 2 disc /Ft. Apache/SWAYR/ They Were Expendable/3 Godfathers/Wings of Eagles/ Directed by John Ford { Peter B's tribute } ...All in all not a bad price....

 

Edited by: fredbaetz on Dec 5, 2010 3:45 PM

[wouldbestar]

Thanks to all of you I have a new respect for Fort Apache and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. I don?t know why I took so long. I?ll be watching them in a new light. I?ve also not seen Warlock and am looking forward to that as well.

 

If Izcutters?s plug for They Were Expendable gets folks to watch one of the best war films ever, she?s got a better record for gift giving than Old Santa?s come up with for a while. There are battle scenes but most of it is spent showing what our men and women dealt with on a regular basis and with little to work with but their courage, loyalty, and determination. Rather than glorify war, it shows it as it really is.

 

Thank you all again for turning my head around regarding films I need to take another look at. I enjoy this as I never come out of the tunnel the same place I came in and that?s what learning is about.

[MissGoddess]

i feel just the same, wouldbestar..as long as i've been allowed to hang around

these folks i've learned so much about movies i thought i already knew. before

you know it, i may turn smart due to the company here.

[JackFavell]

I am just going to sneak this photo in while I can - I just found it today, and if I miss this opportunity I may not get another chance.

 

Jack Stoney (who played a boat crew member) and Robert Montgomery on the set of They Were Expendable: