Western Movie Rambles

[moviefan1951]

> Yes, he was a "peacemaker for hire" and he wasn't the only one. Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson were both lawmen for hire so to speak. Both had careers on both sides of the law but found that by selling their guns to bring peace to places like Dodge City and Tombstone (and many stops in between) they could make a passable living.

 

Wasn't Randolph Scott's character in "Seven Men From Now" also in somewhat similar circumstances? Former outlaw turned sheriff or something? Or maybe I'm thinking of some other Randolph Scott movie...

 

> That's an interesting point. A strong presence is very intimidating to those who are weak. The weak tend to look for devious means to get around their supreme cowardice. They love to play hide and seek. One moment they are one thing, the next, another. Still, there's no getting around the truth. They are weak cowards.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. There are no bigger cowards than those who seek to take advantage or abuse others because they expect them to be easy targets. For example, men who try to disparage or oppress women, especially battered women, women who have gone through extreme psychological distress, women who have been assaulted and nearly killed by violent men. Those are probably the most cowardly men in the whole wide world. It is important for women never to allow themselves to be intimidated or oppressed by the weak and cowardly men of the world. Especially those who try to seem nice guys, but deep down they aren't really.

[rohanaka]

Oh you man in Grey... ha... I just remembered (after our little "throw down.. ha) I still wanted to respond to a couple more of your comments from last night...

 

haven't seen many Wayne flicks. This is the order of my favorite Wayne

characters that I have seen:

 

1. Sheriff John T. Chance (Rio Bravo)

2. Quirt Evans (Angel and the Badman)

3. Lt. JG "Rusty" Ryan (They Were Expendable)

4. The Ringo Kid (Stagecoach)

5. Tom Doniphon (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance)

6. Ethan Edwards (The Searchers)

7. Lt. Col. Kirby Yorke (Rio Grande)

8. Sean Thornton (The Quiet Man)

9. Thomas Dunson (Red River)

10. Col. John Marlowe (The Horse Soldiers)

11. Frank W. "Spig" Wead (The Wings of Eagles)

12. Jimmy McCoy, Jr. (Baby Face)

 

WHAT.... no HONDO?? No "Guns" Donovan????? What about MCCLINTOCK????? Or Rooster Cogburn?????? ha.

 

Actually you have a pretty good list going on... so far!! In fact... you have at least 3 that I know for SURE I've never seen... (the last 3) and also #9 that I don't think I've seen... but I MAY have... (it's on my list for the library.) I haven't been able to get #10 or 11 yet.. and I have only heard of #12 maybe on other time... so I think I have a ways to go mysefl... ha.

 

Yes, John T. Chance is very much a "white" character. He's not Ethan Edwards

 

Ah HAH!!!!!!!! (no mention of GREY....anywhere...)

 

I do believe Geoff and John are both caring

men, though.

 

I think you are right... and they ARE different (motivationally) but they do have a lot in common as well.

 

As of right now, "Stumpy" is my favorite Walter Brennan character.

 

Make me a list of some more of your faves for him... I like him in almost ANYTHING... but he has some really stand out moments in a lot of films... my ABSOLUTE fave for him is Pastor Pyle (in Sgt York) ... but I think Stumpy runs a VERY close second... and I am really getting close to making some adjustments for the rest of my list because of two recent films I have watched (To Have and Have Not AND My Darling Clementine... though.. in MDC he plays one MEAN monster to be sure.) But I have SO many other films I like him in.. it is really hard to choose favorites.

 

For me, Colorado is just a natural and those with an eye for talent notice this

quickly. Pat (Ward Bond) certainly noticed how good Colorado was and this is why I

believe he gave him such a responsible position. Nepotism probably got him the job,

but talent earned him trust. John trusts Pat's word but he doesn't fully believe it until

he sees the talent for himself.

 

You are right on target. He IS the real deal too, by the way.. not (as you say) a phony. And I think that is what gives his character so much appeal. In the "wrong hands" that much confidence could end up as arrogance... but Colorado wears it well.

 

I do believe he was judging Feathers. His opinion changed of her when he took the time to hear

her story.

 

I think you've got it pegged... John T was basing most of his opinions on what he had read in the handbill... but once he had a chance to see for himself the way things really were... he wasn't too stubborn to give her the chance she deserved... And by doing THAT... it made HIM the "Chance" she deserved as well... :-)

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[moviefan1951]

And speaking of Wyatt Earp - here's a funny story in the L.A. Times regarding Tombstone reenactors:

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tombstone1-2009apr01,0,7993323.story

 

Too many Wyatt Earps walking Tombstone's streets

In this Arizona town where the O.K. Corral gunfight is alive and well, a showdown has ensued between local reenactors and a stranger who rode into town with thespians ready to role-play.

 

By Nicholas Riccardi

 

6:00 PM PDT, March 31, 2009

 

 

Reporting from Tombstone, Ariz. ? Marshal Larry Talvy's phone rang. There was trouble in town. A bunch of men in black dusters with guns were walking down Allen Street. Again.

 

Talvy bolted uphill to the town's main drag, strode toward the armed men and laid down the law, New West style. Show me your permit, he said, or you'll be ticketed for an illegal street performance.

 

It's been 127 years since Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp fought the Clantons and McLouries at the O.K. Corral here, and Tombstone is still trying to get a handle on its gunslinger problem. Only the desperadoes are no longer brawling over cards or horses. They're fighting for tourist dollars.

 

The O.K. Corral gunfight has long been celebrated by Hollywood, from classics such as John Ford's "My Darling Clementine" to the 1994 film "Wyatt Earp." And for decades, local entrepreneurs and retirees indulging their western fetishes have put on their 19th century duds and re-created it along Tombstone streets. Between performances, gunmen from the various shows and the occasional black-garbed freelancer would mingle with tourists on the three blocks of Allen Street, which is closed to traffic and lined with raised wooden sidewalks, saloons and trinket shops.

 

Then, three years ago, a stranger rode in and vowed to shake up what he considered a moribund tourist trap. A showdown ensued between Tombstone residents who wanted to keep the streets as calm as possible and thespians with higher aspirations.

 

Stephen Keith, a onetime regular at Renaissance fairs who can hold forth on the similarities between the 1993 movie "Tombstone" and Wagner's "Ring" cycle of operas, founded the Tombstone Huckleberry Players. They were not content to simply re-create the shootout under a tented space inside the O.K. Corral. Instead, hoping to build a crowd for a new late afternoon show, the actors would walk down Allen Street, performing skits in character and leading tourists to the performance space.

 

Keith acknowledged there was resistance. Locals, he said, with no theater experience didn't like seasoned actors taking their favorite roles.

 

"Every old guy who retires and ties his white pony tail back and puts his name on his pickup truck comes here to be Wyatt Earp," said Keith, 49, who plays Doc Holliday. "I know how to work a crowd. I've been in theater for 32 years. This is what I do."

 

 

For more than a year, this town of 1,500 allowed the Huckleberry Players to do their act. But in November, a new mayor was elected, and he appointed Talvy to enforce the letter of the law. Mayor Dusty Escapule said complaints were coming in from merchants at one end of Allen Street whose customers were being swept up by Keith's troupe, and from rival gunfighter groups, who said the Huckleberry actors were pulling customers away from their shows.

 

So the City Council invoked a 1973 law that required a permit for streetperformances, and promptly turned down Keith's application. In January, Talvy issued his first citation. Four of the players faced misdemeanor charges that could lead to a maximum $600 fine and two years in jail.

 

Talvy faced off with the Huckleberry players again last month as they posed for photographs on Allen Street for Arizona Highways magazine. He threatened to cite them before eventually backing down.

 

Keith says he's stopped doing formal street performances and that now the law is simply out to get him. Talvy says he's just doing his job. Most Tombstone residents don't want to get between the two.

 

Ask a question about the issue at a local saloon or trinket shop and the place is likely to quickly go silent.

 

"You know, small-town politics," one local woman finally said apologetically before reverting to character as a 19th century showgirl. Many cite the curse an Indian is said to have placed on the settlement more than 100 years ago -- that there will never be two white men who live together here in peace. "It looks," Escapule said, "like the curse is still in effect."

 

 

It is the most famous showdown in Western history. On Oct. 26, 1881, the three Earp brothers -- one of whom, Virgil, was the town marshal -- and gambler Doc Holliday fought two pairs of brothers who were part of a gang of local rustlers. Three rustlers died and it sparked a feud that is believed to have led to Morgan Earp's shooting death shortly thereafter. The O.K. Corral shootout made Tombstone a legend and the place where people came to experience a bygone era -- and sometimes to re-create it.

 

"Every man in the United States born between 1942 and 1957 wanted to be a cowboy," said Mike Christie, 37, a computer consultant who plays Wyatt Earp in Keith's show. "When they retired from IBM or GE or wherever, they realized, 'I can do this.' And they moved here."

 

Skirmishes between different groups of reenactors were not unheard of, Escapule said. That's why the town passed the law requiring a permit. "We knew something had to be done to keep the peace in this town," he said.

 

Keith says he didn't intend to cause trouble. He was just trying to escape the snow.

 

He was dealing blackjack in a casino in Cripple Creek, Colo., and didn't know if he could survive another winter. Tombstone was just a place with a pleasant climate and promising prospects for an actor.

 

Once he arrived, he sized up the reenactment scene. In the daily show at the O.K. Corral, the dashing gunslingers were played by retirees.

 

"Last I read," one unhappy tourist wrote to True West magazine, "Billy Clanton was not 50 years old, didn't weigh 270 pounds and didn't have a flowing white beard and wear glasses." (Clanton, the youngest gunslinger in the fight, was 19.)

 

Keith assembled his own troupe and persuaded the owners of the Corral to let him take over the show. Then Keith and his company decided to expand their repertoire.

 

They added a 4:30 p.m. performance even though they knew that tourists cleared out of Tombstone well before sundown. They would lure them to their show with a "walk-down."

 

 

The players saw it as a service to all of Tombstone because it gave visitors a reason to linger. At first, town leaders ruled that the Huckleberry Players were simply walking to work in character and didn't need a performance permit. But then Escapule took office, and the law came after Keith in the form of Talvy, the newly appointed marshal. Talvy had been away for a couple of years -- a member of the National Guard, he was deployed to the Mexican border, then Iraq. He was startled by what he found when he returned. The main tourist drag, he believed, was devolving into chaos.

 

"I just can't afford to let anyone come around here and do things on their own," Talvy said.

 

The conflict has been covered prominently in the local paper (which Escapule owns), but folks are wary about discussing it. On a recent afternoon, the gun smoke was still clearing inside Six-Gun City, a restaurant where O.K. Corral shootings are reenacted by locals during the lunch hour. But when the grizzled gunslingers were asked about the dispute, they nervously deferred to the owner, Nora Carrafa.

 

"They should [allow] whatever they do for everybody," Carrafa said. "That's all."

 

At another nearby gun show site called Helldorado Town, which includes a miniature golf course and petting zoo, owner Jaye Kukowski said even though Keith is a competitor, what's happening to him is wrong.

 

"Pulling these guys off the street when the tourists absolutely loved it is like stabbing yourself in the foot," Kukowski said.

 

Some local reenactors agree that Keith is different than your average cowboy. But that doesn't mean he's better, they add.

 

"The difference between him and most of the actors in town is that they are reenactment actors," said George Turner, a retired Hollywood stuntman who goes by the name "Tombstone Skip." "He's a stage actor. It's more melodrama stuff. When you're doing reenacting, you have to be 100% accurate."

 

Keith has vowed to fight in court, saying the citation is an infringement of his free speech rights. He turned down a plea deal that would have allowed him to get off with a $75 fine, though two of his fellow performers have agreed to it. On a recent night, Keith and actor Impus Delectii (his legal name) watched "Tombstone" yet again in Keith's small home.

 

As the movie flickered on his flat screen television, Keith became melancholy during a scene in which a Shakespearean actor is killed in a stagecoach robbery and his companion scolds the citizenry for its indifference.

 

"That's Tombstone," Keith said. "You try to bring something fine into their ugly world and they shoot you for it."

[rohanaka]

I do believe John T. Chance had settled down, though. He had found his place. This is something many of us seek in life. A place where you are comfortable, respected, appreciated, and loved. Home.

 

Oh my golly Grey Guy... what is this?? Rio Bravo or... HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY!!! Mush... pure mush.. but I love every word you said!! :-)

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Quiet Gal -- I do believe John T. Chance had settled down, though. He

had found his place. This is something many of us seek in life. A place where you are

comfortable, respected, appreciated, and loved. Home.

 

Oh my golly Grey Guy... what is this?? Rio Bravo or... HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY!!!

Mush... pure mush.. but I love every word you said!!

 

Ohhh, what am I saying?! I'm anything but mushy! I'm a mean, horrible guy who hates

women. I meant to say, home is where women cook and clean for you.

 

 

You are right (could this be ME saying THAT to YOU!! )

I say again that I can't think of ANYONE else but Dean Martin as DUDE.... he was

terrific... I liked how he "gradually" worked his way back... he didn't go "all out". He

didn't have the confidence... but as time went on... he began to get it back.. along

with the "want to as well".

 

What I liked most is that Dude would turn the corner, then stumble, then pick himself

back up, only to stumble again. This made his pain and addiction feel all the more

real to me. I was actually reminded of "Frankie Machine" (Frank Sinatra) in

The Man with the Golden Arm while watching Dude.

 

I liked the scene where John T gives him his old guns and clothes back.

 

I do, as well. That was a very touching moment. John T. cared enough about Dude to

buy his guns back for him and to hold them for him, hoping he would come back

"home." This is the act of a "father" looking out for his wayward "son." Keep those

"guns and clothes," Quiet Gal. Keep the faith.

 

 

 

It was an uphill fight... especially everytime he has a set back.. but I liked that he

keeps on fighting... even when he REALLY DOES seem to want to give up.

 

Dean Martin does a wonderful job of conveying self-doubt and internal pain. You always

get the sense he could lose it at any moment.

 

Oh PLEASE!!!! Anyone knows that you will ONLY turn into the "town drunk" if

you have that weakness in you to begin with... we are ALL responsible for our

OWN behavior... NO MATTER how many weasly ways we try to blame it on

someone else.

 

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? Give me that bottle!

 

I love Ward Bond... but I have to say... that if this movie has a character that to

me needed more credibility.. it was his. He starts out really strong... coming in to

town... but then when he gets all "stupid" in the saloon... it just did not seem to

"fly" for me.

 

I was more stunned -- RIO SPOILER -- that he bit the dust so very early on. I was

disappointed. Bond is a very comfortable performer with me. I thought Miss G's

defense of her Wardy to be very good, too. He wasn't a lawman, but that doesn't

mean he wasn't a good man. And even good men can be "dumb." Often times,

it's unknowingly.

 

Ha. Is THAT why you are always "lurking" around in the back shadows?????

 

You have me confused with Doniphon! By the way, was that Doniphon in the rafters?

 

 

I agree the two characters have their differences too... and also... I think you are

right about John T except maybe I think he more HOPES for Dude rather than

completely trusting him... he's willing to give him the benefit of the doubt... but

still... he doesn't quite restore his FULL trust in him until he proves himself a little

at a time.

 

I agree with that. However, John knows how good Dude is. He has seen it for

himself. Geoff has only heard good things about McPherson. This makes

McPherson similar to Colorado.

 

 

I really like what you say here... and it is VERY true. REAL redemption comes

from REAL repentance... and you can fool some of the people SOME of the

time... but in the end... no matter how hard you try... if you continue on in the

same bad and destructive behavior over and over... the only one you've really

fooled is yourself. Sad but true.

 

The act of deceiving and harming others, time and time again, is very sad. I'm someone

who cares about humanity, so it is always very tough for me to understand those who

are constantly looking to harm humanity.

 

WHAT.... no HONDO?? No "Guns" Donovan????? What about MCCLINTOCK????? Or

Rooster Cogburn?????? ha.

 

Nope! I haven't seen any of those films in their entirety. I've seen snippets of

Donovan's Reef and McLintock!.

 

Actually you have a pretty good list going on... so far!! In fact... you have at least 3 that

I know for SURE I've never seen... (the last 3) and also #9 that I don't think I've

seen... but I MAY have... (it's on my list for the library.) I haven't been able to get

#10 or 11 yet.. and I have only heard of #12 maybe on other time... so I think I have

a ways to go mysefl... ha.

 

I really like Baby Face and Red River, I believe The Wings of Eagles is

very underrated, and I think The Horse Soldiers is okay. Baby Face is NOT a

Wayne film. He just plays a young sap in the film whose screentime is negative two

minutes. Still, it's quite interesting to see such a young Wayne in such an unfamiliar

world for him.

 

Red River is worth seeking out. More Hawks! Although, I don't think you'd like

it all that much since it's mostly a "father-son" story. Wayne is mostly unlikeable. But

you will love Walter Brennan.

 

The Wings of Eagles is the most fascinating of Wayne's performances that I

have seen. In fact, it may be his best performance. It's a rather sad story. It's damn

good.

 

Of the four you mentioned, I think you'd like The Horse Soldiers the most. The

battle of the sexes are in play in this one. It's not that bad of a film, it just takes

some odd turns. I really like the ending.

 

I think you are right... and they ARE different (motivationally) but they do have a lot in

common as well.

 

This is true. Geoff is a high-strung barker; it's his way or the highway. John is in

charge, but he listens to those he trusts. I found this to be so damn

appealing. I was not expecting this at all. John T. Chance is my kind of guy. He's

smart but he's not too smart, if you know what I mean.

 

Make me a list of some more of your faves for him... I like him in almost

ANYTHING... but he has some really stand out moments in a lot of films... my

ABSOLUTE fave for him is Pastor Pyle (in Sgt York) ... but I think Stumpy runs a

VERY close second... and I am really getting close to making some adjustments

for the rest of my list because of two recent films I have watched (To Have and Have Not

AND My Darling Clementine... though.. in MDC he plays one MEAN monster to be

sure.) But I have SO many other films I like him in.. it is really hard to choose favorites.

 

Walter Brennan is my favorite character actor. Like you, I like him in anything. He's

another comforting performer with me.

 

1. Stumpy (Rio Bravo)

2. Ben Tatum (The Far Country)

3. Groot Nadine (Red River)

4. The Colonel (Meet John Doe)

5. Old Man Clanton (My Darling Clementine)

6. Eddie (To Have and Have Not)

7. Doc T.R. Velie Jr. (Bad Day at Black Rock)

8. Prof. Stephen Novotny (Hangmen Also Die!)

9. Bugs Meyers (Fury)

10. Jake (The Proud Ones)

 

And, I must confess, I really didn't know who Walter Brennan was when I first started

watching classic film. I watched the four films at the bottom of my list before I knew of

Brennan. I need to revisit them all.

 

I think you've got it pegged... John T was basing most of his opinions on what

he had read in the handbill... but once he had a chance to see for himself the way

things really were... he wasn't too stubborn to give her the chance she

deserved... And by doing THAT... it made HIM the "Chance" she deserved as well.

 

Definitely. And it wasn't just the handbill, it was also that she was gambling. Remember,

John T. accused Feathers of being the cheat at the table. When her innocence was proven,

this was step one of earning his trust. Then she stood up to him. Finally, in a very

relaxing moment for both, she told him her story. John T. then felt she wasn't the bad girl

he was making her out to be, like many of the other "stage" girls, like the one Dude

fell for and Fordy Guns ( ). Once John T. tore up Feathers' "past," she felt forgiven

and accepted, and this freed her. There was no way she was going to let this kind of

guy go. She was ready to protect and serve HIM.

 

 

 

 

I really liked that Feathers came right out and admitted she was indeed the girl

on the handbill. Now that's talkin' straight. What would John T. have thought of her

if she lied to him about that and then he found out the truth? But she didn't lie.

 

 

I loved this exchange between John T. and Feathers:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feathers didn't want John T. to define her. She wasn't the woman he was picturing

in his mind and she let him know about it. Now what would we think of Feathers if

she DID cheat at cards and she DID lie about being on the handbill? What if she

kept lying at every turn, saying she wasn't what she was? What happens when the

truth comes out and lies are exposed? Can anyone ever trust a person who is lying

and deceiving others and constantly looking to do it? What good is their word if they

are purposely looking to deceive you and others at every single turn? What good are

they? For their sake, they better hope they are never found out to be lying about

their identity. Because once that happens, they are through.

[lzcutter]

What Frankie, no Captain Nathan Brittles on that list?

 

I'm guessing you've missed *Yellow Ribbon* all the previous times it's been on TCM.

 

Guess you'll be watching it that evening of April 15th.

[moviefan1951]

It's probably a safe bet that not only he, but most TCM viewers, will be glued to the screen that evening.

[FrankGrimes]

What Frankie, no Captain Nathan Brittles on that list?

 

Who?

 

I'm guessing you've missed Yellow Ribbon all the previous times it's been on TCM.

Guess you'll be watching it that evening of April 15th.

 

It's playing on the 15th? I didn't know this. But I'll be watching the NHL playoffs.

Can't wait!

[lzcutter]

*You make it sound mysterious and nomadic...like wandering knights of old. No*

*wonder filmakers and other artists grew fascinated with the old west.*

 

MissG,

 

You can probably draw a line from the dime novelists and writers like Ned Buntline through to authors like James Warner Bellah and Frank Nugent and screenplay writers of classic film to the likes of Sam Peckinpah and Richard Matheson writing for TV westerns and see how the idea of not only the cowboy evolved but the law man as well.

 

We Americans are a strange breed. We like our history romanticized instead of truthful. Perhaps it makes us feel better about ourselves as we imagine the ways we would have acted in the face of racism or fear or poverty. We all like to think we would be Atticus Finch or Tom Joad or even John T. Chance or Will Kane when in reality, the reason we like those characters so much is not because they are us but because we understand on some basic level (no matter how much we like to dream we would do just as they do) that we aren't them.

 

If we all would have been like Atticus Finch, Jim Crowe laws would not have been on the books in Northern and Southern states until the 1960s and the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would not have been necessary.

 

But, alas, we are merely human. But movie heroes allow us to believe for those two hours (or so) that we could be better than we often truly are.

 

But, lest I get lectured for being off-topic, Howard Hawks was not exactly a romantic fellow in real life.

 

I believe it was his buddy, John Ford, who called him the Grey Fox for all the womanizing he did both while married and single.

 

It's one of the things that marvels me about the *Men Who Made the Movies* series. Howard Hawks and King Vidor were two of the biggest ladies men in Hollywood in their day. And now I watch them in that series and go, "Huh?".

 

How times have changed. Oh wait, I probably went off topic again. Sorry.

 

Message was edited by: lzcutter for grammar and Kool-Aid.

[moviefan1951]

An interesting analysis regarding our feelings about American history.

 

I'd take that a step further and add that, perhaps, while movies in general allow us to imagine ourselves in the shoes of the movie heroes and heroines, Westerns in particular afford us a more specific kind of dream: to imagine ourselves in the place of our ancestors, of the settlers from an earlier time who bravely left the comfort of the East for the wild, dangerous and unpredictable West, knowing all of the risks involved.

 

The settling of the West is a uniquely American experience, that probably cannot be compared with any other geographic expansion in recorded history.

 

It is quite a contrast with the world we are used to living in, a world where there are no new frontiers, no new territory waiting to be explored, settled, domesticated, tamed, and incorporated into what we consider "civilization".

[lzcutter]

*It is quite a contrast with the world we are used to living in, a world where there are no new frontiers, no new territory waiting to be explored, settled, domesticated, tamed, and incorporated into what we consider "civilization".*

 

I could contrast it quite nicely with our quest into space and our dream of landing a man on the moon. Having lived through that era perhaps brings a different perspective.

 

But that will have to wait for another time and place as it doesn't fit the talk of *Rio Bravo*.

 

But come July when TCM honors the 40th anniversary of Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, then we might discuss it.

[moviefan1951]

It could make for a nice contrast, definitely, as long as we keep in mind that space exploration really only allowed a handful of individuals (mostly U.S. and Soviet citizens) to actually go out there and explore.

 

The Old West was there for just about anyone who wanted to set forth and explore. All you really needed was a horse (or a wagon if the whole family was going).

 

Now, in a totally off-topic public service announcement - FOLKS please protect yourselves against the Conficker virus! Here is how to:

 

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/132464

[lzcutter]

*The Old West was there for just about anyone who wanted to set forth and explore. All you really needed was a horse (or a wagon if the whole family was going).*

 

And the will to survive backbreaking work, bone crunching journeys across the country by wagon that took five months or more, often starvation and barely getting by.

 

The actual western expansion was a terrifying journey that we too often overlook while focusing on the thrill of adventure.

[FrankGrimes]

Hey, Cowboy Chris -- I think it was you who said Hawks wanted to get things off

to a big start and used that angle of the camera looking up at Duke. The whole scene

was also done with no dialogue. Now, it is only 2 or 3 minutes but everyone motions

their way through it. Whether that was for impact or just effect I'm not sure but for the

type of scene that was a while with no dialogue.

 

I'm glad you have brought this up. I absolutely loved the "silent" opening to

Rio Bravo. Scenes without dialogue tend to draw me in more. My attention

is heightened. The opening to Rio Bravo reminded me of the opening to

Once Upon a Time in the West. Actually, I think Sergio Leone also mixed

it with High Noon spin, since the bad guys are awaiting the train arrival of

the good guy.

 

One thing that did bother me about Dude and Chance when they go back into the

saloon later to find the guy with the muddy boots was were they really going to leave

without checking anywhere else in he building? What guy would run into a bar after

having done what he did and not consider hiding somewhere after he had been

shot? Dude and Chance don't know it but the killer certainly does. I know that

takes away from the effect of the scene but they were ready to leave when he

wasn't in the main room. But that is my problem in applying my logic to someone

else's logic.

 

I believe the reason for this has to do with self-doubt and trust. I think Dude was so

very certain that Pat's Killer had ducked into this bar and was one of the men standing

in front of him. When he was shown to be wrong, he became flustered and a great

sense of self-doubt crept into his head. John T. didn't know what to believe. I think

his trust in Dude was a little bit shaken. But not much time elapses between Dude's

self-doubt and John T's loss of trust before the ultimate clue shows up. The confidence

level of Dude and in Dude (from John T's point of view) rises thanks to this scene.

[moviefan1951]

> And the will to survive backbreaking work, bone crunching journeys across the country by wagon that took five months or more, often starvation and barely getting by.

>

> The actual western expansion was a terrifying journey that we too often overlook while focusing on the thrill of adventure.

 

Of course, there was that, too. And not just backbreaking work, and the danger of starvation, but also the very real chance one would meet a quick death due to rattlesnakes or other wild creatures, in river crossings, or in random encounters with Native Americans (who rightly or wrongly were trying to protect their ways of life).

 

It is precisely all of that which would, in its own way, have made it "exciting", because you'd wake up every morning more aware than ever that that day could be your last, that you could run into all kinds of wild and unexpected dangers... modern life is usually all too predictable, save for the small chance of some unexpected medical condition, or becoming the victim of random criminal acts.

[MissGoddess]

Hi Kool Aid Kid!

 

MissG,

 

You can probably draw a line from the dime novelists and writers like Ned Buntline through to authors like James Warner Bellah and Frank Nugent and screenplay writers of classic film to the likes of Sam Peckinpah and Richard Matheson writing for TV westerns and see how the idea of not only the cowboy evolved but the law man as well.

 

 

Don't forget Zane Grey. I mention him because I read his novels as a kid (my

Mother loved him, had that complete set of hardcovers of all his stories and I read every one,

some several times) and because so many of his stories were staples of B-movie westerns.

 

 

We Americans are a strange breed.

 

Some of us are stranger than others.

 

We like our history romanticized instead of truthful.

 

 

I think this is universal, not just an "American" thing. Think about the Knights of the

Round Table. All those marvelous tales chivalry grew out of the reality of the Crusades,

which were often motivated by greed and responsible for awful cruelties by all involved.

 

As Orson Welles so wittily put it, "History can't possibly be true!"

 

Perhaps it makes us feel better about ourselves as we imagine the ways we would have acted in the face of racism or fear or poverty. We all like to think we would be Atticus Finch or Tom Joad or even John T. Chance or Will Kane when in reality, the reason we like those characters so much is not because they are us but because we understand on some basic level (no matter how much we like to dream we would do just as they do) that we aren't them.

 

Yes, we'd many of us love to just keep "printing the legend". I prefer the truth

be told but I love to entertain myself with the legends.

 

 

But, lest I get lectured for being off-topic, Howard Hawks was not exactly a romantic fellow in real life.

I believe it was his buddy, John Ford, who called him the Grey Fox for all the womanizing he did both while married and single.

 

To play the "devil's advocate", many consider "womanizers" the most romantic

figures of all (Casanova, Don Juan...) But, no, I don't put "the Fox" in that league, ha!

 

It's one of the things that marvels me about the Men Who Made the Movies series. Howard Hawks and King Vidor were two of the biggest ladies men in Hollywood in their day. And now I watch them in that series and go, "Huh?".

 

OK, here we differ. I see those guys, especially Walsh, and I say WOW, where can

I find these guys? I can't. They and their time are gone with the wind. (I don't mean

old men with eye patches, ha!) I love their outspokenness, their individuality, their boyish

competitiveness, their zest for adventure and independence. It draws me in every time,

just like "Feathers".

 

How times have changed.

 

Yes, they have.

[moviefan1951]

> As Orson Welles so wittily put it, "History can't possibly be true!"

 

Or even better, as Mark Twain put it, "History doesn't repeat itself - but it sure rhymes!"

[movieman1957]

Wait until you see Duke play the ultimate tough guy - Genghis Kahn. Who knew Mongols had a drawl.

[moviefan1951]

> Wait until you see Duke play the ultimate tough guy - Genghis Kahn. Who knew Mongols had a drawl.

 

Well, I guess those Mongols sure got around. That might explain the drawl.

[JackFavell]

I'm with you, Izcutter.... I cannot see what the big deal is with Hawks or Vidor. They don't do a thing for me.

 

Now, Walsh......... I LOVE him. Very dashing. And he's funny.

[coopsgirl]

*The actual western expansion was a terrifying journey that we too often overlook while focusing on the thrill of adventure.*

 

If you haven?t seen *The Real West* you might enjoy it. It was part of a TV series called Project Twenty from 1961 and that particular episode was about the old West days and Gary Cooper did the narration. He was very sick with cancer then and would pass away just three months after completing it but it was very dear to his heart as he wanted people to know the real story and not just the over romanticized view of that time that many people had. They used lots of old photographs to tell the story as well as some bits of Gary on camera on old West type set. It was pretty interesting and from the pics you can see how hard that life was as the men and women don?t look much like the people in the Western movies ? ha!

 

It was scary but also exciting like MM1951 said. It was a lot of hard work but I can imagine the people (at least the ones who lived to tell the tale) got a great sense of satisfaction out of making something where once there was nothing. My ancestors moved from the Midwest into Texas in the 1820s when it was still wild and quite barren and they established several settlements in the northern parts of the state. Some of the things my great,great?grandfather, his brother and nephew did would fit right along with a lot of Westerns. It?s like I?ve got a bunch of Gary?s in my family except they did in real life the things he only did in the movies .

 

Just for kicks here's a pic of Wiliam, my direct descendant, who fought at the battle of San Jacinto where Texas won her independence from Mexico in April 1836. The family resemblance is striking and a little spooky after so many generations have passed .

 

[lzcutter]

*OK, here we differ. I see those guys, especially Walsh, and I say WOW, where can I find these guys? I can't.*

 

MissG,

 

I agree with you about Walsh (and especially Wild Bill Wellman) but for the live of me I can't imagine King Vidor or Howard Hawks in their prime being these two great lotharios that they are said to have been. I can see it more in Hawks in the Schickel interviews when he's wearing the cowboy hat but at his estate in Palm Springs, I just go huh? and looking at Vidor, I never get the connection.

 

Vidor must have been very cerebral or maybe had a wicked sense of humor. He did end out his days with Colleen Moore after all.

[JackFavell]

That's so fantastic, Coopsgirl, that you have real life Garys in your past! Thanks for posting that portrait. What a ruggedly handsome fellow, with his devilish eyebrow raised.....

[coopsgirl]

I think it?s part of the feisty attitude that runs on my dad?s side of the family. We?re like rattlesnakes; leave us alone and we?ll leave you alone, but if you rile us ? look out!! Of course, this is a trait most Texans have and my family has been here a long time .

[MissGoddess]

Howdy Lynn!

 

Hawksie seems a little too "chilly" to be attractive to me but he was OK looking

in his prime, tall and lean and men who fly airplanes have something dashing about them.

Now King Vidor isn't my type at all, so I agree with you there. Too "bookish", I've never been

attracted to that. But Victor Fleming is by far the most attractive of all the directors I've

seen or read about. Whew!

 

Angie! I LOVE that photo of your ancestor! :x How exciting! I wish I knew even the

first thing about my family's background but that may never be.