Western Movie Rambles

[redriver]

"I'm afraid he can't hear you...Captain."

[rohanaka]

Hey... RedRiver.... I watched YOUR movie the other night...(ha)

 

I had the library order in a copy of Red River for me because I could not recall the last time I had seen it... And after watching it the other night... I think that is because I DON'T think I ever HAD seen it all the way through before.

 

I have to say.... there were some VERY strong performances in this one. It was a BIG change for the standard "Duke" role and I liked getting to see him play a "less" than good guy for a change. I also liked Montgomery Clift... and when have I EVER not been glad to see Walter Brennan in ANYTHING!!! ha.

 

And of course... the film was VERY artfully filmed and directed. I found a lot of interesting characters and peronalities in this film as well...

 

But... I can't put this one up as high on the list of my Fave Dukes as I would like... because...

 

Well.... I just had too many "issues" with the story. SO much of it just didn't ring true (especially the ending) But.... still a good film all in all. .

[redriver]

I agree 100%. I like the movie for its strengths, and overlook the weaknesses. Your critique is an excellent one.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=redriver wrote:}{quote}

> I agree 100%. I like the movie for its strengths, and overlook the weaknesses. Your critique is an excellent one.

 

Overall, I think the strengths are far greater than the weaknesses; it might have been even more effective with a slightly shorter running time. But the photography, score, performances, etc. are all first-rate, I think.

[Bronxgirl48]

I like the "edgy" quality that introspective Monty Clift brings to RED RIVER.

 

Message was edited by: Bronxgirl48

[rohanaka]

Hello Ms. B... I thought he did a REALLY good job with the "EDGY" as you say. I have only seen him in a few other films... but I thought this one is one of his better performances.

 

PS... RedRiver... glad to hear we are not on "opposite" sides of.... "the River' on this one!! :-)

[Bronxgirl48]

Hey, ro -- Monty is one of my favorite actors. Haven't seen RED RIVER in a while, and I'm in the mood to right now as a matter of fact. I like the psychological complexity of Tom and Matt's relationship, and the general "adultness" of Hawk's approach to the story.

[movieman1957]

Hi Kathy:

 

Glad you finally got to see "Red River." The ending is just a little to quick or neat but overall I think it is a grand film. I think Wayne's performance is just behind "The Searchers" and and an interesting contrast to the other 1949 western "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon." Brennan is terrific as always. The odd relationship between Clift and Ireland makes for interesting viewing but I'm not sure it really resolves itself. Another strong performance from Joanne Dru and altogether you have a winner.

 

Are your reservations because Wayne is mostly so nasty. He's all business isn't he?

[rohanaka]

Hiya friend Chris....

 

Are your reservations because Wayne is mostly so nasty. He's all business isn't he?

 

No actually that part did not bug me as much as I thought. (ha) I have seen him get a little on the ugly side of life before in some of his other roles... so I can handle that aspect. Mostly I just kept thinking... this story is GOING to get better and THEN there will be a point to all the killing and such.... Because it was more the believability behind the "motivation" of some of the characters I struggled with from time to time... specifically Dunson, but even Matt from time to time. (I wasn't sure HOW I felt about him for a while... because I saw the potential for him to be a HOTHEAD show off.... and I was surprised when he ended up to be nothing like that at all.... but actually he ended up being more like the DUKE.... than the DUKE... ha)

 

The only one I DID have a clear fix on ... (well TWO) actually were Brennan's character and the Indian (who owned half interest in his teeth) ha.

 

And I STILL haven't quite worked out what I think about "Cherry" and a few of the other men... were they good/ bad/ grey?????? ha. I just can't quite figure all the way.

 

(PS.... don't tell the Grey guy... .there is a LOT of GREY in this movie...ha.)

 

And w/ Dunson..... I just did not think that after all that driving ambition to get the herd to market and to make his ranch so strong again that he would have gotten so "kookoo" over Matt wanting to head a different direction... especially when there seemed to be pretty good evidence (particularly the guy who came riding in half dead) that it WAS possible they could go to Kansas instead and come out better off. He just totally lost all reason at that point.

 

(Mini spoiler alert)

And then when he DOES finally catch up to him at the railroad tracks.... and sees that he'd been wrong all along... That doesn't even seem to phase him... he just wants to kill poor Matt. (who he SHOULD have known well enough by now.... since he half RAISED him... that he would be able to figure out that he had NOT really "stolen" what had been intended for him to have someday anyway.) Dunson was just MAD (and I don't mean "crazy" at this point).... and I never really thought his character was the sort to let his temper "rule' him like that. He made "quick" decisions a lot of the time (especially early on over the property he'd settled on, etc) but he wasn't acting out of anger. So for him to go all "I'm gonna kill you" .... well to me.... it was a bit TOO over the top for me to believe.

 

And I agree w/ you about Dru's performance... she was terrific. (Oh my golly... when she got hit w/ that arrow I about jumped out of my chair)...ha. But honestly.. I thought the whole "woman" angle was not really done as well as it could have been (and don't hit me... but I half thought maybe it wasn't needed at all... BOTH women for that matter) At least w/ Dru's character, it did not need to "continue on" the way that it did w/ her and the Duke having that ONE (baby) conversation etc, etc And then with her going w/him... blah blah.... I just did not need THAT part of the story to keep going on and on. (Ok... I'm probably in the minority on that... don't everyone hit me all at once...ha.)

 

(More SPOILING!!!)

And you are right about the end.... it was WAY too quick.. especailly considering how LONG and GRUELING the rest of the story was. And with the way she "jumped in at the end" and made them turn all "buddy buddy" again.... just seconds after CHERRY was just gunned down in the street. And I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T have been "gunned down" by the way (because HE was aiming to kiil too) but the whole ending was just WAY too lighthearted for such a violent and "bleak" film.... especially with the shoot out and fist fight only moments before.

 

Ok.... it is STARTING to sound like I didn't LIKE this movie... and that's not true, because I DID... I think I was just more disappointed than I thought I would be by some of the plot elements.... because if it weren't for THOSE issues... Then for me... this WOULD have been a great movie.

 

I think the Duke DOES do a stand out job as Dunson (but I don't know if I would put this role up as high as you did w/ The Searchers) and again... I think this is as fine a job from Clift as I've ever seen (though admittedly I don't have a LOT of experience w/ his films)

 

And it was wonderfully filmed... (I think my absolute favorite scene was when they were just about to head out for the first leg of their journey and you get to see ALL these guys give their "cowboy yell".. I liked how they each got a close up and you get to hear their own "personal" call....

 

And it is a much more "psychological" drama than the average western would be... so much mention is made of Dunson's state of mind and how he's sort of "lost it," etc. But even before that.... I thought the music just before they leave was appropriately "eerie" in a way... as if already warning you that things were going to be a bit "nutso" eventually. .And the use of the fog later on when the men are getting a bit jumpy already...that added a nice layer to the whole thing too.

 

Overall.... an enjoyable film.... I think I was just expecting something a little different from the plot... so I can't put it way up on the top of my list..... but it IS on my list.... ha. :-)

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[JackFavell]

I have yet to see the end of Red River, because I turn my head and it's over.... I must have seen it three times and missed the ending every time. Next time, I am recording just to make sure.

 

I think Duke is great in this one, too. I can totally see your reservations, Ro, but I think acting-wise he pulls of the "I'm gonna kill you, Matt" thing really well, in spite of the script deficiencies that don't really explain it. I too would have liked a little background on why he goes off to such an extent.

 

I don't even remember Joanna Dru in this one. However I went back to watch Wagon Master last night.... and she was sooo good! Right now, "Miss Denver" may be my favorite female character of all time. I adore her in it and the movie is a rollicking good time from start to finish. This is one Fordie that captured my heart right from the start.... and it has Ben.

[movieman1957]

Ladies:

 

I think part of why Dunson gets mad is not only has Matt taken his cattle but Matt is going to finish the job they started out to do even if they are going ot do it differently. In some way Dunson can't stand the idea of being "shown up." He might be a little embarassed by the fact someone else can do what he thought only he could. His anger against Matt may be more about showing he is still a tough guy.

 

Dru's role is important in that she is the cause/reason for Matt and Dunson reconciling. If there was another way I agree that her role isn't needed or at least could be more in passing.

 

I haven't seen it since last year but that is as well as I recall.

[JackFavell]

I think you are right about Dunson being mad that Matt might actually have found a better way to lead the group...

 

He still thinks of Matt as a little kid, also I doubt anyone else has ever seriously challenged Dunson before. Again, just as in SWAYR, it is about age and still being seen as "in command". If he is not in command, right or wrong, what is he?

[rohanaka]

Hello there, Jackie!!

 

I liked your comment about turning your head and missing the end of the movie...ha. It really IS almost that quick of an ending...ha.

 

And Chris... you are right about Dru's character being needed to bring the two men back together at the end (especially since she left the wagon train and tagged along with him to get there) BUT if they HAD left her whole story out altogether (or at least REDUCED it) .... they could have just used the cows (ha) as in.... "Hey look at all the cattle and the RAILROAD here together in the same place... gee.... you were RIGHT after all Matt" And at least for me... that would have worked just as well. And then Walter Brennan could have given the whole... "you two love each other too much to want to kill each other" sort of speech... HA! :-) (I don't know.... I am sure there is a reason I don't get paid to write movies.... ha. I just think however they ended this movie...they could have done it BETTER than it was.)

 

And Jackie and Chris... you are both right about Dunson being angry. I am sure Matt taking charge had a lot to do with it... but I think he was a bit "over the top" with it all... And I also think the whole "hang the deserters" part (that led up to the whole incident where Matt steps in) was a bit far fetched. But I am starting to sound like a whiner...ha. I am beginning to think this may be one where you just have to take this story for how it was presented if you want to really enjoy it.

 

PS.. Jackie... glad you go to see Wagon Master.... I watched that this past winter... it's really a fun film... almost a musical. And YES.... there's BEN!!! (and sweet little Harry about as cute as I've ever seen him, too!)

[redriver]

***SPOILER***

 

The final scene is the big flaw in this otherwise magnificent drama. Half the movie is about the brewing showdown. Then they kiss and make up? Almost certainly the work of studio executives.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=redriver wrote:}{quote}

>

> The final scene is the big flaw in this otherwise magnificent drama. {....} Almost certainly the work of studio executives.

 

You have a point. But shouldn't Hawks have had enough clout by that point in his career to avoid too much interference from the suits?

 

I'm not saying a bigger confrontation wouldn't have been more in keeping with what came before. But, at the same time, I wonder: would it have been more conventional storytelling?

[JackFavell]

>PS.. Jackie... glad you got to see Wagon Master.... I watched that this past winter... it's really a fun film... almost a musical. And YES.... there's BEN!!! (and sweet little Harry about as cute as I've ever seen him, too!)

 

I don't want to digress too much here, but....you took the words right out of my mouth - it IS almost a musical... and it's a perfect one. But you know how much I like the Sons of the Pioneers.

 

Harry's adorable in this one. He has grown on me a lot in the last 3 movies of his I watched, but this one is my fave of his, he's just so dern cute! When he is bumping behinds with the irritable young mormon, I just had to laugh! Ward Bond gets a lot to do here and it's wonderful to watch him go to it with gusto. My favorite is the scene in which he talks about what a fine figure of a woman Miss Fyfe is, he's ACTUALLY licking his lips, he reminds me of the wolf in the cartoon Red Hot Riding Hood!

[rohanaka]

I don't want to digress too much here, but....you took the words right out of my mouth - it IS almost a musical... and it's a perfect one. But you know how much I like the Sons of the Pioneers.

 

Heya young'un... As I recall I took the words out of my OWN mouth all over again... because I remembered that Miss G started a thread way back at the first of the year....and I think I said that same thing back then too... ha. And NOT that we couldn't go ahead and talk about BOTH movies here as well because THAT would be totally OK.... but I just thought I needed to go back and look up some of what was written there before since I could not remember some of the "finer" points... and I wanted to)

 

When I looked it up, I saw that YOU had posted some really nice screen caps in there.... and Miss G's opening post in this thread is TERRIFIC and VERY well worth bringing up again....

 

So hop in there.... or keep hopping here.... and we can chat about Ben and Harry along w/ Dunson and Matt in one place or another!! :-)

 

Now I need to go find my Wagon Master tape that I made and watch this one again!!! (so many movies... so little time) Ha!!!!

 

http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=139084&start=30&tstart=0

[OllieTSB]

Here's another one - WAGONMASTER. Available in Europe, not in the US. I guess this is because it has so much European flair and all those scenic vistas as the wagon train heads down the Seine. Or is it the Danube? I can't remember... darned memory... Was there a shoot-out at the Moulin Rouge? Did they burn the wagons at Versailles? Boy - I just don't remember ANY of those scenes!

[JackFavell]

Ollie, you're a scream!

 

Remember the hoedown where they played La Marseillaise while running the wagons down the Champs Elysees?

[redriver]

Let's move 'em to The Red Riviera!

[HollywoodGolightly]

I seem to vaguely remember when they set up a camp for the night, over by the Eiffel Tower. Or was it the Leaning Tower of Pisa?

[rohanaka]

Was there a shoot-out at the Moulin Rouge?

 

STOP STOP!!! I can-can hardly take anymore...ha. (you guys are too funny...)

 

Available in Europe, not in the US

 

Well now, that just doesn't make good horse sense. :-)

[JackFavell]

It seems ridiculous that after the incredible popularity of the Ford at Fox set, that they could get this one on dvd.....

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Cowboy Chris -- I'm hoping to jump in the Red River later tonight , but I just

wanted to give you a quick pat on the back for your words about the film. I most certainly

agree with your take. You sure do know your westerns, my friend.

[movieman1957]

Thank you Sir Francis. I anxiously await your thoughts on the film.