Western Movie Rambles

[rohanaka]

I'm hoping to jump in the Red River later tonight

 

It's about time you showed up here, Grey Dude!! I was afraid I was going to have to go get my rope... and then before it was all over... we'd all be singing a chorus of "Shall We Gather at the River"

[FrankGrimes]

BEWARE: RED RIVER SPILLING OVER

 

Howdy, Quiet Gal -- Mostly I just kept thinking... this story is GOING to get

better and THEN there will be a point to all the killing and such.... Because it was

more the believability behind the "motivation" of some of the characters I struggled

with from time to time... specifically Dunson,

 

I do agree with you, Dunson (John Wayne) seems to flip switches rather too easily. He

loses it easily and then he finds it easily.

 

but even Matt from time to time. (I wasn't sure HOW I felt about him for a while... because

I saw the potential for him to be a HOTHEAD show off.... and I was surprised when he

ended up to be nothing like that at all.... but actually he ended up being more like the

DUKE.... than the DUKE... ha)

 

Matt (Montgomery Clift) was a very cool customer, but I liked how he admitted his being

scared to Tess (Joanne Dru). He's very forthcoming.

 

The only one I DID have a clear fix on ... (well TWO) actually were Brennan's character

and the Indian (who owned half interest in his teeth) ha.

 

Brennan is terrific, as always.

 

And I STILL haven't quite worked out what I think about "Cherry" and a few of the other

men... were they good/ bad/ grey?????? ha. I just can't quite figure all the way.

 

I thought Cherry VALANCE (John Ireland) would turn on Matt, but he never did. He ended

up being good... and the hothead in the film.

 

(PS.... don't tell the Grey guy... .there is a LOT of GREY in this movie...ha.)

 

Really? I didn't see it as being all that grey of a film.

 

And w/ Dunson..... I just did not think that after all that driving ambition to get the

herd to market and to make his ranch so strong again that he would have gotten

so "kookoo" over Matt wanting to head a different direction... especially when there

seemed to be pretty good evidence (particularly the guy who came riding in half dead)

that it WAS possible they could go to Kansas instead and come out better off. He just

totally lost all reason at that point.

 

I think Dunson was at his end because he felt his "salvation" was unraveling all around

him. He felt all the men were going to turn on him and this caused his paranoia to reach

dangerous levels. What really stung Dunson was that he never expected his "son" to be

the one who "deserted" him. He felt betrayed. When a "son" betrays his "father," it's a

crushing blow.

 

(Mini spoiler alert)

 

And then when he DOES finally catch up to him at the railroad tracks.... and sees that

he'd been wrong all along... That doesn't even seem to phase him... he just wants to

kill poor Matt. (who he SHOULD have known well enough by now.... since he

half RAISED him... that he would be able to figure out that he had NOT really

"stolen" what had been intended for him to have someday anyway.) Dunson was just

MAD (and I don't mean "crazy" at this point).... and I never really thought his character

was the sort to let his temper "rule' him like that. He made "quick" decisions a lot of the

time (especially early on over the property he'd settled on, etc) but he wasn't acting out

of anger. So for him to go all "I'm gonna kill you" .... well to me.... it was a bit TOO over

the top for me to believe.

 

You never want to embarrass a man in front of other men, especially HIS men. Would a

"father" want to kill his own "son" over such a thing? That's where it does become more of

a stretch. But pride can be a dangerous motivator. Some will stop at nothing to

be right, particularly men. Admitting one is wrong is a sign of weakness to some guys.

 

And I agree w/ you about Dru's performance... she was terrific. (Oh my golly... when

she got hit w/ that arrow I about jumped out of my chair)...ha.

 

Why do I hear Miss G right about now? It must be my imagination.

 

But honestly.. I thought the whole "woman" angle was not really done as well as it

could have been

 

I agree with you. Ahhhh, Hawks.

 

(and don't hit me... but I half thought maybe it wasn't needed at all... BOTH women

for that matter) At least w/ Dru's character, it did not need to "continue on" the way that

it did w/ her and the Duke having that ONE (baby) conversation etc, etc And then with

her going w/him... blah blah.... I just did not need THAT part of the story to keep going

on and on. (Ok... I'm probably in the minority on that... don't everyone hit me all at

once...ha.)

 

You are right, the film didn't really need the female aspect, and it would have helped

the ending if it wasn't in it. However, I do like the female angle of the film. I'm one who

does believe a woman can make a man listen, even the toughest of men.

 

(More SPOILING!!!)

 

And you are right about the end.... it was WAY too quick.. especailly considering how

LONG and GRUELING the rest of the story was. And with the way she "jumped in at

the end" and made them turn all "buddy buddy" again.... just seconds after CHERRY

was just gunned down in the street. And I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T have been

"gunned down" by the way (because HE was aiming to kiil too) but the whole ending

was just WAY too lighthearted for such a violent and "bleak" film.... especially with

the shoot out and fist fight only moments before.

 

I completely agree with you. The ending is one of the weakest you will find in westerns.

It's amazing how many of us guys actually like Red River despite the ultra-soft

ending.

 

Ok.... it is STARTING to sound like I didn't LIKE this movie... and that's not true,

because I DID... I think I was just more disappointed than I thought I would be by

some of the plot elements.... because if it weren't for THOSE issues... Then for

me... this WOULD have been a great movie.

 

Red River was one of the first westerns I watched when I got into westerns. In fact, it

was my first Wayne film. I really liked it after my first viewing. I think the biggest reason

why was because Wayne played a character I never expected to see from him. It made me

look at Wayne in a very good way.

 

However, in subsequent viewings, my initial feelings for the film have started to lessen.

Red River used to be in my top ten for westerns, now it's outside my top twenty. Like

you, I still like the film, but I like other westerns more.

 

I think the Duke DOES do a stand out job as Dunson (but I don't know if I would put

this role up as high as you did w/ The Searchers)

 

I like Wayne in the film, but once he's left behind, he disappears into the background. We

never see how he is away from the wagon train except with Tess. We don't see him

rounding up his posse or how he is with that posse. He becomes the awaited villain.

 

I think this is as fine a job from Clift as I've ever seen (though admittedly I don't have

a LOT of experience w/ his films)

 

I like Clift and I thought he was very good in this film. I prefer him in other films, though.

 

And it was wonderfully filmed... (I think my absolute favorite scene was when they

were just about to head out for the first leg of their journey and you get to see ALL

these guys give their "cowboy yell".. I liked how they each got a close up and you

get to hear their own "personal" call.

 

Hawks did use quite a few soundstrage close-ups in the film. My favorite scene is when

Dunson and Groot (Walter Brennan) are attacked away from the first wagon train. I love the

"flaming arrow" shot. However, I believe the film really lacks high points.

 

And it is a much more "psychological" drama than the average western would be... so

much mention is made of Dunson's state of mind and how he's sort of "lost it," etc. But

even before that.... I thought the music just before they leave was appropriately "eerie" in

a way... as if already warning you that things were going to be a bit "nutso" eventually. .And

the use of the fog later on when the men are getting a bit jumpy already...that added a

nice layer to the whole thing too.

 

That's a great point about the music, and your usage of the word "eerie" really fits. I was

really struck by the shots Hawks chose right before they headed out on the drive. It

was quite ominous. And his long pan from Matt to Dunson was stunning. We got a

great sense of just how huge and daunting this undertaking was with that one shot.

 

Overall.... an enjoyable film.... I think I was just expecting something a little different

from the plot... so I can't put it way up on the top of my list..... but it IS on my list.... ha.

 

From my experience on this board, it seems like guys tend to like Red River more

than gals. This makes sense to me since I view the film to be a "father/son" film.

 

Fathers spend so much of their time showing and telling their sons how to become

a man, just as Dunson does with Matt. Fathers want their sons to be strong and to

make decisions, to stand on their own feet. Where fathers sometimes struggle with

their grown sons is when they disagree with them. Here they teach their boy to do for

self but when their boy goes against their wishes, they sometimes feel betrayed. The

balance between pride and proud.

 

Dunson takes Matt's gun away from him in the beginning but it's Matt who takes Dunson's

"gun" away from him later. Both were right to do so. Both were life lessons.

 

[JackFavell]

Wow! Nice job, Frank.

 

I loved what you said about fathers teaching their sons to stand up for themselves, but never realizing that they might eventually have to stand up to them .....

 

We've missed your rambles here the last few weeks. Please don't tell me you are reverting to your old slacker ways....

[movieman1957]

Great job. And we didn't have to wait long for it.

 

I may not be quite in agreement on Wayne losing "it" too easily in that the whole movie he is on a short fuse. At the beginning he kills one of the men who meet him and he sends the other back with the message. He is always about how tough life is and what you have to be prepared to do. He cannot be seen as weak. And no one in authority likes having that authority questioned, never mind over thrown. Dunson will stay in charge no matter what. He can't or won't see the right or wrong of it. Even when Brennan tells him he is wrong it doesn't make him change.

 

The more he loses control the more I think he tries to keep it. It then escalates to him being by himself.

 

Though the female angle is small I can't imagine what else would have brought father and son together again. I doubt it would have been the money.

[HollywoodGolightly]

The father-son angle is very important, without a doubt, and I'm very curious as to how this might have played in the late 40's, when the baby-boomers were but small kids. The "Greatest Generation" was going to go through some of that father-son dynamic in the coming years, and I don't think this totally escaped Hawks.

 

But the movie works on other levels, too, like a sort of Western version of Mutiny on the Bounty. There is also the level of religious analogy, since according to some, the metaphoric title was deliberately chosen to evoke the Biblical exodus, another journey in which a group of Israelites leave their familiar homeland and cross the Red Sea into unknown territory. (I'm no expert on the Bible so this analogy was originally lost on me).

[JackFavell]

The "generation gap" aspect of this movie does seem really modern.....

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> The "generation gap" aspect of this movie does seem really modern.....

 

It seemed that way to me, too, but in retrospect I have to imagine it's a timeless aspect.

 

Again, coming out in 1948, I try to look at Red River through the perspective of the "Greatest Generation". They'd gone through the Great Depression and fought WW2. But one of their greatest challenges still lay ahead: how they would raise the next generation, hopefully to make it possible for them to build a better world.

 

And I certainly don't mean to disparage a whole generation based just on the most prominent examples, but I think the two Baby Boomer presidents we had certainly seemed to lack a certain discipline, compared to other presidents, even if it was shown in different ways.

 

Then again, I may be reading too much into it. And of course, some Baby Boomers turned out perfectly fine!

[movieman1957]

"The Mutiny On The Bounty" comparison makes sense but the Israelite exodus from Egypt, for my taste, is a stretch.

[rohanaka]

BEWARE: RED RIVER SPILLING OVER

 

Hello Grey River Guy...

 

What's with all this: "I agree with you" stuff??? ha. I was expecting to be "dunked" in the river by the likes of you...ha. :-)

 

thought Cherry VALANCE (John Ireland) would turn on Matt, but he never did. He ended

up being good... and the hothead in the film

 

That's a GREAT way to look at him. Although I can't quite see him as necessarily "good"... I think maybe he just "chose the right thing at the right time" though and stuck with Matt. His OTHER choice (stand up and fight Dunson by himself) could have gotten him killed... if not by Dunson, then certainly by Matt.) And I DO think he liked Matt, for what it's worth. I think he saw him as a "friendly rival". (and Matt more or less saw him the same) And I kept waiting for the big "betrayal" moment too. I guess it DID happen... in a way... but not w/ Matt. He DID turn on Dunson. I guess everybody did. But Cherry seemed to be one of the few men who actually LIKED it.

 

Really? I didn't see it as being all that grey of a film

 

Oh... there might not have been "grey" but there WAS "GRAY"...ha. I think mostly what I was referring to was the "right and wrong" being a little blurry sometimes. WAS it wrong for Dunson to expect those men to follow through w/ their committment? He told them up front from the very beginning what they were getting into and he specifically told them DON'T sign on if you can't take it. And he didn't judge ANYONE who didn't want to go. So.... when things got a little "edgy"..... they got a little "gray".... sort of. There were other things too... but that is the biggest grey... I mean GRAY.... patch for me. (HEY!! Do you know that because of YOU I know can't even SPELL Grey with an A anymore w/out first changing it from an E... you've corrupted my spelling!!! ha!!)

 

You never want to embarrass a man in front of other men, especially HIS men. Would a

"father" want to kill his own "son" over such a thing? That's where it does become more of

a stretch. But pride can be a dangerous motivator. Some will stop at nothing to

be right, particularly men. Admitting one is wrong is a sign of weakness to some guys

 

I think you have nailed it there.... reason takes a back seat when pride steps in.

 

rohanaka: But honestly.. I thought the whole "woman" angle was not really done as well as it

could have been

 

Grey Guy: I agree with you. Ahhhh, Hawks

 

Your kidding.... I am SHOCKED... you AGREE with me about the WOMEN???? I am almost speechless... (almost but not quite..ha.)

 

You are right, the film didn't really need the female aspect, and it would have helped

the ending if it wasn't in it. However, I do like the female angle of the film. I'm one who

does believe a woman can make a man listen, even the toughest of men.

 

Ok.. now I'm shocked....and confused...ha. Not really... I do see your point.. and Chris's too..(Chris.. I'll be back in a minute). It just didn't work for me as well as I wanted it to.

 

Red River was one of the first westerns I watched when I got into westerns. In fact, it

was my first Wayne film. I really liked it after my first viewing. I think the biggest reason

why was because Wayne played a character I never expected to see from him. It made me

look at Wayne in a very good way.

 

Wow.. I'm impressed. And I like that you have been giving the Duke a fair chance.... And it probably stands to reason that you DID like him in this film.... He did a great job and his character was just so dark.... Mr. Noir.

 

I like Clift and I thought he was very good in this film. I prefer him in other films, though

 

What other Clift films do you like him in? I have only seen him in a couple... and up to this film... my favorite role for him was the slimy Maurice in The Heiress.

 

My favorite scene is whenDunson and Groot (Walter Brennan) are attacked away from the first wagon train. I love the "flaming arrow" shot.

 

I liked that part too.. I think that whole bit is one of the better parts of the story... I like how they decide not to outrun the Indians but rather just more or less sit down and wait for them to show up....

 

However, I believe the film really lacks high points.

 

There are a few.... but not as many as I would like... I thought the scenes with the cattle (sometimes they flowed over the hills and rocks like water) were pretty well done. And I liked how they drove them into town and there were so many of them, they had to leave them in the street. That is STILL why I just can't "get" Dunson not "getting over" his "I'm gonna kill Matt" mindset. When he see's all that... but again... it's that "pride" thing, I guess.

 

Fathers spend so much of their time showing and telling their sons how to become

a man, just as Dunson does with Matt. Fathers want their sons to be strong and to

make decisions, to stand on their own feet. Where fathers sometimes struggle with

their grown sons is when they disagree with them. Here they teach their boy to do for

self but when their boy goes against their wishes, they sometimes feel betrayed. The

balance between pride and proud.

 

Wow, look at you... that is TERRIFIC. Very well said, sir. Now it is my turn to agree with YOU!! :-)

 

(I like how Jackie put it too... "stand up for vs stand up to")

 

Good job wading around in the river here, sir. Very nice rambling.

 

PS... Chris:

 

The more he loses control the more I think he tries to keep it. It then escalates to him being by himself.

 

That is a PERFECT way to describe Dunson and his state of mind.

 

Though the female angle is small I can't imagine what else would have brought father and son together again. I doubt it would have been the money.

 

I think between reading your words... and now the Grey Guy's... I am letting up a little on my thoughts about the "woman" thing... I guess they both DID have an integral part in the story line... I just wish maybe Dru's character at least had come off a little different.

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Jackie -- I loved what you said about fathers teaching their sons to stand

up for themselves, but never realizing that they might eventually have to stand up to them.

 

Very good! You just said what I wanted to say in one sentence. Now that's talent.

 

We've missed your rambles here the last few weeks. Please don't tell me you are

reverting to your old slacker ways.

 

Your Wagon Master as a Fordian blue film woke me up. Wait until I return to

discussing Harvey with Molo.

 

Howdy, Cowboy Chris -- Great job. And we didn't have to wait long for it.

 

Some days I'm not myself.

 

I may not be quite in agreement on Wayne losing "it" too easily in that the whole

movie he is on a short fuse.

 

Say what?! I'm going to kill you, Movieman.

 

 

At the beginning he kills one of the men who meet him and he sends the other back

with the message. He is always about how tough life is and what you have to be

prepared to do. He cannot be seen as weak. And no one in authority likes having

that authority questioned, never mind over thrown. Dunson will stay in charge no

matter what. He can't or won't see the right or wrong of it. Even when Brennan tells

him he is wrong it doesn't make him change.

 

You are very correct. Dunson kills those who challenge him. He stakes his "claim"

wherever he goes. He became who he is because he challenged Don Diego. Once a

man has success doing something one way, he's likely to stick with it. Dunson had

his way and he wasn't going to change it. I understand this, too. He is the

one who is taking the greatest risk and if he's to fail, he wants to fail doing it his way.

 

The more he loses control the more I think he tries to keep it. It then escalates to him

being by himself.

 

That is absolutely brilliant. Perfectly said. First Shane and now Red River.

You have been on fire!

 

 

Though the female angle is small I can't imagine what else would have brought father

and son together again. I doubt it would have been the money.

 

You're right, again. The small little scene at the beginning of the film with Fen (Coleen Gray)

is so very important because it let's us know Dunson has been loved by women and that

he cares about them. Not just Fen, but also...

 

 

Howdy, White Hat -- What's with all this: "I agree with you" stuff??? ha. I was

expecting to be "dunked" in the river by the likes of you...ha.

 

If your name was "Miss Goddess," I'd just disagree with all that you said and call it a day.

 

That's a GREAT way to look at him. Although I can't quite see him as necessarily

"good"... I think maybe he just "chose the right thing at the right time" though and

stuck with Matt. His OTHER choice (stand up and fight Dunson by himself) could have

gotten him killed... if not by Dunson, then certainly by Matt.)

 

But Cherry never did anything bad. I think he was presented to us as a red herring. The

way John Ireland plays Cherry, it makes you think he's hiding his true face. Did he have

the potential to be bad? Most definitely. I could see him turning on anyone.

 

And I DO think he liked Matt, for what it's worth. I think he saw him as a "friendly rival".

(and Matt more or less saw him the same)

 

That's how I viewed their relationship, as well. Sergio Leone actually steals the

shooting competition scene for his film A Few Dollars More. Clint Eastwood and

Lee Van Cleef show each other that both are highly skilled with the piece. A respect is

quickly born.

 

And I kept waiting for the big "betrayal" moment too. I guess it DID happen... in a

way... but not w/ Matt. He DID turn on Dunson. I guess everybody did. But Cherry

seemed to be one of the few men who actually LIKED it.

 

Cherry ended up being too sure of himself. Matt knew better.

 

Oh... there might not have been "grey" but there WAS "GRAY"...ha. I think mostly

what I was referring to was the "right and wrong" being a little blurry sometimes. WAS

it wrong for Dunson to expect those men to follow through w/ their committment? He

told them up front from the very beginning what they were getting into and he specifically

told them DON'T sign on if you can't take it. And he didn't judge ANYONE who didn't want

to go. So.... when things got a little "edgy"..... they got a little "gray".... sort of.

 

Well, you are right, Dunson did tell his men he didn't want any quitters. He'd rather a man

be upfront with him than turn tail. He was right to get upset over that. But was he right

to kill them for doing it? That's where the problem is. Simms (Hank Worden) says it

best:

 

 

 

 

By the way, I really like Hank Worden in Red River. Hawks gave him a pretty big

role and I enjoyed seeing and hearing him.

 

There were other things too... but that is the biggest grey... I mean GRAY.... patch

for me. (HEY!! Do you know that because of YOU I know can't even SPELL Grey with

an A anymore w/out first changing it from an E... you've corrupted my spelling!!! ha!!)

 

What do you expect? I'm corrupt!

 

reason takes a back seat when pride steps in.

 

Very nicely said. Men often struggle with that word, "pride."

 

Your kidding.... I am SHOCKED... you AGREE with me about the WOMEN???? I am

almost speechless... (almost but not quite..ha.)

 

You, speechless? That'll be the day.

 

Wow.. I'm impressed. And I like that you have been giving the Duke a fair

chance.... And it probably stands to reason that you DID like him in this film.... He

did a great job and his character was just so dark.... Mr. Noir.

 

I've yet to see a poor Duke performance. Not bad.

 

What other Clift films do you like him in? I have only seen him in a couple... and

up to this film... my favorite role for him was the slimy Maurice in The Heiress.

 

I've also seen Clift in A Place in the Sun, I Confess, and The Misfits. I

like him most in A Place in the Sun, but he's brilliant in I Confess.

Red River sees a very loose Clift, which is a nice change of pace.

 

I liked that part too.. I think that whole bit is one of the better parts of the story... I like

how they decide not to outrun the Indians but rather just more or less sit down and wait

for them to show up.

 

I was thinking how much that must have ate at Dunson, too. To know the woman you love

is most likely captured or killed would be a horrific thought and feeling. It would be tough for

a man not to go and find out, but you would only be inviting your own death, as Dunson

knows.

 

However, I believe the film really lacks high points.

 

There are a few.... but not as many as I would like... I thought the scenes with the

cattle (sometimes they flowed over the hills and rocks like water) were pretty well

done. And I liked how they drove them into town and there were so many of them,

they had to leave them in the street.

 

All of the shots with the cattle are impressive to me. I would have hate to have been

a cattle wrangler on that set.

 

As you said, Red River is mostly a psychological western. Anxiety and paranoia

soon take root on the drive. At first, it's Dunson who is dealing with paranoia, but once

Matt usurps him, the paranoia lands on him. The son assumes control of the family

business.

 

That is STILL why I just can't "get" Dunson not "getting over" his "I'm gonna kill Matt"

mindset. When he see's all that... but again... it's that "pride" thing, I guess.

 

Yeah, that's a stupid guy thing. Believe it or not, I always think of the Fonz with this.

The Fonz struggled to say he was "sorry" or "wrong." Boy, does that ever ring true

with so many guys. And if you ever embarrass us stupid guys in front of others, LOOK

OUT. That's a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[lzcutter]

According to interviews with Hawks, Wayne was concerned about Clift having the heft to carry the role. He didn't think that Clift would be believable in the fight scenes especially.

 

Hawks convinced Wayne to work with him to make Clift beautiful. In the final fight scene, according to Hawks, Wayne was surprised at how well Clift handled the entire sequence.

 

With all that dust flying around from the final fight, I'm having a hard time, breathing. Must be the dusty air.

[FrankGrimes]

According to interviews with Hawks, Wayne was concerned about Clift having the heft

to carry the role. He didn't think that Clift would be believable in the fight scenes especially.

 

It's certainly a mismatch in terms of size. But don't underestimate the fight in the dog.

 

Hawks convinced Wayne to work with him to make Clift beautiful. In the final fight

scene, according to Hawks, Wayne was surprised at how well Clift handled the entire

sequence.

 

It's a rather quick scene, at least what we see. I don't know how much Hawks

filmed, though.

 

With all that dust flying around from the final fight, I'm having a hard time, breathing. Must

be the dusty air.

 

It's either that or Quiet Gal's burning supper again.

[lzcutter]

Remember what I posted a couple of weeks ago, Hawks liked pairing Wayne with someone of a smaller stature. He thought it was a mistake to ever cast Wayne across from someone of the same size. There's no drama to that in Hawk's eye.

 

And I meant believable not beautiful. My fingers are moving faster than brain in trying to stay ahead of the dust storm.

[FrankGrimes]

Remember what I posted a couple of weeks ago, Hawks liked pairing Wayne with

someone of a smaller stature.

 

Yes, "Mutt and Jeff."

 

He thought it was a mistake to ever cast Wayne across from someone of the same

size. There's no drama to that in Hawk's eye.

 

I actually prefer titan versus titan, but I feel there can be drama in either scenario. The

only thing with film is that the good guy almost always prevails, so this eliminates a lot

of the drama. This is why film noir interests me more than any other "genre." I think it's

the least predictable of "genres." It's also why I believe sports to be the greatest of

dramas, entertainment-wise. I've seen many, many "bad guys" win there. Much to my

chagrin

[OllieTSB]

I think both types of scenes ("Eye to Eye/Titan to Titan" vs. "David & Goliath" - instead of Mutt & Jeff) have their own dynamics that can be useful.

[movieman1957]

*Say what?! I'm going to kill you, Movieman.*

 

Oh no! I have angered the great and powerful Oz.

 

My thought on his being angry too easy was that he was always mad. He spent more time being angry then he was anything else.

 

However, I defer to your wisdom. Don't want anyone, least of all you, upset with me.

[JackFavell]

*The more he loses control the more I think he tries to keep it.*

 

I loved this. I just wanted to see it again.... it's worth repeating....

 

Isn't this where all men seem to have trouble? Control.... but you can't control things like cattle, men, or emotions. It's like trying to hold water in your hands.... it just runs out somewhere else...

[rohanaka]

Howdy, White Hat

 

HELLLOOO Mr. Grey Hat...

 

Boy howdy you are on a ROLL lately... You are a "ramblin' dude" for sure.

 

But Cherry never did anything bad. I think he was presented to us as a red herring. The

way John Ireland plays Cherry, it makes you think he's hiding his true face. Did he have

the potential to be bad? Most definitely. I could see him turning on anyone.

 

That's a perfect way to describe him.... and I think that is why I had such hard time liking him. He was "the wild card" in this whole story...ha. And again... for a LONG time... I thought that would be MATT... but I guess this was one time when my "movie watching ESP" was a bit whacko...ha (ok... I confess... probably only ONE time of many...ha)

 

That's how I viewed their relationship, as well. Sergio Leone actually steals the

shooting competition scene for his film A Few Dollars More.

 

I did not know that... I have never been a big Clint fan... I know I have seen some of his westerns... but I can't recall that one... I may have to check it out now, if only to see that part of it... because it was really one of the better parts of RR. I like how that all played out.

 

But was he right to kill them for doing it? That's where the problem is. Simms (Hank Worden) says it best:

 

Well.. you have me there...ha. I know I said it was gray... but THAT aspect of it clearly isn't.. and yes... I liked the line about trying to read the Lord in as a partner... it was a "wise" observation from someone who did not really appear to be that deep of a thinker...ha. (And ps... I liked this role for him too... he did a great job w/ it... but I always like him...)

 

You, speechless? That'll be the day

 

I know.... sad but true... there is WAY too much evidence to the contrary isn't there??? ( But I DID say... I was ALMOST speechless...ha. At least it wasn't an out right lie...ha.)

 

I've yet to see a poor Duke performance. Not bad.

 

Some are better than others... but I know I am a bit biased since he is my favorite. I haven't seen ALL of his movies yet.... but what I have always liked his performance.

 

I've also seen Clift in A Place in the Sun, I Confess, and The Misfits. I

like him most in A Place in the Sun, but he's brilliant in I Confess.

 

I need to go look those up because I haven't seen ANY of them. Although I have read a LOT about The Misfits on here... I am not sure why I've never made a point of seeking that one out sooner...

 

Believe it or not, I always think of the Fonz with this.

The Fonz struggled to say he was "sorry" or "wrong."

 

HA!! I still remember that too..ha. ("I was wuh... wuh.... wru...wru"") He never can say it can he??? :-)

 

PS.. Ms Cutter....

According to interviews with Hawks, Wayne was concerned about Clift having the heft to carry the role. He didn't think that Clift would be believable in the fight scenes especially.

 

Hawks convinced Wayne to work with him to make Clift beautiful. In the final fight scene, according to Hawks, Wayne was surprised at how well Clift handled the entire sequence

 

I love these bits of intersting facts that you always bring in here... it is fun to get some of the story behind the story...

 

And PSS... OllieT... DAVID VS GOLIATH...that's it exactly...

 

OH.... and GREY DUDE:

 

It's either that or Quiet Gal's burning supper again.

 

Keep talking Mr. "I eat sawdust and LIKE it"... and I will get old Dunson to ride into town and plug YOU full of holes.... (and little Joanne Dru and I both will do NOTHING to stop him...ha)

 

Oh... hey... I just thought of something.... I know of a self professed HAWKS fan... who has been STRANGELY silent in all of this.....

 

WHERE IS that Mad Hat MOLO??????????? I figured he'd have mosied along in here by NOW for sure... (I dont' think he ever showed up for Rio Bravo either....) Don't tell me we have another one of those "Man From Laramie" situations.... Grey Guy.... I think this desperado has picked up some of your old bad habits...) WHAT HAVE I done with my rope?????

[lzcutter]

Part of the problem with Cherry Valance's storyline is that it ended up on the editing room floor after actor John Ireland developed a love interest in Joanna Dru and Howard Hawks didn't want Ireland to be his rival for Dru's affections.

[JackFavell]

That strategy worked out well for Hawks....

[rohanaka]

OH MY GOLLY!!

 

The INTRIGUE of it all!! (Sounds like Hawks had a way of keeping folks under his thumb) ha.

 

I wonder now what we missed RE: Cherry's story line.

[JackFavell]

OH my gosh, guys! I went and got my copy of interviews with Peter Bogdanovich last night, and as I was reading the Howard Hawks interviews I found a wealth of information. I think you will get a kick out of some of these quotes by Hawks himself. I am SO sorry - it is long, but it just cracked me up because you guys were _so_ on target in your discussion of *Red River.*

 

>Wayne is a man who made a big mistake and lost the girl he really loved because of ambition and his great desire to have land of his own. Having made a mistake it would, of course, make him all the more anxious to go through with his plans. Because a man who has made a great mistake to get somewhere is not going to stop at small things. He built up an empire and it was falling to pieces. He warned them about what they were getting into and said there would be no quitting. And they quit on him. We were walking a tightrope with a story like that.: Are you still going to like Wayne- or not? Fortunately we ended up with a good characterization and you did like Wayne. Let's say his motive was entirely self-centered. In contrast, Cary Grant in Only Angels Have Wings had no selfish motivation at all. He was doing a job for a man he liked- a man who was unable to do it himself- so it was pure friendship. But either way you accept it because it is a good premise to go on.

 

>Actually, his love turned to the boy because of her. Clift's girl (Joanna Dru) says in the end - in a rather corny scene, but it was the truth-- "Quit that fighting. You love each other." I didn't think that scene was too believable, but it worked out all right.

 

>I never liked it. I don't know-- I had some other idea for it. I think she didn't ring true.

 

Then it isn't the scene that bothers you so much as the execution of it?

 

>That happens all the time when you're making a movie. You have a scene you want to do, and then all of a sudden you haven't got it. But there wasn't anything to do --we were stuck. I didn't know any other way to end the picture because that wasthe ending. I think she just failed in it. She did a very good job for the fact she'd had no experience. The other would have been six times as good.

 

Which other one?

 

>The one who was going to do the picture - Maggie Sheridan.

 

You later used her in The Thing?

 

>Yes.

 

Why didn't she do it?

 

>She came in the day before we were headed to Arizona with all the costumes made and everything, and closed the door and said, "I'm pregnant." So I was stuck. I had Joanne Dru under contract to do comedies- musicals, light things, not to play this kind of stuff- so they had to make new costumes and ship her down there. Maggie had been taught by a fellow how to deal cards and the whole idea was this woman couldn't be a wh--re, because she was too good at cards - that sort of thing. She had some great stuff to do. But Maggie married a dull man and led a dull life for about 5 years. When she came back she wasn't the same person. If she had done Red River, she would've been a star.

 

You were criticized at the time for the ending in that neither Wayne nor Clift were killed; did you have any thoughts on that?

 

>No, the premise of the last scene, I think is logical. If we overdid it a little bit or went too far, well, as I said, I didn't know any other way to end it. I certainly would've hated to kill one of them. It frustrates me to start killing people off for no reason at all. I did it in The Dawn Patrol, but when I finished it I realized how close I came to messing it up, and I didn't want to monkey with that again.

[lzcutter]

Jackie,

 

Is that from Bogdanovich's Who the Devil Made It or another collection of interviews by him?

[JackFavell]

Yes, it's from Who the Devil Made It. I picked up that book from my shelf because of the PB thread that I looked at yesterday..

 

There is also a discussion of headwear that I would love to copy in here......

 

Message was edited by: JackFavell

[rohanaka]

OH MY GOLLY ME!! That was a really interesting read... thanks Ms. Favell...

 

And PS...

 

There is also a discussion of headwear that I would love to copy in here......

 

Do you mean a discussion about.....

 

HATS?????????????????????????????????

 

OH...NOW I am on the edge of my seat for sure!!! ha.