Western Movie Rambles

[MissGoddess]

Ha! Aren't you the one who is always telling me to "go to the devil" and encouraging

Quiet Gal to "get the rope"? I could have sworn that was you.

 

As usual, I am being falsley maligned.

 

You know, I can finally rank the cavalry trilogy.

 

You can't! that would mean you watched FORT APACHE and that's impossible!

 

My ranking is thus, I don't think it's changed since Ken asked about it

back in the day:

 

Rio Grande

Fort Apache

She Wore a Yellow Ribbon

 

Is yours the same? I'm guessing it is.

 

Kathy---have you seen F.A.?

[FrankGrimes]

As usual, I am being falsley maligned.

 

So long as you're being maligned, I'm all for it.

 

You can't! that would mean you watched FORT APACHE and that's impossible!

 

You're right! It's impossible.

 

My ranking is thus, I don't think it's changed since Ken asked about it

back in the day:

 

Rio Grande

Fort Apache

She Wore a Yellow Ribbon

 

Ohhh, who cares what a blondle "thinks."

 

Is yours the same? I'm guessing it is.

 

[MissGoddess]

Is that an answer?

[rohanaka]

Kathy---have you seen F.A.?

 

Why yes I have..... and by the way... w/ the three listed... I just was talking elsewhere this past weekend and I believe I ranked them in the same order you just did... BUT.... I have to confess w/ RG and FA.... it goes back and forth sometimes depending on which one I am watching at the moment...

 

PS... MR GREY.... you have maligned my cooking yet again. I fear retribution is at hand for you.....

 

Perhaps a dose of:

 

 

BEFORE the hanging...

 

And PS... don't bother running to "Groot" for your grub.... there is a NEW cook at the old chuckwagon now... and look.... he's got his own rope!!!

 

;

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Cowgirl Zucchini -- you have maligned my cooking yet again. I fear retribution

is at hand for you.

 

I see a big green leaf. That's poison! And are those Texas crackers? Don't make me eat

them! Kill me now!

 

Howdy, Mrs. Hunter -- Is that an answer?

 

What kind of answer are you seeking?

[lzcutter]

*What kind of answer are you seeking?*

 

Not sure about Mrs. Hunter, but I am always seeking the universal kind, like to the question, Why?

 

And you should eat your greens, they're good for you! I'm sure MotherGrimes told you that on more than one occasion.

[MissGoddess]

Howdy, Mrs. Hunter --

What kind of answer are you seeking?

 

[FrankGrimes]

 

Oh, no! You're looking to make me watch every Ford and Cooper film!

[MissGoddess]

Oh, no! You're looking to make me watch every Ford and Cooper film!

 

It's a start, anyway.

[lzcutter]

*Oh, no! You're looking to make me watch every Ford and Cooper film!*

 

You say that like you think it's a bad thing.....

[FrankGrimes]

It's a start? If that's a start, I'm finished!

 

[MissGoddess]

So it took John Ford to drive you to drink?

[MissGoddess]

Hello, Kathy!

 

Why yes I have..... and by the way... w/ the three listed... I just was talking elsewhere this past weekend and I believe I ranked them in the same order you just did... BUT.... I have to confess w/ RG and FA.... it goes back and forth sometimes depending on which one I am watching at the moment...

 

Well, it looks like we've got a Fort Apache newbie here, though he still can't seem

to bear the thought of admitting it.

 

I know what you mean about the order of preference---only the fact that Rio Grande is

so romantic makes it firmly number one---and I mean it's _palpably_ romantic (I think it has

one of Ford's most intense screen couplings---amazing it was Duke and Maureen's first movie

together! They act like they really WERE married!)

 

However, for just an all around exciting story with a broad context and one of Henry Fonda's

most interesting screen performances, Fort Apache is a winner. I consider it one of Pappy's

most entertaining films, dark as the central character is in many ways. Funny, Ethan Edwards

would be another "thorny" character at the center of a major Ford western, but "Ethan" manages

to tap into some sympathetic veins with his connection to "Martha" and "Debbie".

 

Fonda never budges or relents. But do we hate him? I'm curious what others

really think about Colonel Thursday? I hate his misconceptions and egotism, but

I still can't help but admire him in a way! It's crazy, and I'm probably the only one

who feels that way about him.

 

I love this character for Fonda. Gad, it's unlike anything he ever did before or

since?? He hits every note perfectly. I can hardly believe it's Fonda. Maybe his character

in the Leone movie is just as a-typical, although of a different stripe? Yes? No?

[JackFavell]

Fort Apache is my favorite. Black and White.... unromantic......very confrontational. Serious drama. I love it.

 

I agree about Fonda's Thursday. He is cold, tight and uncomfortable. a stickler for every little detail. The kind of person I usually dislike intensely. Why don't I? I actually feel a little sorry for him, and yes, I do admire him in a way too. He never compromises and he is honest.

 

I wonder if this was closer to Fonda's real personality...

[MissGoddess]

I wonder if this was closer to Fonda's real personality...

 

 

 

What do you think?

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

> *Oh, no! You're looking to make me watch every Ford and Cooper film!*

>

> You say that like you think it's a bad thing.....

 

Imagine that!

[JackFavell]

Oh, for goodness sake......

[FrankGrimes]

FORT APACHE SPOILER CHARGE!

 

So it took John Ford to drive you to drink?

 

Noooooooooooo, it wasn't John Ford.

 

Well, it looks like we've got a Fort Apache newbie here, though he still can't seem

to bear the thought of admitting it.

 

I'm embarrassed!

 

I know what you mean about the order of preference---only the fact that Rio Grande

is so romantic makes it firmly number one---and I mean it's palpably romantic (I think

it has one of Ford's most intense screen couplings---amazing it was Duke and

Maureen's first movie together! They act like they really WERE married!)

 

Rio Grande's emotional depth is what resonates most with me. You not only

get the refinding of love between Kirby (John Wayne) and Kathleen (Maureen O'Hara),

but you also get to see Kirby and Kathleen with their son, Jeff (Claude Jarman, Jr.). The

final shot of the film is one of my favorite in Ford's films.

 

However, for just an all around exciting story with a broad context and one of Henry

Fonda's most interesting screen performances, Fort Apache is a winner. I consider it

one of Pappy's most entertaining films, dark as the central character is in many ways.

Funny, Ethan Edwards would be another "thorny" character at the center of a major Ford

western, but "Ethan" manages to tap into some sympathetic veins with his connection

to "Martha" and "Debbie".

 

What I like most about Fort Apache is the final act. It's one of the best I've seen of

Ford's. And the ending is definitely the precursor to The Man Who Shot Liberty

Valance. I greatly prefer The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance because of the

triangle relationship between Doniphon (John Wayne), Hallie (Vera Miles), and Ranse

(James Stewart). You're not going to find many love triangles that are much better or

sacrifice. It's emotionally powerful. Fort Apache is more about command and

commands.

 

 

 

Fonda never budges or relents. But do we hate him? I'm curious what others

really think about Colonel Thursday? I hate his misconceptions and egotism, but

I still can't help but admire him in a way! It's crazy, and I'm probably the only one

who feels that way about him.

 

I believe Captain Yorke felt as you did. Despite his stubborn and wrongheaded way,

Thursday's (Henry Fonda) willingness to fight his own battles ended up earning him

some respect. He did it his way.

 

 

For me, there were a couple critical moments that made me respect Thursday despite

my finding him to be foolishly unyielding, tragically so.

 

The most important being:

 

 

Thursday was arrogantly and ignorantly blind but he still loved his daughter. In the end, he

put aside his own personal feelings for hers. He was able to see her.

 

I love this character for Fonda. Gad, it's unlike anything he ever did before or

since?? He hits every note perfectly. I can hardly believe it's Fonda. Maybe his character

in the Leone movie is just as a-typical, although of a different stripe? Yes? No?

 

I find Fonda's "Thursday" to be more fascinating than his "Frank" in Once Upon

a Time in the West. I think it's one of Fonda's best performances. He is pitch, posture

perfect. Fonda never ceases to amaze me. He was a brilliant actor.

 

[MissGoddess]

More spoilers....

 

Rio Grande's emotional depth is what resonates most with me. You not only

get the refinding of love between Kirby (John Wayne) and Kathleen (Maureen O'Hara),

but you also get to see Kirby and Kathleen with their son, Jeff (Claude Jarman, Jr.). The

final shot of the film is one of my favorite in Ford's films.

 

Oh, I so agree! It's such unique little western, I don't know, I say that about all his

films.

 

What I like most about Fort Apache is the final act. It's one of the best I've seen of

Ford's. And the ending is definitely the precursor to The Man Who Shot Liberty

Valance.

 

Are you referring to that scene, with the reporters? Or earlier, at the battle?

 

Ford did love to show losing battles.

 

I greatly prefer The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance because of the

triangle relationship between Doniphon (John Wayne), Hallie (Vera Miles), and Ranse

(James Stewart). You're not going to find many love triangles that are much better or

sacrifice. It's emotionally powerful.

 

Oh absolutely, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is just in another

realm for me.

 

Fort Apache is more about command and commands.

 

Yes, it is. I also like the several different kinds of "families" at the fort. Happy ones

(the O'Rourkes, the Collingwoods), uneasy ones (the Thursdays) and makeshift

ones (the group as a whole at the outpost).

 

For me, there were a couple critical moments that made me respect Thursday despite

my finding him to be foolishly unyielding, tragically so.

 

The most important being:

 

Do you know I watched this movie many times before I picked up that Thursday

was sending young O'Rourke to safety?

 

I find it interesting that once again in a Ford film, we have a man who is "damaged"

and who has lost his woman. It seems to me that men who have lost their way

(at least emotionally) in Pappy's films, are the ones without a wife or mother.

 

Thursday was arrogantly and ignorantly blind but he still loved his daughter.

In the end, he put aside his own personal feelings for hers. He was able to see her.

 

Now I don't recall that---when and how did he finally "see" her? It's been a few months

since I last watched it and I can't remember any sort of understanding arrived at by

the these two...

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[FrankGrimes]

TELL COCHISE, WE'VE GOT SPOILERS

 

Oh, I so agree! It's such unique little western, I don't know, I say that about all his

films.

 

I respond to the emotion in Ford's films. The emotion in Rio Grande connects

with me the most. Maureen O'Hara is a big reason why. Just seeing her do Kirby's

laundry resonates strongly with me. The love and respect between husband and

wife is powerful. It's another kind of "duty" in a Ford film.

 

Are you referring to that scene, with the reporters? Or earlier, at the battle?

 

The scene with the reporters and the entire theme of heroism in the eyes of "history."

We then get to hear Captain Yorke's speech about the "other" men, the "Doniphons."

 

Ford did love to show losing battles.

 

But I haven't seen one more spectacular and tragic than that. I loved the last swarm

and the fixed shot of the bunker while the Apache rode through. It's definitely one of my

favorite images I've seen in a Ford film. Very strong.

 

Do you know I watched this movie many times before I picked up that Thursday

was sending young O'Rourke to safety?

 

You're such a blondle!

 

I find it interesting that once again in a Ford film, we have a man who is "damaged"

and who has lost his woman. It seems to me that men who have lost their way

(at least emotionally) in Pappy's films, are the ones without a wife or mother.

 

That's a very good point. I agree with you. Thursday is a bitter man who feels he's

been disrespected by the those above him. He's seeking his glory. His charge was

purely a selfish one. I think it spoke to his loneliness. They Came to Cordura features

a similar "glory" scene, although with different results.

 

A woman does have a way of reaching a man where others cannot...

 

 

 

Now I don't recall that---when and how did he finally "see" her? It's been a few

months since I last watched it and I can't remember any sort of understanding arrived

at by the these two.

 

Thursday knew how serious the battle he and his men were about to enter. If he wanted

to stick to his guns about O'Rourke not seeing his daughter, he would have never asked

Yorke to take him with him. But I feel he chose his daughter and HER wishes by telling

Yorke to take O'Rouke. Thursday YIELDED to his daughter. This speaks to your point

about the influence of woman in Ford's films.

[lzcutter]

*Fort Apache* is the first time Ford embraces the heroic side of a myth created. York defends Thursday's arrogance and tunnel-vision and wraps it up in courage not so much for Philadelphia's sake or for the sake of Thursday's reputation but for all the men who were his friends who followed Thursday into battle.

Ford will explore the dark side of creating a myth in *Liberty Valance* and show us how difficult it is to live a life created on a myth.

 

*She Wore a Yellow Ribbon* is Ford at his finest with lots of tradition and lots of ritual. It gives him a chance to explore a deeper character with Wayne (they began doing that, imho, in *They Were Expendable* ) and this process will reach it's zenith in *The Searchers*. There's lots to love about *SWAYR* as well, Ben Johnson relationship with Nathan as well as Vic McLaglen's.

 

*Rio Grande* makes possible *The Quiet Man* and is on some levels an even more romantic movie.

It again shows a maturing of the relationship between Ford and Wayne that will serve them both very well in their remaining films together.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

> *Fort Apache* is the first time Ford embraces the heroic side of a myth created. York defends Thursday's arrogance and tunnel-vision and wraps it up in courage not so much for Philadelphia's sake or for the sake of Thursday's reputation but for all the men who were his friends who followed Thursday into battle.

 

That is very definitely true, Lynn. Additionally, I was left with the impression at the end of Fort Apache that York also wanted to protect the good image of the U.S. Cavalry, not just for the sake of himself and his friends, but because he's thinking of the larger institution, of which he is of course a small part.

 

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> A woman does have a way of reaching a man where others cannot...

 

Yes, of course. The way to a man's heart is through his stomach. Being a good cook helps!

[MissGoddess]

The love and respect between husband and

wife is powerful. It's another kind of "duty" in a Ford film.

 

That's an interesting point---I like that. "another kind of 'duty'"....

 

We then get to hear Captain Yorke's speech about the "other" men, the "Doniphons."

 

Yes! The "Doniphons". That's true.

 

Does anyone get a sort of feeling that Fonda is passing the torch, so to speak,

to John Wayne in this film? I don't mean consciously, like Ford or anyone planned

it---it just seems to strike me that way when Yorke/Wayne stands in the

foreground and Thursday/Fonda is looking over his shoulder (via the painting).

Also, when Wayne puts on Fonda's cap, he's really stepping into his place...

 

 

But I haven't seen one more spectacular and tragic than that. I loved the last swarm

and the fixed shot of the bunker while the Apache rode through. It's definitely one of my

favorite images I've seen in a Ford film. Very strong.

 

In a book on his westerns I have, it shows a painting of, I believe, Custe's last

stand or something like, and Ford's positioning of the men and framing the shots

looks a lot like that painting. It's very classical looking to me.

 

That's a very good point. I agree with you. Thursday is a bitter man who feels he's

been disrespected by the those above him. He's seeking his glory. His charge was

purely a selfish one. I think it spoke to his loneliness.

 

He's a hollow man, it's like he thinks glory will fill him up.

 

So many different kinds of "leaders" in Pappy's films...some great, some tragically

flawed, some just ordinary men rising to their personal best---and there's nothing

"ordinary" about that.

 

They Came to Cordura features a similar "glory" scene, although with different results.

 

Do you mean that first battle in TCtC?

 

Thursday knew how serious the battle he and his men were about to enter. If he wanted

to stick to his guns about O'Rourke not seeing his daughter, he would have never asked

Yorke to take him with him. But I feel he chose his daughter and HER wishes by telling

Yorke to take O'Rouke. Thursday YIELDED to his daughter. This speaks to your point

about the influence of woman in Ford's films.

 

That's one of my favorite things you've written. It's very good!

[rohanaka]

OH FOR PITY'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I leave this place for a few hours and come back.... and... WOW!!!!!!

 

I see I now have a TON of catching up to do....

 

I last watched this film back in the early part of the year (just around New Years if I recall) but I want to see it again before chiming in (oh who am I kidding... just reading all this stuff made me want to watch it again... ha). And PS... I KNOW where my tape of THIS movie is... HA! (sorry Jackie)

 

Great rambling my friends!!!

 

PS April:

AGGGGHHHH What did you do to me????? HA! THAT is the one movie that just makes me so sick to my stomach I can't even stand the thought of it.... (OH! those beautiful, HORRIBLE, terrifying, gut wrenching EYES!!!!! ha.) Break out the Pepto Bismol... BLECH!!!!!

 

Grey Guy... if you bring up my cooking again.... I swear I'm gonna.........................

[FrankGrimes]

WHO SPOILED THE FORT APACHE PUNCH?

 

Does anyone get a sort of feeling that Fonda is passing the torch, so to speak,

to John Wayne in this film? I don't mean consciously, like Ford or anyone planned

it---it just seems to strike me that way when Yorke/Wayne stands in the

foreground and Thursday/Fonda is looking over his shoulder (via the painting).

Also, when Wayne puts on Fonda's cap, he's really stepping into his place.

 

No, I didn't think of that and it's fantastic! I like it a lot. I was wondering if Fonda would

have played "Ranse" in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance if he and Ford didn't

have a falling out. Ranse seems like a Fonda character, especially when placed against

John Wayne's "Doniphon." But could Fonda bring a warmth to Ranse that James

Stewart did? Yes, I said it, Ranse is a warm character... before his political career.

 

In a book on his westerns I have, it shows a painting of, I believe, Custe's last

stand or something like, and Ford's positioning of the men and framing the shots

looks a lot like that painting. It's very classical looking to me.

 

Now that is truly fascinating. I love that Ford keeps his distance at the end. The men

die as a group.

 

He's a hollow man, it's like he thinks glory will fill him up.

 

Well, he does get his wish in the end. He dies a "hero."

 

So many different kinds of "leaders" in Pappy's films...some great, some tragically

flawed, some just ordinary men rising to their personal best---and there's nothing

"ordinary" about that.

 

Terrific point. Did you learn that at West Point?

 

Do you mean that first battle in TCtC?

 

Yes. Colonel Rogers (Robert Keith) seeks glory and a reward for his ill-conceived

attack. He's bailed out by the bravery and skill of some of his men.

 

Thursday knew how serious the battle he and his men were about to enter. If he

wanted to stick to his guns about O'Rourke not seeing his daughter, he would have

never asked Yorke to take him with him. But I feel he chose his daughter and HER

wishes by telling Yorke to take O'Rouke. Thursday YIELDED to his daughter. This

speaks to your point about the influence of woman in Ford's films.

 

That's one of my favorite things you've written. It's very good!

 

Thank you! I'm trying. I'm at least trying.