Western Movie Rambles

[FrankGrimes]

Make that Ranse's ONLY defender. :p

 

Well, I was told I preferred lonely places to warm shops.

 

While I do think, yes, he likes the idea of exposing people to a wider world,

I still question the motives. I do so because of FORD and the source story.

I think the director deliberately kept things rather unspecified about Ranse's

motivations and that must be why different people have different views. Did

you read that review I posted? The author seems to think as you do.

 

No, I haven't read the review. I'm still trying to get caught up on some of the posts

around here.

 

I feel Thursday was the one who was impacted the most by his wife's passing,

maybe subconsciously. He's not a reflective man so I don't see him mourning her

consciously, but she was his "softer" side I bet, I think. Philadelphia doesn't act

like she remembers her mother as clearly. I get the feeling she'd been dead a

while. Do you or anyone else remember better?

 

Do you know what I find so fascinating about what you just wrote? Ford flipped

the script. In films like Judge Priest, Young Mr. Lincoln, My Darling

Clementine, and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, we see men who talk to their

dearly departed. In Fort Apache, we don't. Granted, Thursday has Philadelphia

to keep his home flame burning, but, still, he's not a reflective man, as you so wisely

pointed out. That's a terrific observation by you.

 

ha! No, not really, which is why I used the quotes. But I can see the Thursday family

back East looking askance. It's his background they'd find "rough".

 

Oh, now I get it. I'd say you're right about that.

 

You really notice "endings" in movies alot. You even said once that the ending

of Fritz Lang's Fury really kept the movie low for you.

 

It all depends. I still like Red River despite it's weak ending. I like Rio Bravo

despite a rather disappointing ending. You are right about me not liking the ending to

Fury, especially when constrasted with You Only Live Once. I don't like

seeing Spencer Tracy pushed to the background and most Lang courtroom scenes

just lose my interest.

 

 

I'm trying to think what movie endings bother me or enthrall me that much that my

opinion of the whole movie is shaded by them... I tend to shut off movies that end

poorly in my estimation.

 

But my opinion of a film is not shaded by the ending alone. The ending basically helps

lift or lower a film's standing with me. I thought Fort Apache was on the dry side

and not that interesting until the ending. What I was most captivated by prior to the

ending was Henry Fonda's performance. He was my interest. But the story wasn't

doing anything for me. But ohhh, that ending. It's so very strong. Ford gives you it all

then. We get conflict, emotion, and visuals. Those are the things I look for most and

I get them all at the end. Before that, not so much. I'm not big on ritual and male

goofiness. That just doesn't do anything for me.

[MissGoddess]

Do you know what I find so fascinating about what you just wrote? Ford flipped

the script. In films like Judge Priest, Young Mr. Lincoln, My Darling

Clementine, and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, we see men who talk to their

dearly departed. In Fort Apache, we don't. Granted, Thursday has Philadelphia

to keep his home flame burning, but, still, he's not a reflective man, as you so wisely

pointed out. That's a terrific observation by you.

 

Thank you! I do think it's because he was played by a richly gifted actor like

Fonda that so unreflective a character could still fascinate.

 

It all depends. I still like Red River despite it's weak ending. I like Rio Bravo

despite a rather disappointing ending. You are right about me not liking the ending to

Fury, especially when constrasted with You Only Live Once. I don't like

seeing Spencer Tracy pushed to the background and most Lang courtroom scenes

just lose my interest.

 

Come to think of it, there was a bit too much of Spencer Tracy just sitting and

listening to the radio. What's exciting about that? A waste of a great actor in

those scenes.

 

But my opinion of a film is not shaded by the ending alone. The ending basically helps

lift or lower a film's standing with me. I thought Fort Apache was on the dry side

and not that interesting until the ending. What I was most captivated by prior to the

ending was Henry Fonda's performance. He was my interest. But the story wasn't

doing anything for me. But ohhh, that ending. It's so very strong. Ford gives you it all

then. We get conflict, emotion, and visuals. Those are the things I look for most and

I get them all at the end. Before that, not so much. I'm not big on ritual and male

goofiness. That just doesn't do anything for me.

 

"Dry" is a good word. It's still richer than I ever thought when I first saw it. I saw

it as an exciting movie, that moved quickly and now going over it I see many details.

But COMPARED to other Ford films, yes, it's dry because there isn't much EMOTIONAL

conflict. The conflict is more of a class and authority nature.

 

To me, because of Fonda's performance mostly, Fort Apache is bracing and crisp

a straight, no chaser.

[FrankGrimes]

Thank you! I do think it's because he was played by a richly gifted actor like

Fonda that so unreflective a character could still fascinate.

 

Fonda's "Thursday" also reminded me of Wayne's "Spig" in The Wings of Eagles.

We must decide if we like these men despite of their glaring faults. And even if we don't,

we still find ourselves fascinated by them.

 

Come to think of it, there was a bit too much of Spencer Tracy just sitting and

listening to the radio. What's exciting about that? A waste of a great actor in

those scenes.

 

Exactly. I felt like Tracy at that point of the film. I felt like I was on the sidelines. Before

that, I REALLY like Fury. Tracy is fantastic and the story is clearly my kind of

story.

 

"Dry" is a good word. It's still richer than I ever thought when I first saw it. I saw

it as an exciting movie, that moved quickly and now going over it I see many details.

But COMPARED to other Ford films, yes, it's dry because there isn't much EMOTIONAL

conflict. The conflict is more of a class and authority nature.

 

Precisely, and that kind of conflict doesn't interest me that much. I much prefer the

emotional power of Rio Grande. I also like the ending to Rio Grande quite

a bit, but I like Fort Apache's more. It's my favorite Ford ending so far, this side

of 3 Bad Men.

 

To me, because of Fonda's performance mostly, Fort Apache is bracing and crisp

a straight, no chaser.

 

Don't tell me you've been in the hooch again, Mrs. Mulcahy.

[MissGoddess]

Fonda's "Thursday" also reminded me of Wayne's "Spig" in The Wings of Eagles.

We must decide if we like these men despite of their glaring faults. And even if we don't,

we still find ourselves fascinated by them.

 

That's an interesting comparison! I had been thinking more of Ethan, except Ethan isn't "empty" like Thursday. Neither is "Spig" but he is just as "one-track minded" that's for sure. He's the ambition and ego with a genial, likable personality glossing it over.

 

Exactly. I felt like Tracy at that point of the film. I felt like I was on the sidelines. Before

that, I REALLY like Fury. Tracy is fantastic and the story is clearly my kind of

story.

 

He's so wonderful in it, such an amazing actor who can shift emotional gears---convincingly---quicker than anyone I ever saw. And all the while not sacrificing a certain, grounded rationality.

That makes him even more pitiable to me in that HORRIBLE trapped situation he finds himself

in. *Fury* is one of the most shocking movies I've ever seen, for those mob scenes. I still have

a HUGE amount of trouble watching them.

 

 

Jimmy Stewart can go all over the map emotionally, too, but he frequently comes across as

irrational or neurotic when he does so. Most people do, but not Tracy, that's why I think

he's so unique, I guess. One of the reasons, anyway.

 

It's my favorite Ford ending so far, this side of 3 Bad Men.

 

The Searchers and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance are my favorite Ford

movie endings. And 3 Bad Men. All of them break my heart, though.

 

Don't tell me you've been in the hooch again, Mrs. Mulcahy.

 

Not a drop and you can smell my breath Captain!

[FrankGrimes]

That's an interesting comparison! I had been thinking more of Ethan, except Ethan

isn't "empty" like Thursday. Neither is "Spig" but he is just as "one-track minded" that's

for sure. He's the ambition and ego with a genial, likable personality glossing it over.

 

I actually end up liking Ethan as the story progresses. I know you and I disagree with

this, but I feel Marty helps to change Ethan, or at least reaches him emotionally. Spig

just keeps plowing forward, like Thursday.

 

Fury is one of the most shocking movies I've ever seen, for those mob scenes. I still

have a HUGE amount of trouble watching them.

 

 

Jimmy Stewart can go all over the map emotionally, too, but he frequently comes

across as irrational or neurotic when he does so. Most people do, but not Tracy, that's

why I think he's so unique, I guess. One of the reasons, anyway.

 

There's a fierceness to Tracy's emotional outbursts. I never think of Jimmy as being fierce.

I prefer Jimmy's emotionalism to Spencer's, but I do like Spencer's anger.

 

The Searchers and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance are my favorite Ford

movie endings. And 3 Bad Men. All of them break my heart, though.

 

I'd say The Searchers is my fourth favorite ending of the Ford films I have seen. I have

How Green Was My Valley ahead of it.

 

Not a drop and you can smell my breath Captain!

 

Ewwwwwww, onion breath!

[MissGoddess]

Spig just keeps plowing forward, like Thursday.

 

Well said! He certainly does. Everyone likes him, though, but nobody likes

Thursday, except his daughter, and, I think his old friend Collingwood. I like

how there is this suggestiveness about what split the two men. It's never

referred to directly, but Collingwood always looks bemused and is ever

gazing at his old comrade, puzzled, and, I think, a little regretful. What of?

I can't say.

 

I find this, too , has an interesting parallel in the former close friendship

between Ford and George O'Brien, who plays Collingwood. This movie

brought them back together, though not as close friends as before, if

I remember correctly. If Nlld is reading this, maybe they could clarify that.

 

There's a fierceness to Tracy's emotional outbursts. I never think of Jimmy as being fierce.

I prefer Jimmy's emotionalism to Spencer's, but I do like Spencer's anger.

 

Jimmy gets to a point where his eyes bug out and he starts to SCREECH and

he sometimes irritates me with that, lol. Bronxie and I have gone over that,

before, ha! The "Jimmy Stewart Stroke Screech"!

 

Spence never irritates me with his outbursts and he has basically two kinds:

the scary serious kind where he gets even more ultra clear and concise in

his speech and the comical, frustrated kind where he can't get his words out at all!

Remarkable, I tell you.

 

I'd say The Searchers is my fourth favorite ending of the Ford films I have seen. I have

How Green Was My Valley ahead of it.

 

Really!? What don't you like about The Searchers ending? HGWMV is a great ending

too but sooooooo melancholy to me, I always bawl come to think of it at the end of

Ford films!

 

Ewwwwwww, onion breath!

 

That's not what I've been told.

[FrankGrimes]

Well said! He certainly does. Everyone likes him, though, but nobody likes

Thursday, except his daughter, and, I think his old friend Collingwood.

 

That's a terrific point. Thursday is mostly alone. Spig has a loyal friend and a wife

who still loves him, yet he keeps pushing them away. He's headed to loneliness.

Onward and downward.

 

I like how there is this suggestiveness about what split the two men. It's never

referred to directly, but Collingwood always looks bemused and is ever

gazing at his old comrade, puzzled, and, I think, a little regretful. What of?

I can't say.

 

I think Collingwood understands Thursday more than all, including Philadelphia. He

KNOWS not to speak, so he communicates with Thursday through his eyes.

 

 

 

My favorite scene in the first half of the film is the exchange between the two. It really

sets the stage for us:

 

Thursday: Nothing personal in this, Sam.

 

Collingwood: No explanations, Owen. We've never had them before. Although once I

tried.

 

Thursday: There was nothing to explain.

 

Collingwood: No, nothing. You did what you did. Rode to glory. I did what I did. Wound

up at Fort Apache. Well, you've wound up here, too.

 

Thursday: Oh, by thunder, I've not wound up. Not by a jugful. They've pushed me aside,

sent me up to this tenpenny post. But they'll not keep me buried. I'll find something.

 

Collingwood: This isn't a country for glory, Owen.

 

Thursday: I'll take my risks. I always have.

 

Collingwood: Well then, all I can do is wish you luck. And I wish you that sincerely.

 

Thursday: Thank you, Sam.

 

 

 

 

Jimmy gets to a point where his eyes bug out and he starts to SCREECH and

he sometimes irritates me with that, lol. Bronxie and I have gone over that,

before, ha! The "Jimmy Stewart Stroke Screech"!

 

Yes, I know, and I love that about him. Jimmy was one of the best at emoting

"at wit's end."

 

Spence never irritates me with his outbursts and he has basically two kinds:

the scary serious kind where he gets even more ultra clear and concise in

his speech and the comical, frustrated kind where he can't get his words out at all!

Remarkable, I tell you.

 

Spencer Tracy is definitely, as you say, "an actor's actor."

 

Really!? What don't you like about The Searchers ending? HGWMV is a great ending

too but sooooooo melancholy to me, I always bawl come to think of it at the end of

Ford films!

 

I like the ending to The Searchers, but I prefer the others more. I like tragic

endings best. 3 Bad Men, Fort Apache, and How Green Was My Valley

all feature tough endings, although I love the hope in How Green Was My Valley.

 

That's not what I've been told.

 

Floozy!

[MissGoddess]

SPOILERS!

 

Wonderful caps of Collingwood and Thursday! It's great when more can

be said without words.

 

I find the ending of The Searchers so tragic because of Ethan. I seem to lose

interest in the family, they're alright now, and all my attention goes to that lonely figure

wandering off between the winds. It's a lot like 3 Bad Men in its effect on me, though that

one is just...too much. Too tragic!!

[lzcutter]

*I think Collingwood understands Thursday more than all, including Philadelphia.*

 

Collingwood fell from glory before Thursday though I don't think it was from the same height. Something happened in their past. Did Sam take the fall for Thursday earlier in his career? Quite possibly. Given Thursday's ego, ruminate on this:

 

Collingwood got sent to Ft. Apache years before while Thursday rode to glory. Thursday didn't arrive at his overly ambitious, preening self late in life, it was likely always there and one of the things that separated him from the men both at his level and in his command.

 

Given his one-track mind it is likely that he rode to glory on the back of men like Collingwood and lord knows how many screw ups covered by other Captains before it finally catches up with him.

 

Reputation in the military is everything and Thursday was never one to cultivate the loyalty of his men. He expected it because of who he was, his rank and his station. (Compare that to Ward Bond's O'Rourke and Wayne's Kirby Yorke and even Sam Collingwood as well as Nathan Brittles in *SWAYR*, they all know you earn the respect of your fellow officers and enlisted men but Thursday never learned that lesson.)

 

Thursday ends up at this "tenpenny outpost" determined to ride the glory path out never realizing that the Western frontier calls for waging different way, never realizing that actually understanding the enemy you are fighting is key to winning.

 

Because where Thursday comes from, men like him know best and they refuse to listen to those who might be able to help them not be their own worst enemies.

 

Thursday sent Yorke back expecting Yorke to be the fall guy and Thursday would win the battle and ride back East on that glory train while Yorke got sent to another command even more "tenpenny" than Ft. Apache.

 

Fate, however, had different ideas and decided that it was time that Owen Thursday, like George Minafer years later, got his comeuppance and finally learned the lessons that were always there but that he had been too prideful, too arrogant, too sure of himself to listen to.

 

Unfortunately, men like Sam Collingwood and O'Rourke were collateral damage.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> I'm going to pass on it since I already have it. I'm not ready to double-dip on all these

> re-releases, like Psycho, Rear Window, Vertigo, 12 Angry Men,

> High Noon, etc.

>

 

There are movies that are worth it. With The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the reviews suggest that it has been brightened up considerably, and possibly also given a heavy dose of digital noise reduction (DNR). When I see the screenshot comparisons between the older DVD and the re-issue DVD, I'm really not sure which one comes closer to what the movie actually looked like in theaters. Maybe Lynn or someone who has seen it in a theater could have a better idea.

 

Old DVD release (top) and re-issue "Centennial Collection" edition (bottom).

[JackFavell]

Nicely put, lzcutter. I like the backstory you put to the Collingwood/Thursday relationship. It clears a lot up for me. I had thought that Collingwood was an easy mark for Thursday because of his drinking problem, that Thursday had purposefully scapegoated him because of it.... but now I wonder if Thursday was the cause of Collingwood's problem. Of course, it's possible that Collingwood did NOT have a drinking problem at all, and that Thursday simply said he did at the time their friendship ended. Is that is what got Collingwood busted and sent to Fort Apache? Or did he disobey a direct order, and Thursday called him a coward? Or could it have been both? Your interpretation is super. Collingwood, being friends with Thursday, was aware of Thursday's weaknesses and perhaps that is why Thursday had him disposed of to Fort Apache in the first place. He knows where the bodies are buried...but he doesn't rat out Thursday. Instead, he wishes him good luck.

 

I don't think Thursday ever expected to see Collingwood again, so this is another cross he has to bear (in his mind), and another reason for his coldness. It must be unbearable for Thursday to be confronted with a reminder of his past glory, that he should have sunk as low as Sam. It also is probably galling to see someone again who you have done dirt to.....

 

I love this comment:

 

>I like how there is this suggestiveness about what split the two men. It's never referred to directly, but Collingwood always looks bemused and is ever gazing at his old comrade, puzzled, and, I think, a little regretful. What of? I can't say.

 

And Frank, thanks for posting this exchange:

 

Thursday: Nothing personal in this, Sam.

 

Collingwood: No explanations, Owen. We've never had them before. Although once I

tried.

 

Thursday: There was nothing to explain.

 

Collingwood: No, nothing. You did what you did. Rode to glory. I did what I did. Wound

up at Fort Apache. Well, you've wound up here, too.

 

Thursday: Oh, by thunder, I've not wound up. Not by a jugful. They've pushed me aside,

sent me up to this tenpenny post. But they'll not keep me buried. I'll find something.

 

Collingwood: This isn't a country for glory, Owen.

 

Thursday: I'll take my risks. I always have.

 

Collingwood: Well then, all I can do is wish you luck. And I wish you that sincerely.

 

Thursday: Thank you, Sam.

 

Collingwood is the key to the meaning of the movie for me. He is the key to Thursday's past, his soul, everything. I absolutely love the things that happen IN BETWEEN the words of this conversation.... especially in between "There's nothing to explain".. and "No. Nothing." Thursday does not want to hear it. But the way Collingwood speaks his line has immense implications. _He_ has nothing to be ashamed of.

 

>I think Collingwood understands Thursday more than all, including Philadelphia. He KNOWS not to speak, so he communicates with Thursday through his eyes

 

These scenes are the ones that unlock Owen's mystery for me, because we start to see Thursday through Collingwood's eyes...watch Collingwood's reactions in the background. First to the news that Wayne has been demoted:

 

 

I find it really interesting that whenever Fonda is about to do someone wrong, he paces. In this scene, as he replaces Collingwood with Gates as Adjutant, he makes an allusion to laziness and sloppiness - all the while walking directly toward Collingwood. The implication is clear - Collingwood is a lazy cowardly person. Collingwood is again his victim, but Thursday can't look at him....he knows he is doing the wrong thing.....his pride makes him continue the lie he told long ago...

 

 

This scene also is a nice telegraph of the scene in which Thursday actually makes up his mind that HE will bring in Cochise...and he starts pacing all over the room:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I stated in an earlier post that I think Owen is dead or maybe hollow inside. What made him like that, I don't know. Again, I see a parallel to Ethan. I LOVE what you said about Ford's twist - that most of his men carry their dead wives with them....talking to their portraits, or visiting their grave, but not Owen. He has put that away somewhere...He is still so angry I don't think he could bear to look. Maybe he is mad at his wife for leaving him. He is not an introspective type, I don't think he would like what he sees...were he to look closely into his motivations... he seems like he has to run from himself a bit. To put things out of his mind. The obsession fills those ugly spots that he cannot bear to look at.

 

I am not sure that Philadelphia has been brought up exclusively by Thursday. I am more of the opinion that he sent her to boarding schools, had people helping him....I am sure there were women out east who wanted to help just like Mrs. O'Rourke. it is LIKE him to pass off this job to others. It may also be that it was just the two alone to battle the world. He cares for her, maybe deeply, but I see a disconnect in Thursday that prevents him from showing care for others, even in his family. He may be tender with her, but he holds back the thing that is gripping him, the serious stuff that he is all about. I think many men are like this. He may rationalize this by saying to himself, "this will be the best thing for Philadelphia", protecting her, but I still think he is unable to connect with anything but his all-consuming ambition.

 

When confronted with the idea of death, he goes to it immediately... he is consumed with the rightness of it, and the glory of it. He is in love with his idea of fame, and there is nothing that will come between him and the thing he desires. He has sold his soul for it, and even when realizing his error, in paying his retribution, he is still singleminded and focused on his goal. He has a date with destiny. Is there a thought of Collingwood, who must now face death because he must not appear cowardly? Even more importantly, is there a thought of Philadelphia? If there is we are not allowed to see it. No "Take care of my daughter", nothing. It is such a sad thing to watch. That is what makes him an intensely scary character to me. His ride to his death is admirable, but kind of shocking at the same time. He will leave his daughter to strangers again....

 

You talk about the movie being dry, like an exercise in movie making, but I like to think of it as one of Ford's intellectual brain stretchers... like The Searchers or They Were Expendable. I love his ability to take a theme - failure - and expand upon it to get to something human, deep, dark and different from all other movies, even his own other films. In the Searchers, there are reason for Ethan's failures and flaws....and he redeems himself. In They Were Expendable, there were outside forces playing against the heroes. It was more about how they learned to handle that failure in a gallant manner. In Fort Apache, we get a character who only has himself to blame for his own failure. NO adequate redemption.... and Thursday doesn't even give us a parting speech... he won't even allow us to see his soul in the end. No questions....

 

In my reading, I discovered there was a real life counterpoint to Collingwood with almost the same name...he was forgotten by history, while Custer was written up as a hero. I am sure Ford knew this. It is really interesting to me how Ford changed Custer's Last Stand, mythically.... how do we get from *They Died With Their Boots On* to this film?

[HollywoodGolightly]

Lynn,

You and others have made some very good points about the relationship between Collingwood and Thursday. Just wanted to let you know your viewpoints on this are _very_ appreciated, this is probably something I didn't think too much about last time I was watching Fort Apache, but definitely want to pay more attention to next time around.

[MissGoddess]

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, WENDY!!! You've made me stutter with

amazement over your wonderful words and observations on Fort Apache!! Oh

my goodness!! Now I have to watch it AGAIN to search for those aspects of Collingwood

and Thursday....I hope to reply more fully to you and to Lynn---ladies, you are inspiring.

 

Every time...every time I think I've hit bottom on a Ford film, THIS has to happen! Another

well opens up under my feet!

[nlld]

See THIS is what I mean when I said that never in all my reading about Ford have I ever run into the insights presented by the posters on this board. You folks are far above the "film critics". It's like taking a postgraduate degree in Fordology or something!

 

Concerning Ford and O'Brien's friendship: They were very close in the 1920s and early 1930s. Then problems came up during their "tramp steamer" visit to the Far East. They still saw each other (I ran into an article once concerning Ford and his wife, Katharine Hepburn, Victor McLaglen and George and his wife Marguerite Churchill all together on the Araner off Catalina Island in about 1936 (wouldn't you have liked to be a fly on the wall there!) Although Darcy O'Brien didn't realize it when he wrote the article Miss Goddess is planning to read, Ford apparently did want GOB for his photographic unit - but the Navy had other plans. After the war however they apparently did become friends again, as Darcy said - picking up where they left off. After Marguerite left George, Ford would often come over to his house when he (Ford that it) was feeling depressed. Oddly enough, George did not drink, except for the very occasional beer - so he could not be a drinking buddy sort of friend. Dobe Carey said that George was one of the few people who could kid Ford and get away with it.

[FrankGrimes]

Hey, Holly -- There are movies that are worth it. With The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the reviews suggest that it has been brightened up considerably, and possibly

also given a heavy dose of digital noise reduction (DNR). When I see the screenshot

comparisons between the older DVD and the re-issue DVD, I'm really not sure which

one comes closer to what the movie actually looked like in theaters. Maybe Lynn or

someone who has seen it in a theater could have a better idea.

 

Ohhh, I'd get the new DVD JUST for the Peter Bogdanovich commentary if I could buy

whatever I wanted to buy. But I'm trying to get other movies that I don't have on DVD yet.

I still have a pretty long list of DVDs I wish to get before double-dipping.

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Lest We Lynn -- Excellent post! What an enjoyable read you provided for us.

I absolutely loved it.

 

Given his one-track mind it is likely that he rode to glory on the back of men like

Collingwood and lord knows how many screw ups covered by other Captains before

it finally catches up with him.

 

That's a terrific point. I definitely agree with your assessment. I do believe Collingwood

represents the subordinates who carry out orders and receive none of the glory that the

commander does. I really like how Jackie mentions there being a Collingwood during

Custer's "Last Stand." That speaks volumes.

 

Reputation in the military is everything and Thursday was never one to cultivate the

loyalty of his men. He expected it because of who he was, his rank and his station.

(Compare that to Ward Bond's O'Rourke and Wayne's Kirby Yorke and even Sam

Collingwood as well as Nathan Brittles in SWAYR, they all know you earn the respect

of your fellow officers and enlisted men but Thursday never learned that lesson.)

 

That was expertly expressed. Absolutely wonderful! Thursday felt his stripes meant he

was to be automatically respected and his word taken, without question. Just because

you're in power doesn't mean you know what the hell you are doing and understanding of

every situation. There's only so much a book can tell us. Sometimes we must trust those

with greater experience and understanding of the situation at hand. Ford shows us the

end result of blind arrogance.

 

Thursday ends up at this "tenpenny outpost" determined to ride the glory path out

never realizing that the Western frontier calls for waging different way, never realizing

that actually understanding the enemy you are fighting is key to winning.

 

Because where Thursday comes from, men like him know best and they refuse to listen

to those who might be able to help them not be their own worst enemies.

 

Precisely. You are on it, gal.

 

Thursday sent Yorke back expecting Yorke to be the fall guy and Thursday would

win the battle and ride back East on that glory train while Yorke got sent to another

command even more "tenpenny" than Ft. Apache.

 

Yes, I believe Yorke is now Collingwood. You get the idea that Thursday did the same to

Collingwood in the past and Collingwood reacted as Yorke did. History is repeating itself.

 

Fate, however, had different ideas and decided that it was time that Owen Thursday,

like George Minafer years later, got his comeuppance and finally learned the lessons

that were always there but that he had been too prideful, too arrogant, too sure of

himself to listen to.

 

And, yet, he got what he wanted. He was a "hero."

 

Unfortunately, men like Sam Collingwood and O'Rourke were collateral damage.

 

As always.

[rohanaka]

Boy oh boy... I am having way too much fun reading all the great stuff here folks.

 

Ms. Goddess.... Mr Grimes... you two are really going to town here. I am bowled over by all the various levels you folks are bringing out in this ramble. I want to go back and re-read some of your conversation regarding.... POOR (ha.... sorry April) Ranse. ha. But I like how you two have added that extra layer here to discussing this movie.

 

Ms Cutter: Because where Thursday comes from, men like him know best and they refuse to listen to those who might be able to help them not be their own worst enemies.

 

Ms Favell: These scenes are the ones that unlock Owen's mystery for me, because we start to see Thursday through Collingwood's eyes...watch Collingwood's reactions in the background. First to the news that Wayne has been demoted

 

Collingwood is again his victim, but Thursday can't look at him....he knows he is doing the wrong thing.....his pride makes him continue the lie he told long ago...

 

In Fort Apache, we get a character who only has himself to blame for his own failure. NO adequate redemption.... and Thursday doesn't even give us a parting speech... he won't even allow us to see his soul in the end. No questions....

 

WOW.... you ladies have added yet ANOTHER textured layer to this already "way cool" conversation. Terrific thoughts on the whole Thursday/ Collingwood angle.

 

PS... nlld... thanks for the insight YET AGAIN to our beloved George. He is a one of those stars who seems to have fit so well in so many Ford films.... yet for some reason I NEVER made the connection to many of them until your recent posts. And you history behind him and some of the other actors is a nice addition to the whole conversation.

 

 

Great rambling, folks. :-)

[MissGoddess]

I find it really interesting that whenever Fonda is about to do someone wrong, he paces. In this scene, as he replaces Collingwood with Gates as Adjutant, he makes an allusion to laziness and sloppiness - all the while walking directly toward Collingwood. The implication is clear - Collingwood is a lazy cowardly person. Collingwood is again his victim, but Thursday can't look at him....he knows he is doing the wrong thing.....his pride makes him continue the lie he told long ago...

 

This scene also is a nice telegraph of the scene in which Thursday actually makes up his mind that HE will bring in Cochise...and he starts pacing all over the room:

 

What an eye you have, this choreography completely went past me in every viewing. What

an interesting way to show the psychology as well as to subtly point out the opposing

points of view, the concealed knowledge shared between the two men. Marvelous!

 

You talk about the movie being dry, like an exercise in movie making, but I like to think of it as one of Ford's intellectual brain stretchers... like The Searchers or They Were Expendable. I love his ability to take a theme - failure - and expand upon it to get to something human, deep, dark and different from all other movies, even his own other films. In the Searchers, there are reason for Ethan's failures and flaws....and he redeems himself. In They Were Expendable, there were outside forces playing against the heroes. It was more about how they learned to handle that failure in a gallant manner. In Fort Apache, we get a character who only has himself to blame for his own failure. NO adequate redemption.... and Thursday doesn't even give us a parting speech... he won't even allow us to see his soul in the end. No questions....

 

Brilliant, Wendy, Brilliant. Failure, and how men handle it and its repercussion do seem

to crop up frequently in his movies. There are also these myopic characters, or characters that

seem to have a monomania about something that cuts them off from others...sometimes

their focus is noble (Pigeon's "Mr. Gruffydd" in HGWMV; John Carradine's "Casy" in The

Grapes of Wrath), sometimes ignoble (Thursday), more often mixed (Ethan) in each case they

all believe they are right and allow nothing and no one to deflect them from their course.

 

In my reading, I discovered there was a real life counterpoint to Collingwood with almost the same name...he was forgotten by history, while Custer was written up as a hero. I am sure Ford knew this. It is really interesting to me how Ford changed Custer's Last Stand, mythically.... how do we get from They Died With Their Boots On to this film?

 

Goodness, if you feel like it I'd love to know more about that Collingwood counterpart.

Fascinating.

[MissGoddess]

Reputation in the military is everything and Thursday was never one to cultivate the loyalty of his men. He expected it because of who he was, his rank and his station. (Compare that to Ward Bond's O'Rourke and Wayne's Kirby Yorke and even Sam Collingwood as well as Nathan Brittles in SWAYR, they all know you earn the respect of your fellow officers and enlisted men but Thursday never learned that lesson.)

 

Hi Lynn---you perfectly summed up the two differentn approaches to leadership that we

still find in all areas of society today, not just the military. The "Collingwoods" and "Kirbys"

go unsung or their good works are kicked over the traces by the "Thursdays"...and the

"Stoddards". Sad indeed.

[lzcutter]

I can't remember who raised the issue and my current internet connection makes it difficult to go back but here's my latest question:

 

Which came first - Collingwood's drinking problem or Collingwood's "demotion" to "tenpenny" places like Fort Apache? I think, based on my last viewing of the film (some time back), that the demotion came before the drinking.

 

I can't watch my DVD for confirmation and cannot remember if that question is broached in the movie as I'm mid century modern and can barely remember what I did last week.

 

I look forward, to as always, my troops making me proud.

 

Lest We L...

[MissGoddess]

Hi Lynn! You know the whole thing with Collingwood's drinking is something I never paid attention to before, I never got the sense he was an alcoholic or anything like that---the other boy-o's were so cheerfully drinking all the time that I don't think I noticed references to Collingwood's imbibing.

 

I really need to watch it again. I have the feeling Wendy may have the answer for you.

[FrankGrimes]

Which came first - Collingwood's drinking problem or Collingwood's "demotion" to

"tenpenny" places like Fort Apache? I think, based on my last viewing of the film

(some time back), that the demotion came before the drinking.

 

I was the under the same impression until you raised this question. Now I believe

different. I just cannot force myself to agree with you!

 

 

 

 

 

I believe Thursday's offering Collingwood an early drink shows us he's fully aware of what

he has known to be one of Collingwood's greatest weaknesses. I also think this ties in

with what Jackie wrote about Thursday looking to get at Collingwood. He's trying to grab

him by the... He's looking to show he has power over and control of Collingwood. But

Collingwood STANDS UP to Thursday, rejecting his attempt to control him by turning down

the drink, pushing aside his weakness. By doing so, Collingwood gains the upper-hand.

 

I think it's also very telling that Thursday grabs just one glass. He's not looking to share

a drink with Sam, he's looking to take control of him.

 

Also, I believe Collingwood is much like the rest of the men at Fort Apache. He

knows how to unwind, relax, be one of the boys. This is something Thursday not only

doesn't know how to do, it's something he looks down upon. I think this ties in with

the talk of pedrigree that has been raised. Collingwood, and men like him, are BENEATH

Thursday. Not only in command, but also in blood.

 

I hope to reply to the brilliant post by Jackie later tonight. What you wrote was tremendous,

Ford Floozy.

 

Happy Mother's Day! Poor Bronxie's mom has to deal with B. Talk about a horror story.

And then there's the Spring Gobbler's mom. Hopefully someone takes her out to eat so

they know what real food tastes like. And then there's Alice in Left-to-Wonderland's mom.

Are all moms really this bad?

[Bronxgirl48]

Did you have your beans and hay for dinner, Grimes?

 

By thunder, I wish you'd ride to....

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=Bronxgirl48 wrote:}{quote}

> Did you have your beans and hay for dinner, Grimes?

>

> By thunder, I wish you'd ride to....

 

Is that what we're serving for his last meal before Kathy gets the rope?

[Bronxgirl48]

Ha, yes! It's what I rememberr Fonda saying was the bill of fare for the soldiers, and so it's certainly good enough for FG before he meets his doom.