Western Movie Rambles

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=Bronxgirl48 wrote:}{quote}

> Ha, yes! It's what I rememberr Fonda saying was the bill of fare for the soldiers, and so it's certainly good enough for FG before he meets his doom.

 

I think that's what he eats everyday anyway.

[rohanaka]

No...that would be sawdust... and he likes it.

[Bronxgirl48]

>

> I think that's what he eats everyday.

 

Although the beans might be a little more fiber than he's used to.

 

Message was edited by: Bronxgirl48

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Jackie Ford! -- I just wanted to reiterate how much I loved your recent post on

Fort Apache. You brought forth many ideas that I had not thought of. Thank you.

 

I had thought that Collingwood was an easy mark for Thursday because of his drinking problem, that Thursday had purposefully scapegoated him because of it.... but now I wonder

if Thursday was the cause of Collingwood's problem. Of course, it's possible that

Collingwood did NOT have a drinking problem at all, and that Thursday simply said

he did at the time their friendship ended. Is that is what got Collingwood busted and sent

to Fort Apache? Or did he disobey a direct order, and Thursday called him a coward? Or

could it have been both?

 

I'm of the belief that Fort Apache is where those without glory end up and this is why

Collingwood is here. It's a slap in the face that Thursday has been sent there. Fort Apache

is beneath him.

 

I don't think Thursday ever expected to see Collingwood again, so this is another cross

he has to bear (in his mind), and another reason for his coldness. It must be unbearable

for Thursday to be confronted with a reminder of his past glory, that he should have sunk

as low as Sam. It also is probably galling to see someone again who you have done dirt to.

 

That's a terrific point. I think Thursday's seeing Collingwood makes him feel very

uncomfortable. He knows Collingwood knows him and now they are in the same "place."

 

Collingwood is the key to the meaning of the movie for me. He is the key to Thursday's

past, his soul, everything. I absolutely love the things that happen IN BETWEEN the

words of this conversation.... especially in between "There's nothing to explain".. and

"No. Nothing." Thursday does not want to hear it. But the way Collingwood speaks his

line has immense implications. He has nothing to be ashamed of.

 

That is brilliant. My favorite moments in the first half of Fort Apache are the ones

between Thursday and Collingwood. You can feel the tension there and you showed this

perfectly with your screencaps.

 

I find it really interesting that whenever Fonda is about to do someone wrong, he

paces. In this scene, as he replaces Collingwood with Gates as Adjutant, he makes

an allusion to laziness and sloppiness - all the while walking directly toward Collingwood.

The implication is clear - Collingwood is a lazy cowardly person. Collingwood is again

his victim, but Thursday can't look at him....he knows he is doing the wrong thing.....his

pride makes him continue the lie he told long ago.

 

Phenomenal! I did not notice that after my initial viewing. That's a great catch. I did notice

Thursday's not being able to look Collingwood in the eye at certain critical points.

 

This scene also is a nice telegraph of the scene in which Thursday actually makes up

his mind that HE will bring in Cochise...and he starts pacing all over the room:

 

Yet another great grab by you. So do you think his pacing is a sign of guilt or nervousness?

 

I stated in an earlier post that I think Owen is dead or maybe hollow inside. What made

him like that, I don't know. Again, I see a parallel to Ethan. I LOVE what you said about

Ford's twist - that most of his men carry their dead wives with them....talking to their

portraits, or visiting their grave, but not Owen. He has put that away somewhere...He

is still so angry I don't think he could bear to look. Maybe he is mad at his wife for

leaving him. He is not an introspective type, I don't think he would like what he

sees...were he to look closely into his motivations... he seems like he has to run

from himself a bit. To put things out of his mind. The obsession fills those ugly

spots that he cannot bear to look at.

 

I really love what you wrote here. I agree with you, I think Thursday is running from

himself and is trying to squash all the negative feelings that he has inside of him. I believe

he feels a weak man has feelings and he doesn't wish to be a weak man. It's all about

APPEARANCES with him. Men need to wear a proper "uniform."

 

You talk about the movie being dry, like an exercise in movie making, but I like to think

of it as one of Ford's intellectual brain stretchers... like The Searchers or They Were

Expendable. I love his ability to take a theme - failure - and expand upon it to get to

something human, deep, dark and different from all other movies, even his own other films. In

the Searchers, there are reason for Ethan's failures and flaws....and he redeems himself. In

They Were Expendable, there were outside forces playing against the heroes. It was more

about how they learned to handle that failure in a gallant manner. In Fort Apache, we get a

character who only has himself to blame for his own failure. NO adequate redemption.... and

Thursday doesn't even give us a parting speech... he won't even allow us to see his soul in

the end. No questions.

 

Damn, you are good. That was tremendous, and I do agree with you about it all.

 

The reason why I felt Fort Apache to be dry in the first part fo the film is because I wasn't

into the regular fort life stuff. It didn't capture my interest. What DID capture my interest

was Henry Fonda's "Thursday." He held my interest, at all times. But the courting, the

dancing, and the tomfoolery didn't do much for me. I feared the film was going to be nothing

but this. Then I saw the ending. Wow! That COMPLETELY saved the film for me.

 

Rio Grande held my interest throughout, mainly because of its emotional impact with

me. Maureen O'Hara captivated me and then you throw in the rebuilding of a marriage and

the pride of a father with a good ending and a memorable final shot and I'm hooked.

 

And Lest We Lynn is going to kill me for this, but She Wore a Yellow Ribbon bored

me. It's currently my least favorite Ford film. I don't understand the appeal, so I guess I

should let others fill me in as to why it's a favorite with them. The only moments in the film

that connected with me were when Nathan was spending time with his wife.

[MissGoddess]

And Lest We Lynn is going to kill me for this, but She Wore a Yellow Ribbon bored

me. It's currently my least favorite Ford film. I don't understand the appeal, so I guess I

should let others fill me in as to why it's a favorite with them. The only moments in the film

that connected with me were when Nathan was spending time with his wife.

 

Kathy, I think Lynn is going to need that rope...

[JackFavell]

Hey! I juss came home fwom the dentisss..... a double woot canal..... I will twy to wamble, but I am having twouble enunciadingg becausse of da novacaide......ha ha ha....

 

Actually, I have been busy with mother's day, then a school field trip. Today we had the visit to the dentist which led to the dreaded root canal, which is not bad at all, pain-wise. It's just really quite scary.

 

Speaking of _mother's day_ , all I have to say is, *Frank*, you are so lucky you wrote that last post, because otherwise, you would have been eating dirt right about now... You are really gonna get it, you should NEVER EVER make fun of a mom... we are like tigers...especially when there is a fresh guy around....

 

Thank ALL you guys for your extremely kind comments about my ramble - I almost didn't post at all about Fort Apache because I thought what I wrote didn't make any sense. I just really love this movie. For me, my love started with the way it looks. It is that starkly gorgeous black and white cinematography that just grabs me and won't let go. I had to watch that arid landscape and the people inhabiting it. Archie Stout and William Clothier were geniuses. I read that they used a red filter to get the stark white clouds to stand out on the blue blue sky.... Go figure. I can't imagine how that works, or how they even thought of it.

 

*nlld* -

 

I am so glad you posted here! It is great to know about George O'Brien's background, because I think there is a temptation to think that everyone who worked with Ford was automatically a drinker. I do believe that "the drink" was a cause of friction between Ford and many of his friends and co-workers, though not the only one.

 

*Frank* and *Lynn* -

h6. >Thursday ends up at this "tenpenny outpost" determined to ride the glory path out never realizing that the Western frontier calls for waging different way, never realizing that actually understanding the enemy you are fighting is key to winning.

h6. >Because where Thursday comes from, men like him know best and they refuse to listen to those who might be able to help them not be their own worst enemies.

h6. >Precisely. You are on it, gal.

h6. >Thursday sent Yorke back expecting Yorke to be the fall guy and Thursday would win the battle and ride back East on that glory train while Yorke got sent to another command even more "tenpenny" than Ft. Apache.

h6. >Yes, I believe Yorke is now Collingwood. You get the idea that Thursday did the same to Collingwood in the past and Collingwood reacted as Yorke did. History is repeating itself.

This exchange between you and Lynn was really great! I never quite realized the parallels here. The movie is full of parallels, and alignments... I find it really interesting that toward the end of the film we see exactly who is aligned with who:

 

 

We also see which men have the positions of power in the film.

 

*Kathy* -

h6. >PS... nlld... thanks for the insight YET AGAIN to our beloved George. He is a one of those stars who seems to have fit so well in so many Ford films.... yet for some reason I NEVER made the connection to many of them until your recent posts. And you history behind him and some of the other actors is a nice addition to the whole conversation.

I never noticed Goerge O'Brien before in his later roles as a member of the "stock company". In fact, I almost thought he was a different actor than the young, beautiful O'Brien from The Iron Horse and Sunrise. But in this film, Ford really gives him a the chance to shine. He gives him the most beautiful send off of any of the characters, and he is really the hero of the film, stronger in some ways than Wayne or Fonda. I hope you can see the elegant wave of his hat, and the courtly bow he makes on his way into a battle that cannot be won:

 

[JackFavell]

*MissG* -

 

>What an eye you have, this choreography completely went past me in every viewing. What an interesting way to show the psychology as well as to subtly point out the opposing points of view, the concealed knowledge shared between the two men.

 

This section has always just jumped off the screen for me. The way Fonda turns his back on the camera and walks toward O'Brien just blows me away every time. The first time watching it I was really surprised at it, because it was such an oddball move - it really stuck out. But then I realized that Thursday is always making these odd "manouevers".

 

>There are also these myopic characters, or characters that seem to have a monomania about something that cuts them off from others...sometimes their focus is noble (Pigeon's "Mr. Gruffydd" in HGWMV; John Carradine's "Casy" in The Grapes of Wrath), sometimes ignoble (Thursday), more often mixed (Ethan) in each case they all believe they are right and allow nothing and no one to deflect them from their course.

 

Now , THAT is some brilliant observation. I can totally see this comparison and because of your writing ability, I can even translate it to a couple of other (Ranse is one) characters in other Ford films.

 

>Goodness, if you feel like it I'd love to know more about that Collingwood counterpart. Fascinating.

 

I was completely wrong. I am still quite sure Ford knew the story, being the voracious reader he was, and also being a student of military history. Collingwood was actually with Lord Nelson at the battle of Trafalgar. He was second in command, and when Nelson was wounded and killed, he actually took over for the fallen commander. Here is a description of him:

 

Trafalgar's Lost Hero tells the thrilling life story of one of the greatest unsung heroes of all time. Overshadowed by the flamboyance and self-promotion of his closest friend and onetime romantic rival Nelson, Cuthbert Collingwood was a paragon of modesty whose audacious bravery surfaced only in the face of the enemy. It's no accident that many of his adventures seem to spring from the pages of a Patrick O'Brian novel; Collingwood was one of the models for O'Brian's hero, Jack Aubrey.

 

Collingwood emerges as a wily and daring commander who was at his steely-eyed best when outgunned by the enemy. His coolness under fire is revealed in lively accounts of his rescuing Nelson from destruction and the entrapment of a 26-ship enemy fleet with a tiny, four-vessel squadron. At Trafalgar, he was seen calmly munching an apple as he led his squadron, guns blazing, into furious battle. It was Collingwood, himself devastated by the loss, who delivered the news of Nelson's death to a nation stunned by the tragic price of victory.

 

As accomplished as Collingwood was in the art of war, it was his personal skills that set him apart from his contemporaries. Bitterly opposed to flogging, he commanded the most highly disciplined crews in the Royal Navy. His evenhandedness and shrewd understanding of human nature were indispensable assets....

[JackFavell]

Sorry for hogging the thread here, but I wanted to talk about Lynn's chicken or egg question of Collingwood's drinking. I also wanted to respond to Frank's second post....but I am too tired to do it tonight and I'm quite sure you all need a break from my chatter! Anyway, I will get to those questions at another time, maybe tomorrow. Nighty-night.

[FrankGrimes]

Speaking of mother's day , all I have to say is, Frank, you are so lucky you wrote that

last post, because otherwise, you would have been eating dirt right about now... You are

really gonna get it, you should NEVER EVER make fun of a mom... we are like

tigers...especially when there is a fresh guy around.

 

"Fresh guy"? Now that is uncalled for! I don't think Cowboy Chris is being fresh. I believe

he is a gentleman. You women.

 

Happy trails, Jackie. I hope Quo gives you back your teeth in the morning.

[JackFavell]

>I don't think Cowboy Chris is being fresh. I believe he is a gentleman. You women.

 

>Happy trails, Jackie. I hope Quo gives you back your teeth in the morning.

 

Why you little.... DOH!

 

[FrankGrimes]

 

[JackFavell]

[FrankGrimes]

You're supposed to be in bed, Gummy.

 

I absolutely loved your "parallel" caps. Awesome! You have been putting on a western show,

Little Lady. Not bad for a gal who is relatively new to the western.

[JackFavell]

Aw, shucks, mister. Just call me Gabby....

 

I am really enjoying westerns lately. Except for the awful She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.....

[FrankGrimes]

Aw, shucks, mister. Just call me Gabby....

 

 

I am really enjoying westerns lately.

 

I'm impressed. Did you ever watch Gunsmoke? My appreciation for western stories

really went up because of that show.

 

Except for the awful She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.....

 

Uh-oh! Lynn! You need to whip two people in shape here.

 

I saw that you were also a big fan of The Wild Bunch, too.

[JackFavell]

Wha???? Did I write about TWB here? Have you been traveling, Mister Grey?

[rohanaka]

Wow... you folks have all put me to shame w/ this ramble.

 

The way you all have dug in deep and found all these interesting "extras" has just been terrific.

 

Just a few thoughts....

 

Ms. Cutter said: Thursday ends up at this "tenpenny outpost" determined to ride the glory path out never realizing that the Western frontier calls for waging different way, never realizing that actually understanding the enemy you are fighting is key to winning. Because where Thursday comes from, men like him know best and they refuse to listen to those who might be able to help them not be their own worst enemies.

 

I think for him he was about proving his glory. In his mind.... he was already "glorious". He was bound and determined that EVERYONE else was going to see him that way too. And it REALLY galled him that he had to "prove" it. I think he expected everyone else to just automatically "get" that he was as wonderful as he thought he was... and when that did not happen... he'd jump in with a dig or a cutting remark... or a command that called attention to his "superior" leadership abilities. If people weren't going to GIVE him the glory he thought he deserved.... he was going to claim it for himself.

 

And you are right.. he was absolutely clueless about the different environment he was now in calling for different "rules" of engagement. Part of the "glory" he felt was his due that ALL rules were his for the choosing and that it was EVERYONE else who had to adapt to his way of thinking.... even the Indians.

 

Jackie said: It must be unbearablefor Thursday to be confronted with a reminder of his past glory, that he should have sunk as low as Sam. It also is probably galling to see someone again who you have done dirt to.

 

Frank Grimes said: That's a terrific point. I think Thursday's seeing Collingwood makes him feel very uncomfortable. He knows Collingwood knows him and now they are in the same "place."

 

And I think for the reasons you both bring up... this is why he goes so "out of his way" to PUT him in his place". He makes it clear from the get go (with all of them really... but in a particularly cold way to Collingwood) that he is over them all but also "ABOVE them all" as well.

 

And Lest We Lynn is going to kill me for this, but She Wore a Yellow Ribbon bored me

 

I have to confess that among the three cavalry films it is my 3rd favorite... but it is a lot better movie thanyou may be giving it credit for... There are some VERY emotional moments in this story and there are some really good characters too... I think you are just being..... ornery.

 

Miss G says: Thursday was the one who was impacted the most by his wife's passing, maybe

subconsciously. He's not a reflective man so I don't see him mourning her consciously,

but she was his "softer" side I bet, I think. Philadelphia doesn't act like she remembers

her mother as clearly. I get the feeling she'd been dead a while. Do you or anyone else

remember better?

 

I think you are right about him being the most "impacted". He likely lost his biggest "fan" (outside of himself....ha) She was likely a woman who hung on his every word and perfectly "adorned" his arm.

 

And if you notice.... I think Philadelphia had finally reached the age where she was finally able to fill her mothers shoes in that regard.... but I also think she was raised in a "boarding school" setting or by some other family member so perhaps she wasn't as "blind" to her father's flaws as she might have been if her mother had been there to raise her that way.

 

At any rate, I feel like or just imagine that Philadelphia has had the "looking after" of her

father for a while. She seems to know exactly how he'd want things done and arranged.

 

Now see, I got a different take on that.... I think somewhere (maybe in the stagecoach) mention is made of how she'd been away from him (or he from her) for a while. And I think her wanting to make everything "perfect" for him in his new home was her first big chance to play "grownup". If you notice... she did not know the etiquette about the officers coming to leave their cards, etc... she was just starting to learn what it means to "keep house" for a man. That was my take on it anyway.... And this might account for some of the reason she was so "independent" in her thinking when her father goes to the ORourke house and tries to bully everyone around. Again.. I might be off... but this is the impression I got...

 

Kathy, I think Lynn is going to need that rope...

 

There is a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG line of people who are going to be borrowing it I am afraid.

 

THE GREY GUY Says: And then there's the Spring Gobbler's mom. Hopefully someone takes her out to eat so they know what real food tastes like.

 

HA!!!!!

;

Take THAT!!!!!

 

"Fresh guy"?

 

Jackie.. if it is the GREY GUY ... we are fresh out of FRESH.... because he is just plain ROTTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

PS... little Miss Favell.... a DOUBLE root canal.... you poor thing!!

 

Just for you:

 

Except for the awful She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.....

 

Oh no... say it isn't so! Step away from the Grey... don't tell me he is starting to infect your brain????? Perish the thought.

[FrankGrimes]

Wha???? Did I write about TWB here? Have you been traveling, Mister Grey?

 

I was directed your way by a little birdy.

 

[JackFavell]

Oh, golly girl. Thanks for the pudding! It's such a nice comfort food.... however, I am not feeling bad at all. Tomorrow mornin I will probably be in agony. Not from the tooth, though. I can't believe I am still up!

 

I think you are right about him being the most "impacted". He likely lost his biggest "fan" (outside of himself....ha) She was likely a woman who hung on his every word and perfectly "adorned" his arm.

 

I completely agree.

 

And if you notice.... I think Philadelphia had finally reached the age where she was finally able to fill her mothers shoes in that regard.... but I also think she was raised in a "boarding school" setting or by some other family member so perhaps she wasn't as "blind" to her father's flaws as she might have been if her mother had been there to raise her that way.

 

I agree with what you said here about Philadelphia, too - I don't remember a scene on the stagecoach, but you are dead on about how she doesn't know protocol - which she would if she had been with that old stickler-for-the-rules for long. I think he just picked her up from school. She battles him with good nature, which is just perfect. I really like Shirley Temple in this movie. She is a weaker actress than any of the others, but somehow it works for her character. And she has charm.

 

Except for the awful She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.....

 

Oh no... say it isn't so! Step away from the Grey... don't tell me he is starting to infect your brain????? Perish the thought.

 

I was just joshing. Sort of. That one had me stymied for a while. Just as Frank had a hard time with the goofy antics and the attention to the soldier's everyday life in Fort Apache, I could not get past this in SWAYR for a while. But it does have Ben Johnson

 

(shameless posting of Ben Johnson picture)

 

Oh, Lordy, he's a doll, isn't he? And he can gentle a horse. What does Bronxie always say? He's a gorgeous hunk of man, a tall drink of water, a looker, a babe.

 

OH WAIT! This isn't the torture thread is it?

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Quiet Gal -- I think for him he was about proving his glory. In his mind.... he

was already "glorious". He was bound and determined that EVERYONE else was going

to see him that way too. And it REALLY galled him that he had to "prove" it. I think he

expected everyone else to just automatically "get" that he was as wonderful as he

thought he was... and when that did not happen... he'd jump in with a dig or a cutting

remark... or a command that called attention to his "superior" leadership abilities. If

people weren't going to GIVE him the glory he thought he deserved.... he was going

to claim it for himself.

 

I agree with you. And at the start of the film, the private citizens don't give a hoot about

who he is, so he has no power over them and he HATES this feeling.

 

 

And you are right.. he was absolutely clueless about the different environment he was

now in calling for different "rules" of engagement. Part of the "glory" he felt was his due

that ALL rules were his for the choosing and that it was EVERYONE else who had to

adapt to his way of thinking.... even the Indians.

 

That's superb. I especially liked your "even the Indians." That's precisely it. How dare

anyone go against the great Thursday.

 

I have to confess that among the three cavalry films it is my 3rd favorite... but it is a lot

better movie thanyou may be giving it credit for... There are some VERY emotional

moments in this story and there are some really good characters too... I think you are just being..... ornery.

 

What are the emotional moments for you in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon? Who are the

good characters? My favorite characters in the film are the same as Jackie's: the Allshards.

And John Wayne's "Nathan Brittles" is terrific, too. But I'm actually far more interested in

Thursday than Nathan.

 

Now see, I got a different take on that.... I think somewhere (maybe in the stagecoach)

mention is made of how she'd been away from him (or he from her) for a while.

 

He was in Europe and his comment about that was "better there than here." Evidently,

Philadelphia was with her mother, family, or at a boarding house, most likely in Boston,

since that is where her bonnet comes from.

 

And I think her wanting to make everything "perfect" for him in his new home was her

first big chance to play "grownup". If you notice... she did not know the etiquette about

the officers coming to leave their cards, etc... she was just starting to learn what it

means to "keep house" for a man. That was my take on it anyway.... And this might

account for some of the reason she was so "independent" in her thinking when her

father goes to the ORourke house and tries to bully everyone around. Again.. I might

be off... but this is the impression I got.

 

I'm with you on all of that. Now you're worried, aren't you? I think Philadelphia is wanting to

please her father while also looking to prove herself as a woman who can "keep house," as

you say.

 

Jackie.. if it is the GREY GUY ... we are fresh out of FRESH.... because he is just plain ROTTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Who told?!

 

 

 

Anyone else like this little homage?:

 

 

 

[JackFavell]

TWB is growing on me..... like mold. I watched the bonus material the other day. Now I am very curious about some of the other Peckinpah movies....

(More shameless posting.... yadda yadda yadda.....)

[FrankGrimes]

TWB is growing on me..... like mold. I watched the bonus material the other day. Now

I am very curious about some of the other Peckinpah movies.

 

Watch Straw Dogs, see how that one sits with you. Love The Getaway.

 

[lzcutter]

*I never noticed Goerge O'Brien before in his later roles as a member of the "stock company". In fact, I almost thought he was a different actor than the young, beautiful O'Brien from The Iron Horse and Sunrise. But in this film, Ford really gives him a the chance to shine.*

 

I may be wrong but I think *Fort Apache* is the first time that Ford and O'Brien worked together following their very big falling-out in the early 1930s.

[JackFavell]

Straw Dogs? NOT for a while, thank you. I tried to watch that once before and the suspense was unbearable... I had to quit watching after about 5 minutes.

 

The Getaway's cool, and I remember liking Pat Garrett a lot, in my Bob Dylan phase.....

 

I am interested in The Ballad of Cable Hogue, and Junior Bonner.

 

Did you know Junior Bonner has ....... Ben Johnson in it?

 

 

And now I have to go to sleep. I am soo sleepy....plus I have to get up at least by seven to get my kid off to school. See ya in the morning.

[JackFavell]

>I never noticed Goerge O'Brien before in his later roles as a member of the "stock company". In fact, I almost thought he was a different actor than the young, beautiful O'Brien from The Iron Horse and Sunrise. But in this film, Ford really gives him a the chance to shine.

 

>I may be wrong but I think Fort Apache is the first time that Ford and O'Brien worked together following their very big falling-out in the early 1930s.

 

Well that explains a lot....

 

Good luck with Lynn, Frankie.... you got some explaining to do....