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24 minutes ago, SunAndMoon said:

The ironic thing is that I'm pretty sure Errol and Tyrone, two action stars, would be considered effeminate by today's standards.

That's not a bad thing. It just amuses me.

Flynn considered effeminate by today's standards?

Why? Because he didn't have bulging pectoral muscles and hardened abs like some of the gymnasium workout actors today?

I don't think so.

Flynn in action had the unique ability to appear elegant, as well as manly. I can't think of too many other stars who could do that.

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Glad to see a mention of 'Abandon Ship' which is one of the most powerful studio-era dramas I've ever enjoyed. My favorite Power movie for sure. He's on fire in this. It may even be my favorite 'sea' movie of all time. Well, at least of that era. Better than Hitchcock's 'Lifeboat' for sure.

What about 'The Razor's Edge' for Power? No discussion warranted?

p.s.

Quote

He looks like a woman in Captain Blood. Or at least a young Leonardo DiCaprio.

Flynn had long hair in that pic, that's all. Ugh, Leo Duh-Caprio ...looks like an actual hog you might find in a barnyard. View pics of him taken at any beach while vacationing. He's flabby.

Flynn possessed that well-known Australian toughness.

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1 hour ago, SunAndMoon said:

The Razor's Edge made me cry. I had no clue he could act like that.

The Razor's Edge is on my list as one of my 10 favorite films. Abandon Ship was a great film and Tyrone was wonderful in it. You need to see Nightmare Alley, it's one of his finest performances and Witness For the Prosecution ain't bad either LOL. If you want to see Tyrone in another fine performance, only this time with humor, watch the Mark of Zorro. He was a master swordsman. Basil Rathbone known to be the best swordsman in Hollywood, raved about Tyrone's ability with a sword.The Long Grey Line is another teriffic performance. He convincingly goes from a young man, to an elderly man.

The Eddy Duchin Story also shows us how great and dedicated Tyrone was to his craft. He learned to play the piano for that film. Although he was dubbed, all the finger movements are his and that's no small feat, considering the quickness of hand needed to play Eddy Duchin's music. I love Tyrone Power, always have, he was a gorgeous, talented actor and always a pleasure to watch.

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4 hours ago, lavenderblue19 said:

If you want to see Tyrone in another fine performance, only this time with humor, watch the Mark of Zorro.

That's actually the first movie I ever saw him in, and one of my favorite movies in general.

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7 hours ago, lavenderblue19 said:

 If you want to see Tyrone in another fine performance, only this time with humor, watch the Mark of Zorro. He was a master swordsman. Basil Rathbone known to be the best swordsman in Hollywood, raved about Tyrone's ability with a sword.

 

I always wondered about this statement by Rathbone. Actually what he said was that Power could have dueled Errol Flynn into a cocked hat.

First of all, I do think that Power is extraordinarily effective in the Zorro duel with Rathbone. However he is doubled in a few key shots in the duel (by Albert Cavens), such as the finale in which he plunges his sword into Basil who is backed up to a wall. Notice that you never see Power's face in that shot.

The other thing is that in Power's other screen swashbucklers (Black Swan, Captain from Castile, Prince of Foxes) he really doesn't make nearly the same impression as a fencer (at least, not on me). Certainly nobody talks about his duels in those films, like the way they do the Zorro duel.

Flynn, on the other hand, aside from his Robin Hood duel with Rathbone, looks pretty good to my eye with some of his fencing in both The Sea Hawk and Don Juan. I think it's safe to say that until he ruined his health Flynn was more athletic than Power (for a while, certainly the late '30s, he was regarded as one of Hollywood's top tennis players).

Power was, by any accounts that I've read about him, a very nice guy, very popular within the Hollywood community, while Flynn could be a bit of a Jekyll/Hyde personality and made some enemies.

Flynn had a reputation as a great screen swashbuckler to the general public while Rathbone knew the truth that he could have bested him with a sword anytime. Rathbone's skill probably helped to make Flynn look better in the Robin Hood duel. I have sometimes wondered if Rathbone felt a little resentment over Errol getting so much credit in the public's eye, moreso than either he ( a superior fencer) or Power.

Therefore, and this is just a theory on my part, I have sometimes wondered if Rathbone's statement about Power being a superior fencer to Flynn wasn't based to a degree upon the fact that he liked Power more as a person and he was a bit envious of Flynn's reputation with a blade.

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Tom, I think we've been around this block before. Aside from the dueling, Tyrone I think had a bigger range as an actor. Watch his performance in Nightmare Alley, he was superb. Nothing you say can change my mind about Power and I'm sure the same is true about how you feel about Errol. I doubt that was the reason Basil made the statement about Power and Flynn's dueling abilities. Basil was well respected and known to be a great at fencing.While it's true Tyrone was very well liked by fellow actors and Errol's reputation was not the best, Tyrone could stand on his acting abilities without his fine reputation of being a nice guy being a factor.

Don't get me wrong, I think Errol was talented and very handsome and fun to watch but my heart belongs to Tyrone. Alice Faye said when Tyrone kissed her, she thought she died and went to heaven. I think I'd feel the same :D

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9 hours ago, TomJH said:

Flynn considered effeminate by today's standards?

Why? Because he didn't have bulging pectoral muscles and hardened abs like some of the gymnasium workout actors today?

I don't think so.

Flynn in action had the unique ability to appear elegant, as well as manly. I can't think of too many other stars who could do that.

 

Tom, I think your very use of the word "elegant" in the above is pretty much why SunAndMoon made the comment that they did about Errol and Tyrone.

(...you see, somehow it seems the general culture since the time Errol and Tyrone were making pictures has hardened to the point that being "elegant" is now considered "effete", and yes, almost in a way "effeminate" now days, unfortunately)

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Its not a bad theory at all to suggest that personal pique might have been behind Rathbone's sneering comment about respective dueling ability. I like it.

I think its wise as well, to be aware of how easy it is to misattribute quips this far removed from the fray. I'd rather see a firm source for anything Rathbone stated, rather than vague recollection.

Indeed, since Rathbone's prowess is so well-known its almost become a tool in the hands of any heckler to say "Rathbone said such-and-such about his fencing ability you know".

I can even do it myself: see, "I happen to recall Rathbone praising the skill of Danny Kaye". It's terrible!

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35 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

Tom, I think we've been around this block before. Aside from the dueling, Tyrone I think had a bigger range as an actor. Watch his performance in Nightmare Alley, he was superb. Nothing you say can change my mind about Power and I'm sure the same is true about how you feel about Errol. I doubt that was the reason Basil made the statement about Power and Flynn's dueling abilities. Basil was well respected and known to be a great at fencing.While it's true Tyrone was very well liked by fellow actors and Errol's reputation was not the best, Tyrone could stand on his acting abilities without his fine reputation of being a nice guy being a factor.

Don't get me wrong, I think Errol was talented and very handsome and fun to watch but my heart belongs to Tyrone. Alice Faye said when Tyrone kissed her, she thought she died and went to heaven. I think I'd feel the same :D

Power did show a considerable range as an actor on those few occasions when he was allowed to demonstrate it, with his performances in Nightmare Alley, in particular, and Abandon Ship incredibly strong.

I wasn't trying to change your mind about Power. Since you're a huge fan of the man, anyway, how could I? My comment about Rathbone's statement was, as I stated, a theory, nothing more.

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10 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Tom, I think your very use of the word "elegant" in the above is pretty much why SunAndMoon made the comment that they did about Errol and Tyrone.

(...you see, somehow it seems the general culture since the time Errol and Tyrone were making pictures has hardened to the point that being "elegant" is now considered "effete", and yes, almost in a way "effeminate" now days, unfortunately)

Yeh, I understand that the use of the word "elegant" in a description of a man may have negative connotations to some. I could use that same word to describe Cary Grant, as well as Flynn (at least when Errol was in his prime).

But, for me and I suspect a lot of others,  that elegance in speech and manner and physical prowess was not a compromise on Flynn's screen masculinity, and that makes him pretty unique for an actor largely associated with action films, don't you think?

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14 minutes ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

Its not a bad theory at all to suggest that personal pique might have been behind Rathbone's sneering comment about respective dueling ability. I like it.

I think its wise as well, to be aware of how easy it is to misattribute quips this far removed from the fray. I'd rather see a firm source for anything Rathbone stated, rather than vague recollection.

Indeed, since Rathbone's prowess is so well-known its almost become a tool in the hands of any heckler to say "Rathbone said such-and-such about his fencing ability you know".

I can even do it myself: see, "I happen to recall Rathbone praising the skill of Danny Kaye". It's terrible!

If that comment about a vague recollection was aimed at my post I think it was basically confirmed by Tom writing " Power being a superior fencer to Flynn" said by Rathbone. As Tom stated Rathbone's motives in making that statement is a theory, nothing more. Since none of us were there, we can only go by the statement Rathbone made about Power's fencing ability and not speculate.

One the one hand you object to paraphrasing a statement, but you're OK with theories as to why someone said such and such?

 

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7 minutes ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

Its not a bad theory at all to suggest that personal pique might have been behind Rathbone's sneering comment about respective dueling ability. I like it.

I think its wise as well, to be aware of how easy it is to misattribute quips this far removed from the fray. I'd rather see a firm source for anything Rathbone stated, rather than vague recollection.

Indeed, since Rathbone's prowess is so well-known its almost become a tool in the hands of any heckler to say "Rathbone said such-and-such about his fencing ability you know".

I can even do it myself: see, "I happen to recall Rathbone praising the skill of Danny Kaye". It's terrible!

Actually you're right, Sarge. Rathbone had great admiration for Danny Kaye's fencing ability in The Court Jester (he was an incredibly quick study), as stated in his autobiography In and Out Of Character.

Regarding Rathbone's comment on Power's fencing being superior to Flynn's: under what circumstances, I wonder, did he make that statement? Was it a flippant comment made one day when he was in a bit of an obstinate, surly mood in the presence of a journalist? Who knows?

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3 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

If that comment about a vague recollection was aimed at my post I think it was basically confirmed by Tom writing " Power being a superior fencer to Flynn" said by Rathbone. As Tom stated Rathbone's motives in making that statement is a theory, nothing more. Since none of us were there, we can only go by the statement Rathbone made about Power's fencing ability and not speculate.

Ah, but, you see, Lav, I find I have to speculate because I find it difficult not to question the assessment made by Rathbone. Therefore if, by chance, Basil wasn't being completely honest when he made that statement (he was a human being like the rest of us, I assume, who had up and down moods on different days) what might be his reasons for doing so?

But it is speculation, in the final analysis, no more. It's up to others to decide if they think it may have some credibility or not.

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Why are you questioning a statement that Rathbone made about Power? Maybe he made the statement because that's what he (Rathbone believed) and nothing more than that. Oh well, maybe you and this Sgt. have the ability to go back in time and read Rathbone's mind LOL. Tom, you and I have been friends for a long time and other than this disagreement we have always agreed 100%, this time however, sorry buddy, I have to disagree with your thinking

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3 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

Why are you questioning a statement that Rathbone made about Power? Maybe he made the statement because that's what he (Rathbone believed) and nothing more than that. Oh well, maybe you and this Sgt. have the ability to go back in time and read Rathbone's mind LOL. Tom, you and I have been friends for a long time and other than this disagreement we have always agreed 100%, this time however, sorry buddy, I have to disagree with your thinking

Of course Rathbone may have genuinely believed his statement. No question about it.

But I don't always accept every statement made by every person at absolute face value, especially if I question that statement. In any event, Power and Rathbone put on one heck of a show in their Zorro duel. My biggest grievance with that film is that it continues for another 15 minutes afterward and everything following that wonderful duel is quite anti-climactic.

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25 minutes ago, TomJH said:

Yeh, I understand that the use of the word "elegant" in a description of a man may have negative connotations to some. I could use that same word to describe Cary Grant, as well as Flynn (at least when Errol was in his prime).

But, for me and I suspect a lot of others,  that elegance in speech and manner and physical prowess was not a compromise on Flynn's screen masculinity, and that makes him pretty unique for an actor largely associated with action films, don't you think?

Well yes, I do of course Tom, but THAT'S probably because my OWN natural "elegance" predisposes me to appreciate such a quality in another person! ;)

LOL

 

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1 hour ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

I can even do it myself: see, "I happen to recall Rathbone praising the skill of Danny Kaye". It's terrible!

Here is a quote from TCM's page about the Court Jester

> Basil Rathbone had studied fencing for many years and was considered one of the best in Hollywood. However, he was 64 years old when the film was shot and had to be doubled in some scenes by the famed fencing coach, Ralph Faulkner, who spoke highly of Kaye, calling him "a brilliant person, both mentally and physically." One scene called for Kaye to fence with Rathbone while pouring a glass of wine and drinking it, which was very difficult. Rathbone was simply unable to keep up the speed and so shots of Faulkner were edited in.

> Basil Rathbone wrote about the experience in his autobiography, saying that he was shocked that after only a few weeks of training, "Danny Kaye could completely outfight me! Even granting the difference in our ages, Danny's reflexes were incredibly fast, and nothing had to be shown or explained to him a second time. I was talking to him once about this, and he told me (in effect) that his mind worked like a camera that took perfect pictures, and that he had a very keen sense of mime that could immediately translate the still picture into physical movement. Hear or see anything just once and he could imitate it without the slightest effort."

_____________________________________________________________________

Rathbone certainly did praise Kaye's ability Sgt. so what's so terrible? Obviously Rathbone said it and meant it.

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2 hours ago, TomJH said:

I always wondered about this statement by Rathbone. Actually what he said was that Power could have dueled Errol Flynn into a cocked hat.

And I for one think it's a great pity that we'll never know if he was right. Because that is a hot mental image.

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My remarks were perhaps poorly constructed but they weren't directed at any specific individual. Perhaps this wasn't clear; my fault.

My point remains. It was this: quotes from decades ago are easily bandied about. They're often used to spurious purposes. No one's to blame. It's just a habit people have. "Whisper down the lane" effect, I'm sure you know it.

I believe in not taking comments at face-value as was stated above. There's not a single quote referenced in this thread I'm willing to take as iron-clad; I don't care where it comes from or who quoted it.

Certain infirmities in the record --we speculate on them--and although we're still just construing --its fairly safe ruminations to air. Human nature being what it is.

There's no reason to assume Rathbone was free from personal spite. Everyone's human. Whatever he may have said about anyone, I won't let my own judgement be guided by it.

He's not the arbiter of anything, at this date so far removed.

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9 hours ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

There's no reason to assume Rathbone was free from personal spite. Everyone's human. Whatever he may have said about anyone, I won't let my own judgement be guided by it.

He's not the arbiter of anything, at this date so far removed.

Rathbone's opinion has weight, I feel, because he was generally renowned as the best fencer on the screen at the time (he fenced as a hobby) and neither Power nor Flynn ever looked better in their screen duels than when they faced him (in Zorro and Robin Hood, respectively).

But, having said that, as you stated, Sarge, he was human and who is to say with certainty that a prejudice or spite of some kind did not influence his statement about the fencing abilities of the two actors. I question the statement because of the fencing performances by Power and Flynn in their non-Rathbone films. Flynn is simply more impressive, in my opinion.

Having said that, Flynn, who was always quite modest about his film achievements, never claimed that he was a good fencer. He said he knew how to look good with a sword in his hand.

Looking back on those two beautifully choreographed duels that Rathbone had with the two, you have to wonder how much weight all three actors lost in their rehearsals for the duels, as well as the final product appearing on the screen. All three actors had reason to be proud when they looked back upon their fencing performances in these two films.

The-Mark-of-Zorro.png

Robin+Hood+Sword++duel+2.jpg

 

P.S.: By the way, Sarge, in case you missed it, there was a review of your performance in Beau Geste in the I Just Watched thread a couple of days ago.

 

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On 10/19/2018 at 9:03 AM, SunAndMoon said:

He looks like a woman in Captain Blood.

While I don't agree with that assessment, I know that as a little kid my mother told me that one of my aunts, as a little girl, was told that she looked like Flynn in Captain Blood. Perhaps it was more a case of being teased about it by her sisters because she apparently got quite annoyed by it. As a kid I thought, what's the problem, at least they said she looked like a good looking guy.

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Oh I certainly agree that taken in context, Rathbone knew his topic (fencing). My quibble is just that his statements lend themselves too readily to Hollywood backbiting.

A former crony of mine was heavily involved with swordfight choreography; all these nuances have been aired many times on other forums and that's why I haven't bothered to restate the plain and obvious such as Rathbone's expertise. I'm just focusing on what I thought was a good point you made, namely that Rathbone's approval or disapproval in itself, ought not always be blandly accepted outright.

By the way my fave flick with Flynn and Rathbone together is 'Dawn Patrol'. No swords at all. They are finally on par with each other there and demonstrate some good chemistry.

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