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Subversion


CaveGirl
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Now, read carefully, that is subversion not submersion, which is a whole other thing!

I think it should be apparent to all that many movies are made using subversion tactics, namely having a whole other subterranean purpose than the supposed surface storyline. But, to the dismay of many, some people live their whole lives not seeing any hidden purpose in such films, and think that "Plan Nine from Outer Space" is just about aliens who are friends with Vampira and missing totally the real story which the actor's name of Dudley Manlove, should have made obvious.


Yes! PNFOS is about homosexuality amongst alien races which the aliens like Eros were trying to bring to earth. Isn't it just so clear, what with using an actor named Manlove, that Ed Wood knew just what he was doing in this gender-bending epic? Plus, Ed Wood also subverted the US Government since they liked to always get involved with any films about outer space incidents and try to expurgate things they didn't agree with, and convince the populace that Blue Book was on top of things, and that no little green men came down in Roswell, New Mexico. But Ed Wood, genius that he was, knew if he made a totally goofy and amateur looking film, that no Blue Book officials would come down on its implication that we were being invaded continually by forces from other planets, hence the subversion technique worked and the film was not censored.


Another film with a hidden, subverted nature is of course, "The Blair Witch Project". Ostensibly a horror film about students making a documentary in the Maryland woods, and their travails, what it is really about in its subtext is the fall of the Women's Lib empire into oblivion. If you notice, the whole plot is about how the bossy chick on the trip keeps trying to control the two guys and her demagoguery eventually ends in tragedy, as neither guy would stand up to her and put her in her place. Well, these are just two examples but if you try I bet you can come up with many other examples in films where the exterior story is just a crock, to cover up the hidden agenda of its creators. Let's see what you come up with and don't disappoint me, okay?

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Hmmmmm...well, contrary to what I would presume most people thinking the movie Jaws as primarily being about one big freakin' monstrous and mean as hell shark, I on the OTHER hand knew RIGHT away and from my very first viewing of this flick back when it first hit the big screen, that it's REALLY more about how people should always strive for the grander things in life. 

(...like say purchasing a bigger boat than what they might at first think they'll ever need)

;)

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Or take Vertigo (please!). This is not the story about obsession or murder. It is simply about a man who got cured of acrophobia. The crux of the matter is whether or not  he thought it was worth it. Considering how PO'ed he was at the end, he must have thought it was. After all, he's got to have something to look forward to (besides living happily ever after with Midge).

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17 hours ago, Dargo said:

Hmmmmm...well, contrary to what I would presume most people thinking the movie Jaws as primarily being about one big freakin' monstrous and mean as hell shark, I on the OTHER hand knew RIGHT away and from my very first viewing of this flick back when it first hit the big screen, that it's REALLY more about how people should always strive for the grander things in life. 

(...like say purchasing a bigger boat than what they might at first think they'll ever need)

;)

Interesting interpretation. Here's Zizek's interpretation of the film's message.

His idea is that it represents "everything and nothing." It can be interpreted in many ways.

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On 9/13/2018 at 1:15 PM, CaveGirl said:

the whole plot is about how the bossy chick on the trip keeps trying to control the two guys and her demagoguery eventually ends in tragedy, as neither guy would stand up to her and put her in her place.

So the lesson that's being made is that if your boss is a chick, you should tell her, in no uncertain terms, that you're not gonna do what she tells you to do - and, presumably, smack that **** down if you need to?

Well now, that is subversive.

Only thing is - in those woods, they'd still be ****** up even if they had told her to go **** herself, wouldn't they?

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It wouldn't surprise me, and too, would amuse me for many people to find out that there weren't  any of the "messages" THEY percieved and thought were cleverly "hidden" by some kind of subversion. 

I mean, how many tmes have any of YOU guys said something basically innocuous that was taken to mean something unintended by simple misunderstanding by someone else?  Example( once mentioned before)---

A guy I worked with one day years ago came back from a bereavement period due to his Father dying.  This was a few short weeks after MY Dad died, and I went up to him and said, "I can appreciate  your grief."  Well... next I knew I was flat on my back with my jaw throbbing with him standing over me with fist still formed.  Our foreman, after seeing him deck me came over and demanded on knowing why he hit me, and the guy said, "He said he was GLAD my Dad died!"  :huh:  So, the boss asked me just what it was I DID say, and upon telling him, took the guy aside and explained things to him.  

Sepiatone

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56 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

It wouldn't surprise me, and too, would amuse me for many people to find out that there weren't  any of the "messages" THEY perceived and thought were cleverly "hidden" by some kind of subversion. 

Making up subplots, counter-meanings, and messages for after-the-fact insertion into otherwise straightforward narratives is fun, easy, and quite useful to the practice of cynical manipulation.

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10 hours ago, darkblue said:

So the lesson that's being made is that if your boss is a chick, you should tell her, in no uncertain terms, that you're not gonna do what she tells you to do - and, presumably, smack that **** down if you need to?

Well now, that is subversive.

Only thing is - in those woods, they'd still be ****** up even if they had told her to go **** herself, wouldn't they?

Wow, darkblue...you got bleeped all over the place!

Now true, the smackdown you describe might not work in your office, but I know you well enough that you would not have let that chick push you around in the woods, and keep shoving that wrinkled map in your face continually, and trying to bully and chastize you. And that bit with her runny nose and flashlit face would not have put you under her spell either, since she looked like a drowned cat.

She would have ended up hanging in the corner of the room, by the end of the film and then you could have found your way out, by checking for all the broken tree branches you'd been snapping off since you entered the woods.


Am I right?

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On 9/14/2018 at 12:05 AM, Dargo said:

Hmmmmm...well, contrary to what I would presume most people thinking the movie Jaws as primarily being about one big freakin' monstrous and mean as hell shark, I on the OTHER hand knew RIGHT away and from my very first viewing of this flick back when it first hit the big screen, that it's REALLY more about how people should always strive for the grander things in life. 

(...like say purchasing a bigger boat than what they might at first think they'll ever need)

;)

A "bigger boat" was needed?

Did you also think that when you first saw "King Kong", Dar? You know that Kong was way too big to put on that boat to bring him back to civilization. They would have had to drag him all the way from Skull Island back to Manhattan and he would have drowned.

But your consensus about the real meaning of "Jaws" is on target. Thanks!

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On 9/14/2018 at 12:57 AM, laffite said:

Or take Vertigo (please!). This is not the story about obsession or murder. It is simply about a man who got cured of acrophobia. The crux of the matter is whether or not  he thought it was worth it. Considering how PO'ed he was at the end, he must have thought it was. After all, he's got to have something to look forward to (besides living happily ever after with Midge).

Imagine the sequel. One more lady who looks like Madeleine/Judy is found, and lady #3 falls off a tower. I think the tower is meant to show a phallic presence that Scotty is without, and when he tries to climb it, there is always a fall, if you get my drift.

If I had only Midge to end up with if I were a guy, I'd throw myself off a tower also. 

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On 9/14/2018 at 7:46 AM, Sepiatone said:

:rolleyes:

Like those who still insist on the "homoerotic" relationship between Judah Ben-Hur and Messala , it can be stated that anyone, looking hard enough, will see what they're looking for, regardless of it being there or not.  

Sepiatone

Oooh, you went there, Sepia!

Thanks...

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On 9/14/2018 at 7:46 AM, Sepiatone said:

:rolleyes: Like those who still insist on the "homoerotic" relationship between Judah Ben-Hur and Messala , it can be stated that anyone, looking hard enough, will see what they're looking for, regardless of it being there or not.  

 

7 minutes ago, CaveGirl said:

Oooh, you went there, Sepia!

Thanks...

Do the homosexually-inclined ever not see homoeroticism in any movie?

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4 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

It wouldn't surprise me, and too, would amuse me for many people to find out that there weren't  any of the "messages" THEY percieved and thought were cleverly "hidden" by some kind of subversion. 

I mean, how many tmes have any of YOU guys said something basically innocuous that was taken to mean something unintended by simple misunderstanding by someone else?  Example( once mentioned before)---

A guy I worked with one day years ago came back from a bereavement period due to his Father dying.  This was a few short weeks after MY Dad died, and I went up to him and said, "I can appreciate  your grief."  Well... next I knew I was flat on my back with my jaw throbbing with him standing over me with fist still formed.  Our foreman, after seeing him deck me came over and demanded on knowing why he hit me, and the guy said, "He said he was GLAD my Dad died!"  :huh:  So, the boss asked me just what it was I DID say, and upon telling him, took the guy aside and explained things to him.  

Sepiatone

Tell me about it, Sepia!

I post something here like "Gee, I have no children that I know of..." and sure enough, there will be one person who will feel the need to write me a  post which says something like the following:

"Miss Cavegirl, I don't think it makes any sense that you say you have no children that you know of, since you are a female and that is only said by men who cannot get pregnant so they mean when they say it that they could have children left in Vietnam or near their neighborhood watering hole, by women who did get pregnant. I just thought you might want to know this and correct your post since you seem confused about what that line really means when you use it."

I can share your pain at the language barrier from your story. It reminds me of the episode of I think "Celebrity Rehab" wherein someone implied that drugs were found in Jeff Conaway's room and he said he knew nothing about it, and I think one of the Baldwin brothers said "Well, maybe unbeknownst to you they got put in your room" and due to the fact that Conaway apparently had no idea what the word "unbeknownst" meant, he was up and ready to slug Baldwin!

I guess that's what you get for using those big words, Sepia and what I get for trying to be snide. We both won't have punishment in an after life as we have to suffer for these transgressions here on earth by those who don't GET US!!!

Life can be so difficult.

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2 minutes ago, darkblue said:

 

Do the homosexually-inclined ever not see homoeroticism in any movie?

I don't know, darkblue. 

There are so many things which can enter into sexual paraphilias, that this is beyond my field of comprehension.

Might be a good topic for a film though, and we could have everything in the film be an erotic object except for one thing...nudity.


 

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4 hours ago, darkblue said:

Making up subplots, counter-meanings, and messages for after-the-fact insertion into otherwise straightforward narratives is fun, easy, and quite useful to the practice of cynical manipulation.

That's so true, darkblue. I had a friend once who was dating a guy who had that avocation of following twisters. He met us at a bar once, detailing all his exploits and about the book he was writing and I said to him "Gee, isn't it true that the search for the twister is just a search for fulfillment and satisfaction in a phallic environment and that men following twisters might have some impotency issues?"


Well, that twisted his mind a bit, but of course I just made it all up for fun.  I sure hope he didn't really believe me, I'd just feel so so bad...boo hoo!

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3 minutes ago, CaveGirl said:

I said to him "Gee, isn't it true that the search for the twister is just a search for fulfillment and satisfaction in a phallic environment and that men following twisters might have some impotency issues?"

I woulda just said "Yeah - and they spin good too."

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43 minutes ago, CaveGirl said:

Might be a good topic for a film though, and we could have everything in the film be an erotic object except for one thing...nudity. 

[inserts clip of Andy Devine in Island in the Sky wearing just his swimming trunks doing a cannonball into a swimming pool]

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Really, Zea?

A horse is just a horse?

Of course...of course!

Bamboo Harvester would agree with you on that one, though I have a funny feeling that as an equine he might be more partial to Freud's interpretation of dreams and p-e-n-i-s envy theories than Jung's cosmic consciousness ones, doncha think?

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49 minutes ago, darkblue said:

Do the homosexually-inclined ever not see homoeroticism in any movie?

How about Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison?

I bet people would be hard-pressed to find it in most of the Fitzpatrick Traveltalks shorts, too.

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