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Trump & the Saudis?


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Putin visits Saudi Arabia in sign of growing ties

Putin signs oil agreements and discusses regional security in his first visit to the kingdom since 2007.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/putin-visits-saudi-arabia-sign-growing-ties-191014171206513.html?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5da4fe40594d1700014c5984&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

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Trump admin apparently over Khashoggi killing,

will attend Saudi’s ‘Davos in the Desert’

Treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin and presidential son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner plan to attend this year’s “Davos in the Desert,” a Saudi Arabian economic conference the US and many others skipped last year after Saudi security agents murdered Washington Post contributor Jamal Khashoggi.

https://qz.com/1732135/kushner-and-mnunchin-will-attend-saudis-davos-in-the-desert/

They will be there even though little has been done to prosecute those responsible for the murder. Human Rights Watch said in a recent statement that the Saudis have not seriously investigated the crime and have, in fact, “obstructed meaningful accountability for Khashoggi’s murder.” The government has “refused to cooperate with an investigation led by the UN special rapporteur for extrajudicial killings,” according to the nonprofit, and Saudi authorities continue their “sweeping campaign of repression against dissidents and activists.”

 
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Saudis recruited Twitter workers to spy on users

U.S. prosecutors say the Saudi government recruited two Twitter employees to get personal account information of their critics.

The complaint unsealed Wednesday in U.S. District Court in San Francisco detailed a coordinated effort by Saudi officials to recruit employees at the social media giant to look up the private data of thousands of Twitter accounts.

The accounts included those of a popular journalist with more than 1 million followers and other prominent government critics...

https://apnews.com/2a04ef6d767347b1bb4308c66e65a8c6?utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter

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NYT: Six other Saudi nationals were detained for questioning near the scene of the shooting,

including three who were seen filming the entire incident, according to a person briefed on the initial stages of the investigation.

https://nytimes.com/2019/12/06/us/nas-pensacola-shooting.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share via

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Since it was Saudi nationals who highjacked the airliners that flew into the World Trade Center one's gotta wonder why we tolerated a  U. S. president walking hand in hand with a Saudi leader, or why Saudi nationals are allowed to be trained at a U.S. military base.   

Sepiatone

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2 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Since it was Saudi nationals who highjacked the airliners that flew into the World Trade Center one's gotta wonder why we tolerated a  U. S. president walking hand in hand with a Saudi leader, or why Saudi nationals are allowed to be trained at a U.S. military base.   

Sepiatone

Can't blame Trump for this one.  Every American president to some extent has been friendly with Saudi Arabia.   They dominate the petroleum industry and they are the major opponents of Iran in the region.   While some of their people are radical, the government itself has not been and the government has been supportive of American interests.  Except about Israel, but that is another story.

Just as we do not hold our government officials responsible for mass shootings and so forth, we cannot hold a foreign government responsible for what a few of  its people do.   Taking preventive actions or  actions to punish the guilty is another thing.

The US has been training foreign nationals at our military bases since before WW II.   Part of it is we have to train their personnel on how to operate and maintain our military equipment that we sell to them (at a huge profit).  Otherwise they would purchase the equipment from Russia or China or France, Germany or UK at best.

The US government has determined that it is in the best interest of American defense policy to have as many foreign countries as possible dependent upon our arms industry.  Not only do the companies make a huge profit, but it also keeps the American companies in business to supply the US military with arms.

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6 minutes ago, TheCid said:

Can't blame Trump for this one.  Every American president to some extent has been friendly with Saudi Arabia.   They dominate the petroleum industry and they are the major opponents of Iran in the region.   While some of their people are radical, the government itself has not been and the government has been supportive of American interests.  Except about Israel, but that is another story.

Just as we do not hold our government officials responsible for mass shootings and so forth, we cannot hold a foreign government responsible for what a few of  its people do.   Taking preventive actions or  actions to punish the guilty is another thing.

The US has been training foreign nationals at our military bases since before WW II.   Part of it is we have to train their personnel on how to operate and maintain our military equipment that we sell to them (at a huge profit).  Otherwise they would purchase the equipment from Russia or China or France, Germany or UK at best.

The US government has determined that it is in the best interest of American defense policy to have as many foreign countries as possible dependent upon our arms industry.  Not only do the companies make a huge profit, but it also keeps the American companies in business to supply the US military with arms.

So Trump is in clear because others were just as bad?    What about Trump covering for the Crown Prince over the Khashoggi murder?

And you are fine with cash for arms even if it means selling to a dictatorship that abuses human rights and practices genocide as does Saudi Arabia?

I'm fully aware of how the world words by the way.  I just would like to know how you feel about it all?  You stuck your neck out with that post so I'm asking.

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" While some of their people are radical, the government itself has not been"

Jesus **** Christ. "Saudi Arabia's government is not radical" Crucifying people and beheading people is normal. Abusing women is normal. Yup, that's totally normal behavior.

Edited by TCMModerator1
Edited for Language
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6 hours ago, Gershwin fan said:

" While some of their people are radical, the government itself has not been"

Jesus **** Christ. "Saudi Arabia's government is not radical" Crucifying people and beheading people is normal. Abusing women is normal. Yup, that's totally normal behavior.

That is NOT the definition of radical in this context.  Radical is Al Qaeda, ISIS and similar.

You totally misinterpreted what I said and the facts as they are.   Useless to try to explain to you or others at this point.

Edited by TCMModerator1
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4 hours ago, TheCid said:

That is NOT the definition of radical in this context.  Radical is Al Qaeda, ISIS and similar.

You totally misinterpreted what I said and the facts as they are.   Useless to try to explain to you or others at this point.

Okay then explain the difference. I'm all ears. To me, Saudi Arabia has shown itself to be the equal of Al Qaeda and ISIS, if not surpassing even them in brutality.  If you think "they buy weapons from us" will make me like them then you're barking up the wrong tree.

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12 hours ago, Gershwin fan said:

Okay then explain the difference. I'm all ears. To me, Saudi Arabia has shown itself to be the equal of Al Qaeda and ISIS, if not surpassing even them in brutality.  If you think "they buy weapons from us" will make me like them then you're barking up the wrong tree.

I was planning on dropping this discussion, but will reply to this one.  If you do not already understand the difference and the intricacies of international relations,  I can't explain it here.  Buying weapons from us is not the only reason for having a working relationship with Saudi Arabia or any other country.  It just happens to be one of many.

Incidentally I base my positions on having served in military units focused on the Middle East and Saudi Arabia in particular.  I also completed training on the Middle East and served in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War while waiting to go into Iraq.

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Buying weapons from us?  Don'tcha think they have the money and wherewithal to build their own?  And think about this....

What did the Japanese do with a lot of that oil and steel they bought from us up to Dec. 1941?  

You're basically stating that money should trump common sense and caution.  Saudi Arabia is still making billions off of us through oil sale and gasoline consumption.  Don'tcha think that's "friendly" enough?  

Sepiatone

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2 hours ago, TheCid said:

I was planning on dropping this discussion, but will reply to this one.  If you do not already understand the difference and the intricacies of international relations,  I can't explain it here.  Buying weapons from us is not the only reason for having a working relationship with Saudi Arabia or any other country.  It just happens to be one of many.

Incidentally I base my positions on having served in military units focused on the Middle East and Saudi Arabia in particular.  I also completed training on the Middle East and served in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War while waiting to go into Iraq.

It is far beyond a working relationship.  The United States turns a blind eye and thus helps to enable Saudi Arabia in its continued human rights abuses.   I was asking if you were okay with that.  Not to give us a lecture on how the world works.  

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19 hours ago, TheCid said:

That is NOT the definition of radical in this context.  Radical is Al Qaeda, ISIS and similar.

You totally misinterpreted what I said and the facts as they are.   Useless to try to explain to you or others at this point.

Like most others here,  I agree that you appear to have a very brain-washed view of Saudi Arabia.   

It was only America's greed for oil that caused us to view them as an ally and the fact they are from a different tribe than Iran.     

The one area where you have the facts right is that Trump isn't to blame.    Due to pressure from the US oil industry and Israel lobbies all admins have been pro-SA when they should have remained neutral.

 

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Just to be clear I have acknowledged that Trump's giving Saudi a pass is not new to America politics.  I asked if it was a legitimate defence of Trump to simply point the finger at past  presidents doing the same and how did El Cid personally feel about America supporting such a nefarious regime.  i asked this of him as he "seemed" to post something to the effect that this was policy but didn't answer the moralistic question.  

Maybe he's right.  We don't really need an answer.  It is a rhetorical question.  Money trumps human rights.

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1 hour ago, Bogie56 said:

Just to be clear I have acknowledged that Trump's giving Saudi a pass is not new to America politics.  I asked if it was a legitimate defence of Trump to simply point the finger at past  presidents doing the same and how did El Cid personally feel about America supporting such a nefarious regime.  i asked this of him as he "seemed" to post something to the effect that this was policy but didn't answer the moralistic question.  

Maybe he's right.  We don't really need an answer.  It is a rhetorical question.  Money trumps human rights.

Since the USA is almost energy neutral and SA oil is a lot less important to the USA,  today support for SA isn't about money as much as it is about Israel and Iran.

Iran is still the major US enemy in the region because Israel wants it that way.      SA is a friend because they recognize Israel and are anti-Iran.

Settling our differences with Iran should be the USA's major middle-east initiative.    

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20 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Since the USA is almost energy neutral and SA oil is a lot less important to the USA,  today support for SA isn't about money as much as it is about Israel and Iran.

Iran is still the major US enemy in the region because Israel wants it that way.      SA is a friend because they recognize Israel and are anti-Iran.

Settling are differences with Iran should be the USA's major middle-east initiative.    

American oil companies are operating in Saudi.  They provide services.  In Iran they don't.

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2 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

In what way do "most others here have a brain-washed view of Saudi Arabia"?

lol. A bit of a slip. He wants to call everyone else stupid even when he agrees with them.

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4 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Buying weapons from us?  Don'tcha think they have the money and wherewithal to build their own?  And think about this....

What did the Japanese do with a lot of that oil and steel they bought from us up to Dec. 1941?  

You're basically stating that money should trump common sense and caution.  Saudi Arabia is still making billions off of us through oil sale and gasoline consumption.  Don'tcha think that's "friendly" enough?  

Sepiatone

First,  my original post was in response to one blaming the Saudi Arabian government for the shooting in Pensacola.  Also why the US trains foreign military.  My point was that the SA government had nothing to do with the attack.

Furthermore, we support the SA government because it supports US in the Middle East in just about all things except Israel.  It provides a serious counter to Iran and similar in the area.  This is in the interest of the US.  They dominate the petroleum industry and have often used their influence in OPEC to take actions favorable to US consumers.

While they may have the money to build their own, it is not in the best interest of the US, NATO, EU, et. al. for another country to start manufacturing the weapons of war.  If they make them, they will sell them to somebody who will likely use them against US or Israel.   And as I pointed out if we do not sell them the weapons, the Russians and Chinese will.

Very importantly, my posts re: the US arms industry and SA being a client was just as an also - not the primary reason US has a favorable relationship with them.  I NEVER said "money should trump common sense and caution."  Just that it was a factor that keeps Americans employed in America and contributes taxes to US government programs.  AND that it was a reason why SA military (and others) train at US military facilities.

International relations is not simple and not always good, but it is what it is.  Unfortunatley, some people do not understand that.  I also find it amusing that some of the most ardent critics of Trump and Republicans being racists very quickly jumped on an Arab nation and its people.  And don't say you didn't.

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1 hour ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Since the USA is almost energy neutral and SA oil is a lot less important to the USA,  today support for SA isn't about money as much as it is about Israel and Iran.

Iran is still the major US enemy in the region because Israel wants it that way.      SA is a friend because they recognize Israel and are anti-Iran.

Settling our differences with Iran should be the USA's major middle-east initiative.    

Your first two statements support what I have been saying.  Thank you.  I agree that we should settle our differences with Iran, but that is extremely difficult, even if Trump had not cancelled the nuclear deal.  Also, SA does not recognize Israel, but they are not as belligerent toward them as some other Middle Eastern nations.

2 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Hey,  Larry;  Typo:   Meant to say that I agree with others (e.g. Bogie),  that Cid's views about SA are mostly bull.

Jamesjazzguitar said:  "Hey,  Larry;  Typo:   Meant to say that I agree with others (e.g. Bogie),  that Cid's views about SA are mostly bull."  This was in someone else's post, as a quote and James' actual post appears to have been deleted.

Regardless, my ideas re: Saudi Arabia  may be bull for you and some others here.  However, they are based on long, long familiarity with SA as a favorable nation to the US and sometimes an ally (Gulf War).  As I said before I served in a US military unit with a mission that involved SA, was trained on SA and the Middle East and served in SA during the Gulf War.

54 minutes ago, Gershwin fan said:

lol. A bit of a slip. He wants to call everyone else stupid even when he agrees with them.

If you are talking about me, look in the mirror.  I do not recall ever saying anyone was stupid (maybe Trump).  I have said they may not be well informed about many things, but that is not the same.

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46 minutes ago, TheCid said:

First,  my original post was in response to one blaming the Saudi Arabian government for the shooting in Pensacola.  Also why the US trains foreign military.  My point was that the SA government had nothing to do with the attack

I do find it interesting that anti-Trump folks and media outlets like CNN,   appear to be blaming the SA government for the shooting in Pensacola.    They had on guy one that mentioned the 9\11 hijackers.        What's next,  calling for a Muslim ban?       (that is an ironic joke!).

 

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