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Sepiatone

That's ONE way to put it I've not heard before...

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12 minutes ago, Gershwin fan said:

I wouldn't even consider either of those movies as noir. 

Possibly because you are unwilling to extend your definition of the term, so it covers films with protagonists of a younger age. And that's fine. But I think there is plenty of evidence in the texts of those films to make a strong case they have noir elements.

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2 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

I classify HOUSE BY THE RIVER (1950) as gothic noir. It's also a legal noir because the courtroom sequence is pivotal with regards to the outcome, whether a murderer will evade justice. It's truly one of Fritz Lang's best films. Certainly one of the best films that Republic Pictures ever made.

MOONRISE (1948), also from Republic and directed by Frank Borzage, is another gothic noir.

You can add Gaslight, Hangover Square, and The Spiral Staircase

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1 minute ago, TopBilled said:

Possibly because you are unwilling to extend your definition of the term, so it covers films with protagonists of a younger age. And that's fine. But I think there is plenty of evidence in the texts of those films to make a strong case they have noir elements.

No, it's not because they're young. It's because the Innocents seem to clearly be a horror movie to me. 

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How about Garbage Pail Kids?  South Park? (back when they killed Kenny off in every episode)  Proto-playground noir?  How quantifiable does this need to be.  http://moviecollectoroh.com/pics_to_hotlink_on_TCM/forum-twisted.gif

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Just now, Gershwin fan said:

No, it's not because they're young. It's because the Innocents seem to clearly be a horror movie to me. 

There are a lot of films that fall on the cusp, depending of your predilections they could go either way.

 

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Someone earlier mentioned Margaret O'Brien. I'd say that of all her films, the one that has the most noir elements in it is THE UNFINISHED DANCE. In that story O'Brien's character is filled with jealousy and anger...and she "accidentally" causes an accomplished ballerina (Karin Booth) to become crippled. She could have killed the woman because of her rage and misdeed. 

In the original French version BALLERINA (1937) the "accident" was presented as being much more intentional. She was clearly a little girl with murderous tendencies.

Incidentally THE UNFINISHED DANCE was not a hit with audiences in 1947, probably because the darker subject matter was too much for American audiences to accept. They went to it, seeing Margaret O'Brien and Danny Thomas on the poster, thinking it was going to be wholesome family entertainment. The film does manage to have a contrived 'happy' ending. But the overall theme led to bad worth of mouth which hurt its chances at the box office and prevented it from turning a profit for MGM.

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16 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

You can add Gaslight, Hangover Square, and The Spiral Staircase

Yes, indeed...all excellent examples. Thank you for mentioning those. Director Robert Siodmak was one of the main "architects" of gothic noir in the 1940s, with efforts like THE SPIRAL STAIRCASE; THE SUSPECT; and THE STRANGE AFFAIR OF UNCLE HARRY.

TCM needs to set aside an evening for a spotlight on Siodmak's best Hollywood films.

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Just now, TopBilled said:

Yes, indeed...all excellent examples. Thank you for mentioning those. Director Robert Siodmak was one of the main "architects" of gothic noir in the 1940s, with films like THE SPIRAL STAIRCASE; THE SUSPECT; and THE STRANGE AFFAIR OF UNCLE HARRY.

TCM needs to set aside an evening for a spotlight on Siodmak's best Hollywood films.

I think The Lodger fits in there also

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15 minutes ago, Gershwin fan said:

No, it's not because they're young. It's because the Innocents seem to clearly be a horror movie to me. 

Thanks for better explaining your point of view.

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Just now, TopBilled said:

Thanks for better explaining your point of view.

I do agree with Gaslight being noir though. Very good film too.

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4 hours ago, darkblue said:

And so you should.

As there has never been a universally-recognized determination of what exactly constitutes a "film noir" (dark film), there have been many "necessary" ingredients offered by would-be definers.

I would suggest that everyone trust themselves on what they feel. If it strikes you as film noir, it's film noir. If it strikes you as "noirish", that's fine too. Some will see your point and accept, others won't (and the most tiresome will insist on arguing about it ad infinitum - avoid those, they'll just shorten your life).

For myself, I've decided that there is one aspect that must be present in a film noir (for me to think of it as a film noir) - a scheming, wicked female must be a part of the movie's plot. Sure, black and white and cynicism and shadows and cities and double-crosses may all be aspects as well -

but no wicked female: not a film noir.

But that's just me. Everyone else - and I mean everyone - decides individually, to their sensibility, if it's noir or not.

Hmmm...now what IS it about this statement that doesn't surprise me in the least, I wonder folks???!!!

(...hmmm...oh wait, I think I know...but what say we keep that whole "MGTOW" thing in that OTHER forum over there)

LOL

 

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17 minutes ago, MovieCollectorOH said:

How about Garbage Pail Kids?  South Park? (back when they killed Kenny off in every episode)  Proto-playground noir?  How quantifiable does this need to be.  http://moviecollectoroh.com/pics_to_hotlink_on_TCM/forum-twisted.gif

How about that one furniture commercial where the guy stubs his toe on the sofa? :lol: 

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9 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

I think The Lodger fits in there also

Yes, most definitely. I prefer the remake MAN IN THE ATTIC (1953) because I think Jack Palance makes a much more convincing killer. Laird Cregar is a little too campy for my tastes. Palance is a method actor and he infuses Jack the Ripper's need for fetishistic sex with a more primitive type of urgency. In his scenes, the character seems to achieve orga-sm based on his destruction of women. It's quite repulsive but something a voyeuristic audience cannot stop watching... a brilliant performance he gives in that version.

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8 hours ago, TopBilled said:

...And to be clear, I am mostly using the phrase 'elements of noir' because I don't think there is any such thing as pure noir or pure blanc. In a world of absolute values maybe, but film is not quite absolute in my opinion. 

OH, well heck here TB, I can give you the DEFINITIVE answer to THAT!

Yep, "pure blanc" is any film where Bugs Bunny, Yosemite Sam and a HOST of other W-B cartoon characters open their mouths to speak!

(...gotta say I'm kind'a surprised you didn't know this)

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1 minute ago, Dargo said:

OH, well heck here TB, I can give you the DEFINITIVE answer to THAT!

Yep, "pure blanc" is any film where Bugs Bunny, Yosemite Sam and a HOST of other W-B cartoon characters open their mouths to speak!

(...gotta say I'm kind'a surprised you didn't know this)

I think that's the funniest post I've seen you come up with this year. Yes, levity is a good thing.

Thanks Dargo for keeping things light-hearted.

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9 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

I think that's the funniest post I've seen you come up with this year. Yes, levity is a good thing.

Thanks Dargo for keeping things light-hearted.

Yeah, well, thanks TB.

(...but I DO have a feelin' that my previous posting to THAT one didn't or won't exactly elicit much of a laugh from a certain Canadian dude up there!!!)

LOL

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Okay folks. Now I've been thinking about this whole noir "controversy" here, and after much thought and contemplation(sorry, that might be redundant, huh) I've come to ONE conclusion about it.

And that would be that ANYBODY who still watches TV on an old B&W set probably thinks they're watching a lot more film noir movies than they really are.

(...profound, EH?!) ;)

 

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43 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Yeah, well, thanks TB.

(...but I DO have a feelin' that my previous posting to THAT one didn't or won't exactly elicit much of a laugh from a certain Canadian dude up there!!!)

LOL

Was anyone as talented as Mel Blanc? It's strange to see what he looks like on episodes of the old Jack Benny show. The face doesn't exactly match the voice(s).

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ESD-Noir - When you forget and shuffle across the living room in the Winter, your hair stands on end,  and then you touch the TV set, releasing thousands of volts of electrostatic discharge into the most sensitive bits of the TV set, and it finds the shortest path to ground.  It's a really dark movie.

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2 hours ago, TopBilled said:

Was anyone as talented as Mel Blanc? It's strange to see what he looks like on episodes of the old Jack Benny show. The face doesn't exactly match the voice(s).

Say, speakin' of Mel here...

Ya know, HE was in a film noir, don't ya?! Well okay, kind'a sort'a he was anyway...

22545208472_baa3b47116.jpg

The Super Snooper (1952)

(...and hey, LOOK, it even has one o' those "scheming wicked females" in it, and that I understand some people feel is an absolute MUST for a real TRUE film noir!)

LOL

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8 hours ago, Dargo said:

Hmmm...now what IS it about this statement that doesn't surprise me in the least, I wonder folks???!!!

(...hmmm...oh wait, I think I know...but what say we keep that whole "MGTOW" thing in that OTHER forum over there)

Are you not aware of the film noir staple, the femme fatale? It's pretty essential.

You know, all of history wasn't about mgtow, Dargo. That's just where it's winding up. Thank our modern wimmins, kids.

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5 hours ago, Dargo said:

Say, speakin' of Mel here...

Ya know, HE was in a film noir, don't ya?! Well okay, kind'a sort'a he was anyway...

22545208472_baa3b47116.jpg

The Super Snooper (1952)

(...and hey, LOOK, it even has one o' those "scheming wicked females" in it, and that I understand some people feel is an absolute MUST for a real TRUE film noir!)

LOL

Don't forget the Noir-est of them all The Great Piggy Bank Robbery 

 

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1 hour ago, cigarjoe said:

Don't forget the Noir-est of them all The Great Piggy Bank Robbery 

 

Sounds like a new sub-genre-- animated noir. :) 

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10 hours ago, Dargo said:

Yeah, well, thanks TB.

(...but I DO have a feelin' that my previous posting to THAT one didn't or won't exactly elicit much of a laugh from a certain Canadian dude up there!!!)

LOL

Au contraire, Sedona Kid.

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hqdefault.jpg

"Far out, man. A little White Russian would make all that joviality slide down even better."

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OK, fine.  But, let's not kill the messenger here.  I merely mentioned something I saw in a DVD's "features" section.

Perhaps too, you could explain just WHY you wouldn't consider SCROOGE  a "noir" by pointing out the why.

We'd perhaps have to look into why the French( where the term came from) CALLED certain movies "film noir"  and go from there.....

Sepiatone

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