That's ONE way to put it I've not heard before...

[Sgt_Markoff]

Or wait, how about this? If all I've said so far doesn't convince you, then forget it and make it just this:

What movie-maker ever asked for less money to make his picture with? What producer or director ever demanded their budget be reduced by their studio?

That's why you can't repeat noir 'on a whim'. That's why it isn't a 'style' that sometimes happens or sometimes doesn't.

"Boss, I want less money to film this story! See, money just isn't our thing! Take this surplus back, we really don't need it, give it to some other production. We already have too much equipment, B-list stars are better than A-list...you're simply being too generous, we'd be glad to film our movie on less than half of this amount!" --said by no one ever

[scsu1975]

5 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Yes,  it is common for people to frame issues into binary camps and view them from that perspective.   

There are 10 kinds of people; those that understand binary and those that don't.

[scsu1975]

50 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

Apologize for the late replies I've been away all day.

Nice to know someone around here has a life.

[cigarjoe]

5 minutes ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

Or wait, how about this? If all I've said so far doesn't convince you, then forget it and make it just this:

What movie-maker ever asked for less money to make his picture with? What producer or director ever demanded their budget be reduced by their studio?

That's why you can't repeat noir 'on a whim'. That's why it isn't a 'style' that sometimes happens or sometimes doesn't.

"Boss, I want less money to film this story! See, money just isn't our thing! Take this surplus back, we really don't need it, give it to some other production. We already have too much equipment, B-list stars are better than A-list...you're simply being too generous, we'd be glad to film our movie on less than half of this amount!" --said by no one ever

You're off your liquid meds again, better head down to your local and get medicated.

[Dargo]

30 minutes ago, scsu1975 said:

There are 10 kinds of people; those that understand binary and those that don't.

Saaay, didn't you steal that line from Yogi Berra???

[scsu1975]

52 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Saaay, didn't you steal that line from Yogi Berra???

No, from a computer programmer.

[Sgt_Markoff]

Quote

Yogi Berra

That's some kind of a religion, isn't it?

[Sgt_Markoff]

Quote

You're off your liquid meds again, better head down to your local and get medicated.

I can prove with --geometric logic--! That a pint of frozen strawberries was stolen from this officer's mess!

[TomJH]

2 hours ago, Dargo said:

Saaay, didn't you steal that line from Yogi Berra???

"Just so long as he doesn't steal my 'Smarter than the average bear' line."

[Dargo]

33 minutes ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

I can prove with --geometric logic--! That a pint of frozen strawberries was stolen from this officer's mess!

Well, that proves it here, folks!

Sarge, I always KNEW you had balls of steel!

(...no no, not that kind, dude...don't get excited) 

[Dargo]

13 minutes ago, TomJH said:

"Just so long as he doesn't steal my 'Smarter than the average bear' line."

So, I take it Rich is STILL allowed to steal the occasional pic-a-nic basket though, right?!

[SansFin]

3 hours ago, scsu1975 said:

There are 10 kinds of people; those that understand binary and those that don't.

There are two kinds of people: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.

[Dargo]

36 minutes ago, SansFin said:

There are two kinds of people: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Uh-huh, uh-huh, keep goin'! And those that...????

(...aaaaah...guess I must be in that second group then, eh Sans?!) 

[darkblue]

35 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Uh-huh, uh-huh, keep goin'! And those that...????

"know better than to do so" would be my guess.

[Sepiatone]

All of this seems to point out one indisputable fact;   NONE of us seem to know as much as we all like to THINK we do.   

"Noir" is this--"Noir" is that, it is or is not, blah,blah, blah, blah,.........

And "Noir Alley" host Muller claims it to be a "lifestyle" because he said his FATHER LIVED it!    So I can ony come to one conclusion...

"Noir" is a film industry RORSCHACH test. 

Sepiatone

[scsu1975]

1 hour ago, Sepiatone said:

All of this seems to point out one indisputable fact;   NONE of us seem to know as much as we all like to THINK we do.   

 

There are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.

[misswonderly3]

28 minutes ago, scsu1975 said:

There are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.

This is appropriate, given that the thread started with talking about the 1951 "Scrooge". Because when old Scrooge wakes up Christmas morning, all reformed and joyful, he sings a song that goes, "I don't know anything, I never did know anything, but now I know that I don't know, all on a Christmas morning."

edit: I found a clip of it. Unfortunately it's colourized, but you can't have everything.

Hey, maybe it's a noir element that he decides to stand on his head.

[misswonderly3]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:31 AM, Sepiatone said:

I'll make this quick( since I'm behind my schedule )  but after viewing my DVD of '51's "Scrooge"( or "A Christmas Carol") I had time to spare and took in some of the "features".  And in one of them, saw where the movie was referred to as "A Christmas Noir."

Well, I never thought of the movie in that term, but it does seem to fit.   

Thoughts?

Sepiatone

I thought I'd go right back to the beginning of this.

Sepiatone, upon due (or maybe overdue) reflection, I've realized that there are definitely what you could call "noir elements" present in dingy, gloomy, poverty-ravaged Victorian London. And there are many films set in Victorian London that are disturbing (check noir), in black and white (check noir), "dismal" (check some noirs), and may feature some aspect of mental illness and /or violence (check and check noir.)

Dickens' London was not a pretty or happy place, unless of course you were rich. It was dark and full of potential danger. Noirish. So I can kind of concede that some films set in that place and time "have noirish elements." Some have named one or two films about Jack the Ripper, of course there's Gaslight (both versions), and there are many others. So I can see where people "are coming from" when they want to label those kinds of films as "noir". Cigarjoe would say their "noir tuning forks" pick up on those dark and dangerous aspects to Victorian urban settings. OK.

But !  This does not mean that Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" is a noir story. It might have dark aspects to it - in fact it absolutely does - but its ultimate meaning and message is a positive one, a message of redemption and kindness and joy (very Christmassy, wouldn't you say?) Noir is generally not about redemption  and kindness and joy.

I'd kind of like to watch the original "extra track" commentary on the DVD you've got that set off all this controversy and judge for myself what exactly the film historian was saying.

[TomJH]

41 minutes ago, scsu1975 said:

There are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.

I know.

[Sgt_Markoff]

So ...is, "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" a children's noir? The opening to that movie has some dingy, discouraging streetscapes and menacing, nervous-making, scowling, grimacing characters dressed in sour, somber, Victorian-style garb...is this enough to make us overlook the big-budget, bright colors, musical numbers, and cheerful climax of the flick?

[scsu1975]

1 hour ago, TomJH said:

I know.

You only think you know.

[TopBilled]

I've created what I call a new glossary of noir:

 

[Brrrcold]

On 11/26/2018 at 7:33 PM, TomJH said:

The Night of the Hunter

Many seem to like applying noirish labels to a wide variety of films and undoubtedly have to Charles Laughton's sole directorial effort, as well. I have long thought of this difficult film to define (not neatly falling into any one genre box) as simply being a dark fairy tale.

I like 'The Night of the Hunter' and I think you're right that it's difficult to define. It's not noir, I don't think, because the the story ultimately resolves with an affirmation of human nature - even though the presence of evil is nearly constant.

It's the only example I believe of American Expressionism - similar to German Expressionism in its use of light and shadow, in its use of set pieces, and its narrative structure. The difference is that all the symbols it uses are drawn from the American folk and cultural experience, not the German/Central European experience. John Ford's 'The Informer' makes a similar stretch, but of course the cultural frame there is no American (even though Ford and his colleagues on that film were mostly American.)

[darkblue]

59 minutes ago, Brrrcold said:

I like 'The Night of the Hunter' and I think you're right that it's difficult to define. It's not noir, I don't think, because the the story ultimately resolves with an affirmation of human nature - even though the presence of evil is nearly constant.

It's a fable.

[Sgt_Markoff]

Quote

I've created what I call a new glossary of noir

Ehhh. That quintessential American quirk of classifying everything --like a reference encyclopedia--whether it serves any use or not.

To what can we liken this urge to 'tag everything downbeat as noir' to?

It seems to me like nothing so much as those very affected, foppish, cocktail-party chit-chat reflexes of the New York pseudo-intelligentsia in the 1950s. You remember that scene. People basically saying, "we can't offer a rational for what what's coming out of our mouths but let's just keep name-dropping  (Hemingway, Proust, Picasso, etc etc etc)".

It took a lot of hard work to get out of that era, why return to it?