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Democrats Begin Impeachment of Trump

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15 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

It is just a JOB and one that GOP Senators will NOT vote to remove him for.     So that means it's bloody time for nothing. 

Face reality;   Trump has to be defeated at the ballot box.

(and who did you mean by "they",,,,,,   there is no "they" here, ,,,, but instead Dems and the GOP).

 

Of course I realize the reality to which you speak.  I suppose my post about it just being a JOB is in reaction to all this c rap about the sacredness of the office and the treatment of the presidents as some sort of dieties.  "They" are the people who have the power to FIRE this dotard from his JOB.  That is what they should do.  Of course it doesn't look likely because it is all too corrupt..  What a joke.

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29 minutes ago, Bogie56 said:

Of course I realize the reality to which you speak.  I suppose my post about it just being a JOB is in reaction to all this c rap about the sacredness of the office and the treatment of the presidents as some sort of dieties.  "They" are the people who have the power to FIRE this dotard from his JOB.  That is what they should do.  Of course it doesn't look likely because it is all too corrupt..  What a joke.

Yea,  the GOP Senators are a complete joke when they claim there is nothing-there.     I need to see how many GOP Senators are up for re-election in 2020 in states that Trump won by <5% or so.     Maybe in those states these GOP incumbents will be defeated along with the dotard.

 

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16 hours ago, Hibi said:

And that's a sad state of affairs. Voting for their party over country. They don't care if he's guilty.

The Dems did the same thing with Bill Clinton.  Although Trump is far guiltier than Clinton and some Republicans voted not to convict Clinton.

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15 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Yea,  the GOP Senators are a complete joke when they claim there is nothing-there.     I need to see how many GOP Senators are up for re-election in 2020 in states that Trump won by <5% or so.     Maybe in those states these GOP incumbents will be defeated along with the dotard.

 

Very, very few GOP senators are in that category.  I think the one from Colorado may be the only one.  On the other hand, more Dem senators are in contested races.

In addition, many senators and representatives are very adept at delivering on local issues, so they win re-elections regardless of how the presidential races go.

As for the presidency being just a "JOB,"  no more so than the Queen of England being just a "JOB."  The American president is not the same as being a prime minister even though the president is elected.  The American president is both the head of state (queen) and head of government (PM).

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Democratic Counsel for the Judiciary Committee Barry Berke asks Republican Counsel for the Intelligence Committee
 
why he left out important parts of witness testimony unfavorable to President Trump
 
in the Intelligence Committee's "Minority Report"
 
:unsure:
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Mulvaney, Bolton and Giuliani have knowledge of how directly Trump was (or conceivably wasn't)
involved in pressuring Ukraine to help him politically.
 
In theory they could have exculpatory information.
 
That Trump won't permit or encourage them to testify really says it all.
 
<_<
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Seven Outright Falsehoods in GOP Staff Report on Impeachment

 

"....... Unlike the House Intelligence Committee’s Trump-Ukraine Impeachment Inquiry Report , the minority staff report makes no attempt to construct a coherent statement of facts, nor to offer its own version of events as an alternative to the one set forth in the majority’s report. The point of the minority report is not to offer an explanation of what really happened, but to make what really happened seem unknowable. ........

....much of the report doesn’t just dance around the truth so much as it strides into deliberate falsehood. In order to depict the events at the heart of the Trump-Ukraine impeachment inquiry in a light that could at all be construed as a defense of President Trump’s conduct, it appears that some outright lies were needed.

Here is a list of the seven most damaging falsehoods included in the minority report:

 

https://www.justsecurity.org/67658/seven-outright-falsehoods-in-gop-staff-report-on-impeachment/

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This article on CNN is interesting (but since CNN take it with a grain-of-salt):

The basic points I get is that Moscow Mitch wants the Senate trail to be done as quickly as possible;   I.e.  Let the Dems makes their case and then vote,  with Mitch implying "don't worry we will find you not-guilty" and thus this "event" is over in around 2 months. 

Trump it appears wish to drag the thing out,  call lot of witnesses,   testify himself,  etc....      Trump feels this will embarrasses the Dems since there-is-nothing-there.

My gut tells me Mitch believe there IS something-there but that he is willing to compel GOP Senators to vote NO,  period,  as long as what is-there doesn't get too public.   

Mitch doesn't like the Trump approach,  since it will force GOP Senators to answer questions like "how could you vote NO based on what you have seen and heard?".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/politics/donald-trump-mitch-mcconnell-senate-trial-impeachment/index.html

 

 

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38 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

This article on CNN is interesting (but since CNN take it with a grain-of-salt):

The basic points I get is that Moscow Mitch wants the Senate trail to be done as quickly as possible;   I.e.  Let the Dems makes their case and then vote,  with Mitch implying "don't worry we will find you not-guilty" and thus this "event" is over in around 2 months. 

Trump it appears wish to drag the thing out,  call lot of witnesses,   testify himself,  etc....      Trump feels this will embarrasses the Dems since there-is-nothing-there.

My gut tells me Mitch believe there IS something-there but that he is willing to compel GOP Senators to vote NO,  period,  as long as what is-there doesn't get too public.   

Mitch doesn't like the Trump approach,  since it will force GOP Senators to answer questions like "how could you vote NO based on what you have seen and heard?".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/politics/donald-trump-mitch-mcconnell-senate-trial-impeachment/index.html

 

 

And the longer it goes on the more chance there is of more damming evidence surfacing.   Let's face it.  Any evidence that surfaces (unless manufactured by Giuliani) is only going to help the case against Trump.

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Wow. Mueller gave these mfing idiots a road map to an obstruction of justice article and these dumb bastards

didn't even bother with it.  Gutless wonders like this deserve to lose. 

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23 minutes ago, Bogie56 said:

And the longer it goes on the more chance there is of more damming evidence surfacing.   Let's face it.  Any evidence that surfaces (unless manufactured by Giuliani) is only going to help the case against Trump.

As we have discussed nothing is going to 'help the case against Trump" as it relates to convincing enough GOP Senators to vote to convict.

I also don't think more evidence will help convince those that voted for Trump in 2016,  to NOT do so again.

All I'm hearing from these fools is "look at the economy".  

 

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Read the full articles of impeachment against Trump

 

"House Democrats announced two articles of impeachment–abuse of power and obstruction of Congress–against President Donald Trump on Monday.

The articles were unveiled after a series of hearings by the House Intelligence and the House Judiciary committees that featured witnesses who had knowledge of Trump’s dealings with Ukraine as well as legal scholars who provided viewpoints on the grounds for impeachment.

Democrats argue that Trump violated his oath of office by using his presidential authority to press Ukraine to investigate his political rivals....

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-the-full-articles-of-impeachment-against-trump

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Why Democrats sidelined Mueller in impeachment articles

The decision divided leadership and the rank and file — but the caucus ultimately felt it was the best move for political, legal and practical reasons.

".......House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler of New York made the case for an obstruction of justice impeachment article based on the Mueller report. Backing him up were Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Maryland and Majority Whip Jim Clyburn of South Carolina, the second- and third-ranking House Democrats, according to multiple sources.

But Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff of California opposed the move, as did House lawyers overseeing legal cases against the Trump administration, according to Democratic insiders. And their resistance aligned with Pelosi’s long-held private belief that the caucus should take a narrower focus.........

 

And Democrats are still connecting Mueller to impeachment — at least paying lip service to his investigation, even if they've largely kept it out of the articles themselves. Democrats intend to expound on Mueller’s evidence in a lengthy report that will accompany the articles of impeachment when they’re voted out of the Judiciary Committee later this week.

That report will spell out what Democrats allege is a “pattern” of impeachable conduct by Trump, beginning with his efforts to obstruct Mueller’s probe of Russian interference in the 2016 election. It will then suggest Trump committed an impeachable abuse of power when he pressured Ukraine to investigate his Democratic rivals ahead of the 2020 campaign.

The story of the House decision to exclude a standalone impeachment article on Mueller’s findings is a complicated one of internal jockeying among Democratic factions.........

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/10/democrats-sidelined-mueller-trump-impeachment-080910

:unsure:

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NOTE: The Senate impeachment trial will primarily be a vote on whether to abolish the Impeachment Clause of the Constitution
 
—because if a president can categorically deny Congress all witnesses and all documents whenever he feels like it,
 
there *is* no Impeachment Clause anymore........
 
NOTE4: So the question becomes, if what's at stake in the impeachment trial is no more or less than
(a) the U.S. remaining a democracy, and
(b) our elections remaining free and fair,
 
how much marching and protesting should Democrats and all patriotic Americans be doing right now?..........
 
NOTE7: So why do I support impeachment? And why do many of you? Because we want to live in a *democracy*.
 
We want our votes to matter.
And when a president acts like an autocrat, upends rule of law,
and destroys our electoral process, that president doesn't get to stay in office.
 
NOTE8: Republicans imply America will get ripped apart if our democracy and elections are protected. NO.
 
The result of IMPEACHMENT is Trump retires to start Trump TV and make—for the first time—billions,
and Pence becomes POTUS.
Does that thrill me? No—but it's the actual result.........
 
 
:unsure:
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House Republicans' Trump impeachment strategy is simple:

Distract, deceive and yell

GOP lawmakers have treated the hearings like Fox New segments, delivering loud, rambling monologues
in a deliberate attempt to wear down participants and viewers.
 
...... If they yell loud enough and long enough, what they say about the circumstances of this impeachment inquiry will become truth. Their calculation is that by yelling about anything and everything, the American people will either be convinced or at the very least so annoyed they’ll stop watching.
 
To the GOP, yelling seems to be both a demonstration of strength and a deliberate effort to wear down Democrats and any other Americans who care enough to tune in. .......
 
This isn’t an indication of passion or righteous anger. It is the manifestation of a decadelong marketing strategy that has kept them in the driving seat of Congress. ......
 
Republicans engaged in a parade of outbursts, mostly refusing to engage with the substance of the evidence presented by the House Intelligence Committee previously, instead trying to discredit the process.
Often, this meant members used their time to deliver loud, rambling monologues that contained few if any questions for the witnesses. .......

Their script is built on misdirection and moving the goal posts as their paltry strategy shifts to incorporate various conspiracy theories and outlandish claims. But ultimately, the overarching argument is that the entire process is circumspect. Republicans attack Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., they demand testimony from Hunter Biden, they attack and threaten whistleblowers and do everything possible to avoid asking questions of substance.

And as disingenuous as their tactics may be, they also could be working.....

Democrats let the GOP off the hook by refusing to address the rash of propaganda entering the public domain. ....

Republicans have observed that Democrats aren’t really willing to confront them directly, and the process of congressional hearings makes such confrontation difficult anyway. And so they will continue to yell. They will continue to scream. They will continue to lie. They will not stop. The only question is, what are Democrats prepared to do about it? Clearly, banging the gavel repeatedly isn’t enough. "

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/house-republicans-trump-impeachment-strategy-was-simple-distract-deceive-yell-ncna1100081?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

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Mitch McConnell:
 
Everything I do during this, I’m coordinating with White House Counsel. There will be no difference between the President’s position and our position as to how to handle this
======================================
 
 
I see.
So the jury foreman will coordinate with the defendant:
 
McConnell vows ‘total coordination’ with Trump on impeachment trial - New York Daily News
 
<_<
 
 
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Hey  Cid:  wonder what you think about S.C. Senator Lindsey Graham's statement about the Senate trial.    

I actually find it refreshing;   what I read there is:  impeachment and conviction are political processes,,,,  I'm going to play the politics, and that means,   have the House make their case to the Senate,  and then vote.    I'm voting to not-convict since I have reviewed the flimsy evidence and there isn't a case for removal.  That is my take.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-trump-impeachment-trial/index.html

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4 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Hey  Cid:  wonder what you think about S.C. Senator Lindsey Graham's statement about the Senate trial.    

I actually find it refreshing;   what I read there is:  impeachment and conviction are political processes,,,,  I'm going to play the politics, and that means,   have the House make their case to the Senate,  and then vote.    I'm voting to not-convict since I have reviewed the flimsy evidence and there isn't a case for removal.  That is my take.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-trump-impeachment-trial/index.html

Graham was one of the House leaders who worked to impeach Bill Clinton.  He was also one of the "prosecutors" from the House who presented the case to the Senate.  His position now is a complete 180.

Graham has always been a politician first and then whatever after that.  But since Trump took over the Republican party, he has really gone off the deep end.  Having to run for re-election in 2020 in a very Trump state is not helping any.   The absence of John McCain doesn't help any.

On the other hand he is just stating what most (all?) GOP senators believe.  Also, McConnell, Graham and others probably fear that if they open it up to witnesses, the Dems will bring in some heavy ones and the president will have to "release" his staff and others that have been subpoenaed but are not testifying.

Impeachment and trial are not political processes.  The Federalist Papers and many legal authorities have commented on that.  Naturally there is a political aspect since the senators are elected and represent parties.   Could say almost the same thing for the US Supreme Court and any court.

The senators are supposed to be unbiased and thorough, but that ain't going to happen here.  So, I see your point.

If you go back to Nixon, Republican senators went to him and told him that even Republican senators would vote for conviction and removal and the 2/3's would be easily met.  That is why he resigned.  Of course, those were different times.

 

 

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3 hours ago, TheCid said:

From what I have heard, he probably was going to lose the Dem Primary if he ran as a Dem again.

Drew won in 2018 with 52.9 percent in a NJ district that had gone republican for 11 terms (the GOP incumbent had retired).

As you note Drew was facing a very difficult Dem primary and if the had one that ,  a difficult General election.

I couldn't find anything about how he might do in a GOP primary,  but either way the seat is likely to go back to the GOP.

I.e. a race between two newbies or a Dem newbie against GOP Drew as an incumbent,  both  favor the GOP in this district. 

 

 

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