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Valerie Harper 1939-2019

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1 hour ago, BingFan said:

You're right that All In The Family was (potentially) more polarizing than Mary Tyler Moore.  There were definitely no conflicting views at my house when it came to MTM

But the fact that All In The Family showed both sides of the cultural divide in one household was what I think brought my family together when we watched it.  My parents were definitely conservative, and probably agreed with some of the stuff that Archie Bunker said -- although they never would have been so crude or rude about it.  At the same time, I thought Mike/Meathead and Gloria were pretty cool, trying to live according to more liberal values.  (I don't know for certain how my younger brothers viewed the characters, but I'd guess, based on their current politics, that the breakdown was the same -- one for Archie, the other for Mike and Gloria.) 

Despite these views, we all thought that Archie was pretty ridiculous, that Mike and Gloria probably went too far in arguing with him, and that Edith was practically a saint to put up with them.  It all added up to a lot of laughs from from my family that transcended our political/cultural views.

I'm not sugar-coating it because of nostalgic memories, although I could see how that would happen.  To tell you the truth, I'm really kind of surprised now when I think back on us all laughing together at Archie, Meathead, Gloria, and Edith, even though my parents loved Nixon as much as Archie did, and I had the opposite viewpoint.

I know we're going off on a tangent from Valerie Harper...but...

One thing we should mention is that All in the Family was adapted from a hit British sitcom called Till Death Do Us Part. I recently had a chance to watch a season's worth of episodes of this classic British program when it was added on Britbox. The cast is fantastic in it, and the four main characters are defined exactly as we see on AITF, meaning Norman Lear didn't really change anything. The central conflict in TDDUP is still between Alf (the Archie character) and his son-in-law Mike. Mike is from Liverpool and is a socialist layabout.

Alf with all his prejudices became a hugely popular character in British pop culture like Archie did a bit later in the U.S. TDDUP began in 1965 and ran until 1975. There was a movie with the main cast in 1969. And later, there was a spinoff, which was much like Lear's Archie Bunker's Place where Alf/Archie carries on after the wife dies. 

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For me, having not watched Mary Tyler Moore or Rhoda or any of the other 1970s shows during their original run, they are nostalgia for me. I discovered both MTM and Rhoda on Nick at Nite in middle school, in the mid-90s.  I never felt either MTM or Rhoda were controversial. I enjoyed them because they were funny.  I liked that both Mary and Rhoda had their own places to live, jobs, and the like.  For an 11 year old girl, seeing independent women was inspiring. Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda bring back memories of watching Nick at Nite every night, starting at 8 (save for Wednesdays, as that was '90210' night) and the 3-hour blocks of my favorite shows every summer during Nick at Nite's "Block Party Summer" marathon.  These old sitcoms (I Love Lucy, Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie, Mary Tyler Moore, Rhoda, The Brady Bunch, etc.) are my nostalgia.

While I loved The Brady Bunch, Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda, I very much disliked other 1970s programming, like All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Welcome Back Kotter, Taxi, etc. I hated All in the Family.  I quickly tired of Archie being such a jerk and Edith being so wishy washy and dingy. 

In the past few years, so many of my favorite Nick at Nite personalities have passed: Mary Tyler Moore, Rose Marie, Florence Henderson, Ann B. Davis, Bill Daily, Larry Hagman, Yvonne DeCarlo (yes, for the longest time I knew her as Lily Munster, I wasn't aware of her film career), Adam West, Yvonne Craig, Eddie Albert, so on... now losing Valerie Harper, another piece of my Nick at Nite childhood is gone. Regardless of the original reaction and controversy these shows may have had upon their original airing, I don't have that experience or memory. But I do remember when I discovered these shows. I remember when I used to watch them. That is the experience I look back on fondly. 

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6 hours ago, TopBilled said:

It would take a while before a network would actually green light a sitcom about an openly Jewish character played by a Jewish performer.

The earliest one I can think of at the moment-- Jackie Mason in Chicken Soup, from 1989.

Well, there was The Goldbergs that began in 1949...

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6 minutes ago, shutoo said:

Well, there was The Goldbergs that began in 1949...

I have only watched one or two episodes and can't remember much about them...were they allowed to be very Jewish? Or were they a generic sitcom family...?

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6 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

I have only watched one or two episodes...were they allowed to be very Jewish? Or were they watered down...?

They were very Jewish...but their lives were lived in primarily Jewish areas of the Bronx, and when they move to the suburbs, as well as their Catskill vacations, so the 'All in the Family' setup of 'oh, those Catholics next door' never came up.  The original neighborhood was probably very realistic in the way different areas of the city were populated mainly by one religion/ethnic group at that time.

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I've seen the first 4 seasons of MTM so often, not only do I know the lines, I know what they're going to wear in every episode.  Mary was just so off-the-rack safe...Rhoda had the real style..and it just got better as time went on and she went back to NYC

marrho

How Mary Tyler Moore Changed Fashion - The New York Times

Rhoda Morgensternâs Style

Related image

 

Rhoda Morgenstern - Google Search

some favorite Rhoda MTM moments I don't think have been mentioned:

Mary and Rhoda stay up all night writing obituaries, and can't stop laughing

Rhoda admits she's happy Mary lost out on an award, and they 'confess' jealousies

Rhoda surveying the merchandise at the boutique 'Shot Down in Ecuador, Jr'

and a whole lot more...

 

 

 

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The news of Valerie Harper's death hit me harder than I expected. I knew her health was declining when her husband recently posted on social media that her doctors recommended hospice care, but I guess somehow I thought (hoped) she would again defy the odds.

I discovered THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW and Valerie Harper as a kid during the glory days of Nick At Nite in the 1990s through the early 2000s. THE MTM SHOW and BEWITCHED were my two favorite shows although I loved  the channel in general (the retro graphics, the promos, the marathon programming). I have fond memories of watching THE MTM SHOW myself and with my grandmother, who saw the show (as well as Valerie Harper's spin-off RHODA) during its initial broadcast run. She remembered the hype surrounding the hour-long "Rhoda's Wedding" episode from the first season of RHODA (she had a copy of an old TV GUIDE featuring a full-page ad for the episode) and was surprised at how much I knew about THE MTM SHOW. especially my knowledge of the episode titles. She was disappointed when I informed her that Valerie Harper was not Jewish in real life. Later I bought the DVD sets of all seven seasons of THE MTM SHOW and discovered additional moments that were cut from the syndicated Nick At Nite airings (which I had recorded on VHS).

The past few days I have been watching my DVDs and revisiting some of my favorite episodes:

"Bob And Rhoda And Teddy And Mary" from Season 1: This is the first episode to feature the Teddy Awards. Rhoda's new boyfriend decides he likes Mary better. At the awards show, a mic glitch prevents Mary from hearing the winner in her category. Rhoda tells Mary she is the winner in order to see  Mary look foolish when she goes to accept the award. (This is also the episode that someone alluded to earlier where it's revealed that Rhoda earns more than Mary.)

"A Girl's Best Mother Is Not Her Friend" from Season 2: Rhoda's mother Ida visits from New York and wants to be  more of a friend. Favorite moment: Rhoda's reaction when her mother says she's not wearing a bra. In this episode we learn that Rhoda has a sister named Brenda who apparently lives in Chicago. Later in Season 4, Rhoda's only sibling will be a sister named Debbie, but when Rhoda  gets her spin-off series Brenda will again be her sister. In RHODA, Brenda never lived anywhere but New York City.

" . . .Is A Friend In Need" from Season 2 where Rhoda loses her job at Bloomfield Department Store and Mary feels guilty for not letting her know about an opening at WJM. By the end of the episode Rhoda has a new job at Hemple's and we learn that Rhoda now makes more than Mary. (Yes, another of those inconsistencies we often see in TV series.)

 "The Square-Shaped Room" from Season 2 where Lou Grant hires Rhoda to redecorate his living room. The studio audience applauds when the lights are turned on to reveal Rhoda's work (which is fantastic), but Lou hates it.

 "My Brother's Keeper" from Season 3 where Phyllis hopes her visiting brother will match with Mary, but he ends up spending more time Rhoda, to Phyllis's dismay. This is one of the first (if not the first) time the word "gay" was used on American television in the context of sexual orientation. To Phyllis's relieve, her brother is gay and will not be marrying Rhoda.

"The Lars Affair" from Season 4. Okay, this episode does not center around Rhoda, but this is one of my favorite episodes (possibly my favorite) from the entire series. There are some great Rhoda moments though, such as when she asks Phyllis how she's too much of real woman and when she lies about loving the awful pie that Phyllis has baked. This episode features the first appearance of  Sue Ann Nivens "The Happy Homemaker," wonderfully played by the great Betty White. 

Those are the episodes I've watched in the last couple of days. I will say that watching Valerie Harper as Rhoda again has brought me joy knowing that her legacy will live on.

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I think it's interesting that Valerie Harper played Rhoda Morgenstern longer than Mary Tyler Moore played Mary Richards.

Some stats:

Ed Asner as Lou Grant: 12 seasons, from 1970 to 1982.

Valerie Harper as Rhoda Morgenstern: 9 seasons, from 1970 to 1978.

Mary Tyler Moore as Mary Richards: 7 seasons, from 1970 to 1977.

Cloris Leachman as Phyllis Lindstrom: 7 seasons, from 1970 to 1977.

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Now how could anyone know that Wee Willy Williams would die the next day?

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The highest rated episode of Rhoda on the IMDb is the second season episode "Friends and Mothers" guest-starring Vivian Vance:

Screen Shot 2019-09-03 at 9.50.33 PM.jpeg

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WOW. I'd heard she was ill again, but hadn't heard this at all. And I watched the network news that night too! Hoping someone will be running a MTM marathon this coming wknd. (wasn't a fan of Rhoda past the first season).

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19 hours ago, CinemaInternational said:

I've read a book on the making of the Mary Tyler Moore Show, the time it was on the air, and the aftereffects on cast and crew. CBS seemingly had a few rules in 1970: a show musn't be about a divorcee, musn't be set in New York, and musn't be completely about a Jewish character (which is highly anti-Semetic). Rhoda broke all those rules just a few years later on the same network......

CBS was worried viewers would think Mary divorced Dick Van Dyke and nixed the idea of MTM being a divorcee. (Ridiculous)

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I’m one of those “once a fan, always a fan” people, and even though all her best work was decades ago, I still loved Valerie Harper and was surprisingly saddened by her death (even though I had read of her health issues).  I truly feel that Rhoda Morganstern was one of THE greatest sitcom characters of all time, and Valerie played her to perfection.  On Mary’s show, she was (with the exception of Vivian Vance on “I Love Lucy”) the greatest female sidekick of all time.  I am old enough to have watched the MTM show in its original run, and a few years ago I rewatched the entire series on DVD, and boy did it hold up beautifully.  Such a fantastic cast and brilliant writing.  I will say, though, that after she left I always missed the Rhoda character.  The “Rhoda” show was good, too, although after the first 2 seasons it seemed to flounder a bit.  Still, it had wonderful Julie Kavner and Nancy Walker, and I like the fact that Rhoda was allowed to evolve into a more multi-faceted character.

On a side note, did anyone else find it a bit odd that there were no remarks or testimonials (unless I missed them) from Cloris Leachman, Betty White, Gavin MacLeod or Julie Kavner?

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19 minutes ago, Nightbird311 said:

On a side note, did anyone else find it a bit odd that there were no remarks or testimonials (unless I missed them) from Cloris Leachman, Betty White, Gavin MacLeod or Julie Kavner?

These days unless one uses Twitter,  the MSM will not cover it.

 

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34 minutes ago, Nightbird311 said:

I’m one of those “once a fan, always a fan” people, and even though all her best work was decades ago, I still loved Valerie Harper and was surprisingly saddened by her death (even though I had read of her health issues).  I truly feel that Rhoda Morganstern was one of THE greatest sitcom characters of all time, and Valerie played her to perfection.  On Mary’s show, she was (with the exception of Vivian Vance on “I Love Lucy”) the greatest female sidekick of all time.  I am old enough to have watched the MTM show in its original run, and a few years ago I rewatched the entire series on DVD, and boy did it hold up beautifully.  Such a fantastic cast and brilliant writing.  I will say, though, that after she left I always missed the Rhoda character.  The “Rhoda” show was good, too, although after the first 2 seasons it seemed to flounder a bit.  Still, it had wonderful Julie Kavner and Nancy Walker, and I like the fact that Rhoda was allowed to evolve into a more multi-faceted character.

On a side note, did anyone else find it a bit odd that there were no remarks or testimonials (unless I missed them) from Cloris Leachman, Betty White, Gavin MacLeod or Julie Kavner?

Gavin McLeod released a statement, as did Joyce Bulifant. I also read a statement from James L. Brooks. 

It took Betty a few days to release a statement when MTM passed.  

I don't think it's fair to question anyone for not making a tribute or statement of some kind, everyone grieves in different ways. 

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12 hours ago, HoldenIsHere said:

The past few days I have been watching my DVDs and revisiting some of my favorite episodes:

"Bob And Rhoda And Teddy And Mary" from Season 1: This is the first episode to feature the Teddy Awards. Rhoda's new boyfriend decides he likes Mary better. At the awards show, a mic glitch prevents Mary from hearing the winner in her category. Rhoda tells Mary she is the winner in order to see  Mary look foolish when goes to accept the award. (This is also the episode that someone alluded to earlier where it's revealed that Rhoda earns more than Mary.)

"A Girl's Best Mother Is Not Her Friend" from Season 2: Rhoda's mother Ida visits from New York and wants to be  more of a friend. Favorite moment: Rhoda's reaction when her mother says she's not wearing a bra. In this episode we learn that Rhoda has a sister named Brenda who apparently lives in Chicago. Later in Season 4, Rhoda's only sibling will be a sister named Debbie, but when Rhoda  gets her spin-off series Brenda will again be her sister. In RHODA, Brenda never lived anywhere but New York City.

" . . .Is A Friend In Need" from Season 2 where Rhoda loses her job at Bloomfield Department Store and Mary feels guilty for not letting her know about an opening at WJM. By the end of the episode Rhoda has a new job at Hemple's and we learn that Rhoda now makes more than Mary. (Yes, another of those inconsistencies we often see in TV series.)

 "The Square-Shaped Room" from Season 2 where Lou Grant hires Rhoda to redecorate his living room. The studio audience applauds when the lights are turned on to reveal Rhoda's work (which is fantastic), but Lou hates it.

 "My Brother's Keeper" from Season 3 where Phyllis hopes her visiting brother will match with Mary, but he ends up spending more time Rhoda, to Phyllis's dismay. This is one of the first (if not the first) time the word "gay" was used on American television in the context of sexual orientation. To Phyllis's relieve, her brother is gay and will not be marrying Rhoda.

"The Lars Affair" from Season 4. Okay, this episode does not center around Rhoda, but this is one of my favorite episodes (possibly my favorite) from the entire series. There are some great Rhoda moments though, such as when she asks Phyllis how she's too much of real woman and when she lies about loving the awful pie that Phyllis has baked. This episode features the first appearance of the Sue Ann Nivens "The Happy Homemaker," wonderfully played by the great Betty White. 

Those are the episodes I've watched in the last couple of days. I will say that watching Valerie Harper as Rhoda again has brought me joy knowing that her legacy will live on.

Holden, I know from previous conversations that you and I have the roughly the same experience watching the old shows on the 90s iteration of Nick at Nite.  I also loved all the retro graphics and jingles.  Like I said earlier, Nick at Nite is where I discovered Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda

I also watched some "Rhoda" episodes of Mary Tyler Moore in honor of Valerie Harper.

-"Rhoda the Beautiful," I love this episode because it's the first time that Rhoda is able to see herself as who she really is--a beautiful, confident woman. 

-"Lou's Second Date," everyone thinks that Lou and Rhoda are an "item" after they go out together a couple of times.  I really like this episode.  I like the pairing of Rhoda and Lou. 

-"Angels in the Snow," not a Rhoda episode per se, but I love the rapport between Rhoda and Mary while shopping at Shot Down in Ecuador Jr, the young 20-something shop that Mary decides to go into. Mary's pants btw are hideous.  If MTM can't make those look good, nobody can. 

-"A Girl's Best Mother is Not Her Friend," I love the scenes between Rhoda and her mother, Ida.  The funniest two scenes in this episode, imo, is when Rhoda shows up to lunch and finds that she's wearing the same dress as Ida (and not a plain, non-flashy dress) and later when Rhoda chastises Ida for not wearing a bra. 

I love the "Square-Shaped Room" that you mentioned.  The room is definitely bright and wouldn't be my style either.  The room is beautifully decorated, but not decorated with Mr. Grant in mind. I love his tirade about the 5 poster.  I also like when he says with disdain, "I'm walking around the rug." 

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Hi Speedracer.  Of course you’re right in that everyone does grieve differently.  I just thought it a little odd.  I thought Valerie and Cloris were particularly close friends (and of course that could be the very reason Leachman didn’t release a statement).  Sometimes, I think, those kinds of statements can seem to be a little self-serving.  I thought Ed Asner’s statement was lovely though.

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1 hour ago, speedracer5 said:

 

-"Angels in the Snow," not a Rhoda episode per se, but I love the rapport between Rhoda and Mary while shopping at Shot Down in Ecuador Jr, the young 20-something shop that Mary decides to go into. Mary's pants btw are hideous.  If MTM can't make those look good, nobody can. 

 

I'd say Rhoda played a pretty big role in this one and had some of her best lines in it....

"I wonder if shy people shop here" (said while holding up a sheer, see-through pair of pants)

"12 years ago, I was sitting at a party like this, drinking wine out of a paper cup like this. You've come a long way baby"

(over snow angels which Mary tried to justify by saying "Come on they did it in Love Story!") "great. Maybe somebody will mistake me for Ali Macgraw: Terminal but Cute."

"If the wine has a cute name, he's under 30." (over Peter Strauss's age) Reads the label aloud "Granny's Apple Pizazz"

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1 hour ago, Nightbird311 said:

Hi Speedracer.  Of course you’re right in that everyone does grieve differently.  I just thought it a little odd.  I thought Valerie and Cloris were particularly close friends (and of course that could be the very reason Leachman didn’t release a statement).  Sometimes, I think, those kinds of statements can seem to be a little self-serving.  I thought Ed Asner’s statement was lovely though.

I could see Leachman and White both needing time to process Valerie's passing.  Even with knowing that Val hadn't been doing well for quite some time, it doesn't make the loss hurt any less. When MTM passed, it took Val a little bit of time to craft her own statement. I also think that Ed Asner has more of a social media presence than his co-stars. 

When Luke Perry passed, two of his co-stars (Jennie Garth and Brian Austin Green) were criticized by persons on Twitter for not posting a tribute to Perry.  Garth and Green have since released statements, but I found it very disheartening that random people on the internet would criticize two of Perry's friends for not releasing "tributes" and implying that they didn't care. 

Oftentimes, I find many of the online "tributes" (not necessarily related to someone's passing) to famous and non-famous persons, to be very contrived and self-righteous--much like at least 50% of social media. There are of course, genuine tributes, such as Ed Asner's, that are very sweet to read.  I think people get upset when they're a fan of someone's and they feel that they're not being recognized properly.  It provides people with a sense of validation for their love of someone. When in reality, while they were a big fan of someone's, they probably weren't closely acquainted with someone to really feel what the deceased's family and friends are experiencing. 

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7 hours ago, speedracer5 said:

Holden, I know from previous conversations that you and I have the roughly the same experience watching the old shows on the 90s iteration of Nick at Nite.  I also loved all the retro graphics and jingles.  Like I said earlier, Nick at Nite is where I discovered Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda

I also watched some "Rhoda" episodes of Mary Tyler Moore in honor of Valerie Harper.

-"Rhoda the Beautiful," I love this episode because it's the first time that Rhoda is able to see herself as who she really is--a beautiful, confident woman. 

-"Lou's Second Date," everyone thinks that Lou and Rhoda are an "item" after they go out together a couple of times.  I really like this episode.  I like the pairing of Rhoda and Lou. 

-"Angels in the Snow," not a Rhoda episode per se, but I love the rapport between Rhoda and Mary while shopping at Shot Down in Ecuador Jr, the young 20-something shop that Mary decides to go into. Mary's pants btw are hideous.  If MTM can't make those look good, nobody can. 

-"A Girl's Best Mother is Not Her Friend," I love the scenes between Rhoda and her mother, Ida.  The funniest two scenes in this episode, imo, is when Rhoda shows up to lunch and finds that she's wearing the same dress as Ida (and not a plain, non-flashy dress) and later when Rhoda chastises Ida for not wearing a bra. 

I love the "Square-Shaped Room" that you mentioned.  The room is definitely bright and wouldn't be my style either.  The room is beautifully decorated, but not decorated with Mr. Grant in mind. I love his tirade about the 5 poster.  I also like when he says with disdain, "I'm walking around the rug." 

Yes, we both had similar Nick At Nite childhood experiences and have many of the same favorite shows. We may even have some of the same not-so-favorites. I hated HAPPY DAYS!  I wasn't a big fan of ALL IN THE FAMILY although I wouldn't say I hated it. 

I also love the "Rhoda The Beautiful" episode. My favorite part is Phyllis's re-creation of the "Ten Cents A Dance" number that won her the talent portion of a beauty contest that she once competed in. She practically twists Mary's arm to get her to ask her to perform then bursts into the number while Mary and Rhoda basically ignore her as they look for clothes for Rhoda's upcoming Ms. Hemple contest.

Another great line from  "A Girl's Best Mother is Not Her Friend" is Ida's response when Rhoda tells her she has seriously dated men who weren't Jewish: "No you haven't!"

RE the "5" poster in "The Square-Shaped Room": LOU: "I'll bet she went through four other paintings before she chose that one!"

 

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17 minutes ago, HoldenIsHere said:

Yes, we both had similar Nick At Nite childhood experiences and have many of the same favorite shows. We may even have some of the same not-so-favorites. I hated HAPPY DAYS!  I wasn't a big fan of ALL IN THE FAMILY although I wouldn't say I hated it. 

I also love the "Rhoda The Beautiful" episode. My favorite part is Phyllis's re-creation of the "Ten Cents A Dance" number that won her the talent portion of a beauty contest that she once competed in. She practically twists Mary's arm to get her to ask her to perform then bursts into the number while Mary and Rhoda basically ignore her as they look for clothes for Rhoda's upcoming Ms. Hemple contest.

Another great line from  "A Girl's Best Mother is Not Her Friend" is Ida's response when Rhoda tells her she has seriously dated men who weren't Jewish: "No you haven't!"

RE the "5" poster in "The Square-Shaped Room": LOU: "I'll bet she went through four other paintings before she chose that one!"

 

I wasn’t the biggest fan of “Happy Days” either, but it was tolerable with Ritchie. Once Ritchie and Ralph Malph left, and Chachi had a bigger role, I was done with the show. I liked the episodes with Pinky and Leather Tuscadero. 

 

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A beautiful woman, a wonderful actress, a great friend and with balls bigger than mine. Her brilliance burst through and shined its light upon all of us. Goodnight beautiful. I’ll see you soon.

valerie-harper-ed-asner-emmys-ftr.jpg

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On 9/4/2019 at 12:42 AM, TopBilled said:

Valerie's style changed by the 4th and 5th seasons of Rhoda:

 

That's a nice intro but "Kate & Allie" was actually filmed in NYC! Another great duo and episode.  All about the election of 1984.

 

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