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I mostly like to learn about the process and how films were made. I always watch any silent movies that crop up, and I love to learn the innovations and techniques involved. It's just me. I've also learned that there were some kinda lousy silent movies. Just like there were lousy talkies. As always, it's a matter of opinion. Aesthetics differ, and I will defend your right to like anything you want. I do wish we could take race out of the discussion as much as we can. I know it is important to recognize that it was (and sometimes is) an issue. I think if race is no longer made the issue, it'll stop being an issue.  I don't care what color you are. I didn't know Jewish was a race, I thought it was a religion. Once again, I just don't care. Just be a nice person. I think we are perpetuating the problem. Like picking at a sore. Let's leave it out of the discussion unless it's pertinent to the movie. Just my opinion, and I don't know much. I do enjoy a nice film and nice people.

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Well now, you opened a can of worms (and gave some personal TMI besides) in your stating that "Jewish" is a "race".  When essentially, Jews are basically those who practice Judaism,  a Middle Eastern religion adopted by Hebrews  around the second millenia BCE.  Or, a couple millenia before Christ.  Usually referred to as an "Ethnoreligious" group, as nationhood and religion are closely interrelated.  And Judaism's followers aren't strictly limited to any particular "race", as my self and many of my familial  predecessors are/were Jewish, and Polish by national origins.  In fact, many Jewish could be found in all European nations.  My family were of a "strain"  or "branch" known as ASHKENAZIC.   But that's just small potatoes in the big picture.

I do agree with your assessment that consistent/insistent conjuring up of race in discussions as "picking at a sore".  And some people are so stuck on it that they perceive racism in places it doesn't or never has existed.  Or intended.   One example( and amusing to me) was when I worked at GM's Cadillac plant when it was in Detroit, a black co-worker often accused me of being a "racist" because it was clear to him I really didn't like him much.  He asked me once, "You don't like me because I'm BLACK, right?"  And I, to be truthful, answered, "No.  I don't like you because you're an A**HOLE!"   "Color don't figure into it."  ;)   He left me alone after that.   

As a long photographic hobbyist, I too am interested in many filming techniques and cinematography in general, and many times I might like a movie based mostly to only it's cinematography in general.  It's still not settled if my interest in photography was sparked by some of the stark Black&White cinematography seen in early movies or  the other way around.   Will enjoy learning more of your thoughts on this.   And WELCOME to these boards!  :)

Sepiatone

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I was curious what prompted the OP's post last night, and I'm guessing since he specifically mentions silent movies that there may have been some talk in the wraparound host segments for Metropolis. I didn't watch it, so maybe someone else can verify it. They may have mentioned the rising anti-Semitic sentiment in Germany when Metropolis was made, and how some feel it was reflected in the film.

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7 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Well now, you opened a can of worms (and gave some personal TMI besides) in your stating that "Jewish" is a "race".  When essentially, Jews are basically those who practice Judaism,  a Middle Eastern religion adopted by Hebrews  around the second millenia BCE.  Or, a couple millenia before Christ.  Usually referred to as an "Ethnoreligious" group, as nationhood and religion are closely interrelated.  And Judaism's followers aren't strictly limited to any particular "race", as my self and many of my familial  predecessors are/were Jewish, and Polish by national origins.  In fact, many Jewish could be found in all European nations.  My family were of a "strain"  or "branch" known as ASHKENAZIC.   But that's just small potatoes in the big picture.

What I said was that I didn't know Jewish was a race. People talk about the Jewish race, and it doesn't make sense. I kind of thought race had something to do with physical attributes. I dunno. The emphasis on silent movies is because it seems that more attention was paid to the photography  in the beginning.  We were learning how to use the medium, and the film itself was evolving. I just want to enjoy without sore picking, or politics, or pretend outrage. And to learn more about film. 

Also, I didn't watch Metropolis either. I have seen it over 100 times, and didn't care for the new soundtrack.

 

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1 minute ago, Application User said:

 

What I said was that I didn't know Jewish was a race. People talk about the Jewish race, and it doesn't make sense. I kind of thought race had something to do with physical attributes. I dunno. The emphasis on silent movies is because it seems that more attention was paid to the photography  in the beginning.  We were learning how to use the medium, and the film itself was evolving. I just want to enjoy without **** picking, or politics, or pretend outrage. And to learn more about film. 

Also, I didn't watch Metropolis either. I have seen it over 100 times, and didn't care for the new soundtrack.

Are you referring to some specific comments made by someone? What prompted the original post?

 

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Sepiatone should have been quoted at the beginning of my statement if that's what you mean. You referenced Metropolis, and I just wanted to answer quickly.  The comment is because of the discussions on either side of some films about racial issues. I get it, but sometimes it seems excessive. I just watch TCM to see the films and learn a little. 

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3 hours ago, Application User said:

 

What I said was that I didn't know Jewish was a race. People talk about the Jewish race, and it doesn't make sense. I kind of thought race had something to do with physical attributes. I dunno. The emphasis on silent movies is because it seems that more attention was paid to the photography  in the beginning.  We were learning how to use the medium, and the film itself was evolving. I just want to enjoy without sore picking, or politics, or pretend outrage. And to learn more about film. 

Also, I didn't watch Metropolis either. I have seen it over 100 times, and didn't care for the new soundtrack.

 

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In the nineteenth century nationality or ethnicity was often referred to as race. People would speak of the "German race" or the "French race." The 19th century French literary critic Hippolyte Taine discussed literary works according to the formula "race, moment, milieu" where race basically meant nationality.

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2 hours ago, kingrat said:
6 hours ago, Application User said:
 

In the nineteenth century nationality or ethnicity was often referred to as race. People would speak of the "German race" or the "French race." The 19th century French literary critic Hippolyte Taine discussed literary works according to the formula "race, moment, milieu" where race basically meant nationality.

Thank you! I seem to have some vague awareness of this practice, but I know not from where. That's how we learn!

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Here's something on the subject I often bring up whenever discussions go this direction.  And it did much to shape my personal outlook on the matter----

Back in 1968, cartoonist AL CAPP( Li'l Abner")  was notable for lecturing on the college campus circuit.  He often took a conservative point, usually on matters of the current behavior of  college students at that time.  One night, he was a guest on JOHNNY CARSON's "Tonight" show.  Carson took the opportunity to pass out cards to the audience which they could write down any questions they might have for Mr. Capp.  He would then read the questions off the cards so Capp could answer.  One question was:

"How do you feel about interracial marriages?"  

Al Capp looked perplexed and answered, "Interracial marriages?   I'm afraid I'm not aware of any.  All marriages I  know of involve members of the HUMAN RACE!"  ;) 

'Nuff said!

Sepiatone

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On 4/17/2020 at 12:08 AM, Application User said:

I mostly like to learn about the process and how films were made. I always watch any silent movies that crop up, and I love to learn the innovations and techniques involved. It's just me. I've also learned that there were some kinda lousy silent movies. Just like there were lousy talkies. As always, it's a matter of opinion. Aesthetics differ, and I will defend your right to like anything you want. I do wish we could take race out of the discussion as much as we can. I know it is important to recognize that it was (and sometimes is) an issue. I think if race is no longer made the issue, it'll stop being an issue.  I don't care what color you are. I didn't know Jewish was a race, I thought it was a religion. Once again, I just don't care. Just be a nice person. I think we are perpetuating the problem. Like picking at a sore. Let's leave it out of the discussion unless it's pertinent to the movie. Just my opinion, and I don't know much. I do enjoy a nice film and nice people.

 

Could had started the discussion with that alone without mentioning race. 

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On 4/19/2020 at 12:09 AM, hamradio said:

 

Could had started the discussion with that alone without mentioning race. 

Is that really possible?       I believe that is the overall point the OP is making but about TCM:   That TCM (well their hosts and guest hosts) can't have a discussion about 'movies and how they are made' without bringing in race.    The irony here is that he brought in race.    But to be fair to him,  this is why I asked 'is that really possible' as in NOT bringing in race since 'everybody is doing so now'.

You should understand this more than anyone at this forum since others often, (and unfairly IMO),   accused you of bringing in race when it is them that are doing so.   

 

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As I wrote in the past tony Curtis blurted out to Osborne once that Mitchum didn't want to be in THE DEFIANT ONES because of co starring with a black guy

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1 hour ago, spence said:

As I wrote in the past tony Curtis blurted out to Osborne once that Mitchum didn't want to be in THE DEFIANT ONES because of co starring with a black guy

Are you sure about that?

I was listening to this interview in the hospital, as my mother was recovering from surgery. And maybe I didn't hear it correctly.

But it seems like he said Kirk Douglas had also been offered the part and turned it down.  Do you remember the reasoning behind that one?

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5 minutes ago, Princess of Tap said:

Are you sure about that?

I just watched the footage, which was posted on the thread about the at-home version of the festival, and he does indeed say that. Although he quickly follows that up with a string of anecdotes about other stars making outrageous statements, and then he says those stars were kidding. But it did sound like he was being serious about Mitchum.

Anyway, it's over on the other thread if you want to listen again for yourself.

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8 minutes ago, Princess of Tap said:

Are you sure about that?

I was listening to this interview in the hospital, as my mother was recovering from surgery. And maybe I didn't hear it correctly.

But it seems like he said Kirk Douglas had also been offered the part and turned it down.  Do you remember the reasoning behind that one?

It's my understanding that Mitchum said that a white and black prisoner would never be chained together so thought the premise of the film a phony one.

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Reading the last few posts jogged my memory about the Looney Tunes cartoon parody "D'FIGHTIN' ONES" with Sylvester the Cat and a bulldog chained together and trying to escape from The Law and each other.

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1 hour ago, Princess of Tap said:

Are you sure about that?

I was listening to this interview in the hospital, as my mother was recovering from surgery. And maybe I didn't hear it correctly.

But it seems like he said Kirk Douglas had also been offered the part and turned it down.  Do you remember the reasoning behind that one?

as many on here know I don't want to discusss k. douglas though, but never heard that one?

how is your mother?

I do know SINATRA desperately wanted that role & many more including ON THE WATERFRONT, BRANDO'S ROLE IN GUYS & DOLLS OF SKY MASTERSON,  THE HUSTLER, SOME LIKE IT HOT IN CURTIS' ROLE & LA CAGE AUX FOLLES OF ALL THINGS!

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2 hours ago, Princess of Tap said:

But it seems like he said Kirk Douglas had also been offered the part and turned it down.  Do you remember the reasoning behind that one?

As a  joke he said Douglas would do it  only if he could play both parts. 

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2 hours ago, spence said:

as many on here know I don't want to discusss k. douglas though, but never heard that one?

how is your mother?

I do know SINATRA desperately wanted that role & many more including ON THE WATERFRONT, BRANDO'S ROLE IN GUYS & DOLLS OF SKY MASTERSON,  THE HUSTLER, SOME LIKE IT HOT IN CURTIS' ROLE & LA CAGE AUX FOLLES OF ALL THINGS!

Spence--You're so very kind to ask about my mother. She passed away several years ago, but did very well after that gallbladder surgery at 95--because she lived to be 100!

Spence, I've been meaning to ask you about your mother, because it sounds like  she was a tap dance studio instructor? Did I get that right? Didn't you mention something about the Rockettes too?

I grew up in a tap dance studio from the age of 3. It was my place to go to after school.

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23 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Is that really possible?       I believe that is the overall point the OP is making but about TCM:   That TCM (well their hosts and guest hosts) can't have a discussion about 'movies and how they are made' without bring.ing in race    The irony here is that he brought in race.    But to be fair to him,  this is why I asked 'is that really possible' as in NOT bringing in race since 'everybody is doing so now'.

You should understand this more than anyone at this forum since others often, (and unfairly IMO),   accused you of bringing in race when it is them that are doing so.   

 

And that's something I've never noticed.  I mean, I've heard several discussions by hosts and their guests about how movies are made with NO references to "race" being brought up.  Unless somehow race was pertinent to a particular film being discussed.    Like maybe, PINKY, or IMITATION OF LIFE or whatever.  

As for all the stuff about casting THE DEFIANT ONES, here's what WIKI had on that.  Kinda interesting....

Robert Mitchum, a veteran of a Southern chain gang, turned down the role of Jackson because blacks and whites would never be chained together in the segregated South. The story was corrupted into the claim - repeated by Curtis and others - that Mitchum refused to work with a black man. Kramer wrote that Poitier was initially unsure of Curtis' casting but became supportive. Curtis, however, denied this; he stated that he had contractual rights to approve who would play Cullen. However, despite Curtis' many later claims and stories, Kramer had originally cast Poitier and Marlon Brando as the two leads when a previous contractual obligation prevented Poitier from being able to accept the role. Kramer wanted Poitier for the role so badly that he delayed the film's production, which led to Brando having to decline because the delay caused shooting to overlap with another obligation he had. Curtis was cast afterwards. Curtis did request Poitier's name appear with his above the movie title marking a first for Poitier in his career.[3][4]:30, 280–281[5]

Carl "Alfalfa" Switzer, of the Our Gang comedies, has a small role. It was his last before his death

Sepiatone

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1 hour ago, Sepiatone said:

And that's something I've never noticed.  I mean, I've heard several discussions by hosts and their guests about how movies are made with NO references to "race" being brought up.  Unless somehow race was pertinent to a particular film being discussed.    Like maybe, PINKY, or IMITATION OF LIFE or whatever.  

I wasn't saying I felt that TCM hosts and guest host mentioned 'race' to much,   only that this is a perception I have seen others express at this forum.   (as well as the HUCA).

I assume you saw the post related to Ava Duvernay (used to host The Essentials)  as well as those about current Silent Sunday Night host Jacqueline Stewart. 

 

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"Race", you say?

Well, just for one instance, how can you possibly bring up the subject of John Frankenheimer's Grand Prix without talkin' about this, I ask?!

NOT to mention that flick from last year, Ford v Ferrari ???

(...sorry, couldn't resist...hey, they can't all be knee-slappers here, ya know)

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