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Gone with the Wind…GONE!


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18 hours ago, Dargo said:

TB, sorry but I have to say your recent comments directed to Cid and any intentions and/or motives he might have for questioning the appropriateness of censoring or banning GWTW, I found to be very INappropriate, and especially the following line you posted:

"You know the conservatives are losing the war on political correctness so you have to bandy the old "censorship" argument to uphold archaic views of racism. It's not working."

Nope, sorry dude, but I've never EVER gotten the idea that Cid holds any "archaic views of racism" in his heart. Nope, and in fact I always gotten the idea that he holds one of the more liberal mindsets in all of where he lives, that very conservative state of South Carolina.

And also please consider the thought that to view a movie wherein the institution of slavery is depicted, and be it depicted in a historically accurate manner or not (and once again a reminder here: Never get your History from Hollywood movies, and so mostly and with rare exceptions, movies do NOT) does not and never has defined such a  person as one who would accept such a social order in their own lives or find it desirable at all.

(...nope, sorry TB, but I think that line was very presumptuous on your part, and I think you're more capable to debate someone better than in that manner)

Dargo,

Sorry for the delayed reply. I was not dismissing or ignoring your comment. I had simply forgot which thread it was on, since we have multiple GWTW threads and it took me awhile to find this particular comment.

I think you're being a bit "harsh." Also you are assuming that I was making a personal jab at Cid. The You in my earlier remark was a General You in regards to conservatives in general that try to find a leg to stand on (in this case censorship) to support expressions of racism.

Also I think you are going out on a limb speaking so specifically on Cid's behalf. Why not let him speak for himself? He's obviously a conservative, so I find it interesting that you are defending a conservative given how liberal you've been on a host of issues in the forum over the years.

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1 hour ago, TheCid said:

My interpretation (and I believe the correct one) of all of TB's early posts indicate that HE wants GWTW not shown or censored by having wraparounds.  As I said HE wants censorship.   This is not "self-censorship" by TCM, HBO, etc.

An educational wraparound would not be censorship.  

Censorship would be someone snipping out all of Mammy's scenes and Prissy's scenes in GWTW to remove representations of slavery in the movie. 

But a warning or disclaimer that the film may be offensive to some groups because of its stereotypical and skewed depiction of African Americans is certainly do-able. Again, a woke audience would not object to that. 

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2 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Of course there are people with different POV.     To me that isn't as relevant as what one does or does NOT do,  based on their POV.

E.g. would you boycott TCM IF they started to have these 'wraparounds'?      That is really at the heart of the question for the management of a content provider like TCM.

How many people with a given POV will NOT using their product?       Note that those that are offended have said they will boycott,   but generally people that disagree with the need for wraparounds will NOT  boycott.      Thus it should be easy to understand why management could concede and include wraparounds.

Again,    capitalism \ supply and demand.

 

Would TCM have a way to tally the objections to wraparounds for GWTW that warn audiences about its racism..?

Maybe TCM would be able to count those in support of such wraparounds. But I don't think TCM produces wraparounds for most viewers' approval or disapproval. They simply use the host's commentary to preface a film in an educational way. And because of where were are today on the larger issue of race relations, any new wraparound filmed for GWTW would have to reference the controversial depiction of slaves in the movie. There is no way they could ignore it at this point, that is if they insist on airing the movie.

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ATLANTA (AP) _ The film classic ″Gone With The Wind″ will run every day in a new movie theater because it’s the favorite movie of the theater’s owner - TV and sports magnate Ted Turner. 

Turner also happens to be owner of ″Gone With The Wind″ itself; it’s one of the movies in the MGM film library he bought last year. The 1939 film will be shown daily in the CNN Cinema 6, which opens Friday. 

″Ted finally has his own theater, and he can show his own favorite movie two times a day, 365 days a year,″ said Alex Swan, a spokesman for Turner Broadcasting System. 📽️

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4 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

Would TCM have a way to tally the objections to wraparounds for GWTW that warn audiences about its racism..?

Maybe TCM would be able to count those in support of such wraparounds. But I don't think TCM produces wraparounds for most viewers' approval or disapproval. They simply use the host's commentary to preface a film in an educational way. And because of where were are today on the larger issue of race relations, any new wraparound filmed for GWTW would have to reference the controversial depiction of slaves in the movie. There is no way they could ignore it at this point, that is if they insist on airing the movie.

I don't think there is a way for a content provider to determine (measure),    minor disqualification with their product offerings other then surveys,   letters and on-line communication (and the latter two are full of bias).        In addition TCM and HBO are generally commercial free so they don't receive sponsorship feedback (which is typically the most influential).

 

 

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Just now, JeanneCrain said:

ATLANTA (AP) _ The film classic ″Gone With The Wind″ will run every day in a new movie theater because it’s the favorite movie of the theater’s owner - TV and sports magnate Ted Turner. 

Turner also happens to be owner of ″Gone With The Wind″ itself; it’s one of the movies in the MGM film library he bought last year. The 1939 film will be shown daily in the CNN Cinema 6, which opens Friday. 

″Ted finally has his own theater, and he can show his own favorite movie two times a day, 365 days a year,″ said Alex Swan, a spokesman for Turner Broadcasting System. 📽️

Thank goodness he no longer has control over what TCM programmers put on the air. TCM's programming department is decidedly liberal, which is a fortunate thing. The bigots and racists can go to Atlanta and be Ted's guests.

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11 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

An educational wraparound would not be censorship.  

Censorship would be someone snipping out all of Mammy's scenes and Prissy's scenes in GWTW to remove representations of slavery in the movie. 

But a warning or disclaimer that the film may be offensive to some groups because of its stereotypical and skewed depiction of African Americans is certainly do-able. Again, a woke audience would not object to that. 

This may be too broad for your viewpoint, but the wraparounds are de facto censorship.  They alter the content of the movie.  As I said on your thread, who will do the wraparounds?  Would it be a panel taking 30 minutes to comment and expalin?  Would the UDC, SCV, SHA, etc. be permitted on the panel?

You seem to be implying that a "woke audience" includes everybody.  Not sure that is the case, just as a liberal or conservative or progressive, etc. audience would not include everybody.

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1 minute ago, TheCid said:

This may be too broad for your viewpoint, but the wraparounds are de facto censorship.  They alter the content of the movie.  As I said on your thread, who will do the wraparounds?  Would it be a panel taking 30 minutes to comment and expalin?  Would the UDC, SCV, SHA, etc. be permitted on the panel?

You seem to be implying that a "woke audience" includes everybody.  Not sure that is the case, just as a liberal or conservative or progressive, etc. audience would not include everybody.

Wraparounds do not alter the content. The content is independent of what people say for or against it. 

What the wraparounds do alter is context with an 'x' and public opinion. Which I am sure would threaten racist conservatives, because they are now being challenged out in the open.

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Why a wraparound at all?  Why not a screen shot at beginning stating that GWTW contains scenes of racial discrimination, slavery and violence.   It also presents views of slavery that are not historically accurate.

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Just now, TheCid said:

Why a wraparound at all?  Why not a screen shot at beginning stating that GWTW contains scenes of racial discrimination, slavery and violence.   It also presents views of slavery that are not historically accurate.

That would be a start in the right direction. But it is not enough.

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Just now, TopBilled said:

Wraparounds do not alter the content. The content is independent of what people say for or against it. 

What the wraparounds do alter is context with an 'x' and public opinion. Which I am sure would threaten racist conservatives, because they are now being challenged out in the open.

Then we need a wraparound for every movie shown on TCM.  Commentary telling the viewers how to perceive what they are about to see or have seen is de facto censorship.

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Just now, TheCid said:

Why a wraparound at all?  Why not a screen shot at beginning stating that GWTW contains scenes of racial discrimination, slavery and violence.   It also presents views of slavery that are not historically accurate.

Why can't you try to understand the POV other others?  e.g.  African-Americans.    

I recommend you read some of the editorials they have written since they explain 'why a wraparound'.       (CNN has a few article on this,  with a picture from GWTW, since CNN and TCM are owned by the same company).

NOW,  I'm not saying one has to agree with that POV,   (DUH) but when one continues to ask 'why' I recommend they go ask the source.   

And I suspect you already know the reasons some feel a wraparound is necessary  (unless you have been living in a cave for the last 20 years).

 

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13 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

Thank goodness he no longer has control over what TCM programmers put on the air. TCM's programming department is decidedly liberal, which is a fortunate thing. The bigots and racists can go to Atlanta and be Ted's guests.

TED TURNER has always been a loose cannon.  He's no racist. 

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3 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Why can't you try to understand the POV other others?  e.g.  African-Americans.    

I recommend you read some of the editorials they have written since they explain 'why a wraparound'.       (CNN has a few article on this,  with a picture from GWTW, since CNN and TCM are owned by the same company).

NOW,  I'm not saying one has to agree with that POV,   (DUH) but when one continues to ask 'why' I recommend they go ask the source.   

And I suspect you already know the reasons some feel a wraparound is necessary  (unless you have been living in a cave for the last 20 years).

He's trying to play devil's advocate and point up extreme examples in order to defeat any movement to censure the film. Notice I said censure as opposed to censor.

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2 minutes ago, Allhallowsday said:

TED TURNER has always been a loose cannon.  He's no racist. 

How do you know he is not a racist? 

If Ted Turner is a racist and he created TCM with the main goal of airing GONE WITH THE WIND because it conforms to his view of how life in the south should be, then this channel has a very dark mark against it.

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6 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

In addition TCM and HBO are generally commercial free so they don't receive sponsorship feedback (which is typically the most influential).

Just a clarification - Gone with the Wind was pulled from HBO Max, which is the new Warner Media streaming service. Despite the name, it's a separate entity from the traditional HBO pay channel available on cable and satellite. HBO Max is comparable to Netflix or Amazon Prime, and it offers programming from Warner Brothers, TCM, Criterion, DC Comics, HBO, and various other TV and film outlets. Gone with the Wind  was pulled from their streaming offering. I don't think it was ever aired on the HBO channel, but if it did, it wasn't often. 

With streaming, people had to choose to watch the movie, unlike if it's aired on TCM, where someone would have to change the channel if they didn't want to see it. The current political/social climate caused the just-launched HBO Max to pull the movie, but they most likely will bring it back to their service with the aforementioned disclaimers before the movie. The corporate bosses are also very skittish about losing subscribers to their (very expensive to get running) brand new streaming service.

And personally, I'm 100% against removing the film, or any film, from the market, particularly from streaming offerings, where the customer has to click on the movie to watch it, making a conscious decision to do so, rather than passively coming across it while flipping channels on cable. I also don't mind it being shown on TV, either, though. And that goes for other films like Song of the South as well. Like others have mentioned, there are more offensive depictions of people in other films than Gone with the Wind. I personally find Breakfast at Tiffany's to be much more racially offensive, but I still wouldn't want to see that movie banned, or for people to be denied access to it. 

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13 minutes ago, LawrenceA said:

Just a clarification - Gone with the Wind was pulled from HBO Max, which is the new Warner Media streaming service. Despite the name, it's a separate entity from the traditional HBO pay channel available on cable and satellite. HBO Max is comparable to Netflix or Amazon Prime, and it offers programming from Warner Brothers, TCM, Criterion, DC Comics, HBO, and various other TV and film outlets. Gone with the Wind  was pulled from their streaming offering. I don't think it was ever aired on the HBO channel, but if it did, it wasn't often. 

With streaming, people had to choose to watch the movie, unlike if it's aired on TCM, where someone would have to change the channel if they didn't want to see it. The current political/social climate caused the just-launched HBO Max to pull the movie, but they most likely will bring it back to their service with the aforementioned disclaimers before the movie. The corporate bosses are also very skittish about losing subscribers to their (very expensive to get running) brand new streaming service.

And personally, I'm 100% against removing the film, or any film, from the market, particularly from streaming offerings, where the customer has to click on the movie to watch it, making a conscious decision to do so, rather than passively coming across it while flipping channels on cable. I also don't mind it being shown on TV, either, though. And that goes for other films like Song of the South as well. Like others have mentioned, there are more offensive depictions of people in other films than Gone with the Wind. I personally find Breakfast at Tiffany's to be much more racially offensive, but I still wouldn't want to see that movie banned, or for people to be denied access to it. 

Sorry Larry but I am not buying this argument. There are people that are monitoring what content is available on streaming sites. During a period of national crisis, it is the responsible thing to do to pull the film which thankfully was done. It's not enough to say that people can decide whether or not to click on it and watch it. It would still be offensive to log on to that screen and see this particular movie, a racist movie, is even offered at all.

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gone-with-the-wind-gone-with-the-wind4-6

"Is you woke, Miss Scarlett?"

scarlett+singing.jpg

"Yes, Mammy, I'm awake."

"Yes, I knows you awake, child. But is you woke?"

vivien_leigh-vivien-leigh-30714297-800-6

"Mammy, what on earth are you talking about? Now go get my breakfast."

"Yes'm, but you sure ain't woke. All this talk round these days, I's just startin' to wonder."

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44 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

How do you know he is not a racist? 

If Ted Turner is a racist and he created TCM with the main goal of airing GONE WITH THE WIND because it conforms to his view of how life in the south should be, then this channel has a very dark mark against it.

Examine his history and controversies.  I don't think he bought those old film libraries for just one product, even if it might be his favorite movie.  I think he is actually a good guy - who shoots from the hip and slips like any of us... people. 

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11 minutes ago, Allhallowsday said:

Examine his history and controversies.  I don't think he bought those old film libraries for just one product, even if it might be his favorite movie.  I think he is actually a good guy - who shoots from the hip and slips like any of us... people. 

I think he did buy the libraries for a few select films. He wanted to own/possess GONE WITH THE WIND and THE WIZARD OF OZ so that's why he bought up the MGM/UA library. He wanted to own/possess CITIZEN KANE so he bought up the RKO library. And he wanted to own/possess CASABLANCA so that is why he bought up the Warners library. These films were baubles to add to his collection, because Ted Turner was and is a man who collects, who owns and possesses things that other people can't afford.

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6 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

I think he did buy the libraries for a few select films. He wanted to own/possess GONE WITH THE WIND and THE WIZARD OF OZ so that's why he bought up the MGM/UA library. He wanted to own/possess CITIZEN KANE so he bought up the RKO library. And he wanted to own/possess CASABLANCA so that is why he bought up the Warners library. These films were baubles to add to his collection, because Ted Turner was and is a man who collects, who owns and possesses things that other people can't afford.

Too lazy to google this, but off hand I think I remember  that the entire MGM library in the mid 80s when Turner bought it consisted of RKO, the MGM library up to that point minus the UA films, and the Warner Bros. pre 1949 library.  He initially wanted the library to air on TNT. In the 90s he decided he wanted more modern content on TNT and decided to create TCM for his massive library.  In 1996 Warner Bros. bought Turner's communications empire and so the entire WB library became accessible to TCM.  

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4 minutes ago, LsDoorMat said:

Too lazy to google this, but off hand I think I remember  that the entire MGM library in the mid 80s when Turner bought it consisted of RKO, the MGM library up to that point minus the UA films, and the Warner Bros. pre 1949 library.  He initially wanted the library to air on TNT. In the 90s he decided he wanted more modern content on TNT and decided to create TCM for his massive library.  In 1996 Warner Bros. bought Turner's communications empire and so the entire WB library became accessible to TCM.  

He wanted GONE WITH THE WIND. That's why he went after MGM/UA.

Screen Shot 2020-06-11 at 11.31.06 AM

Kerkorian was obviously not able to buy back GONE WITH THE WIND. Basically Ted got what he wanted and what he didn't want (a lot of the other films) he sold back.

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8 minutes ago, Allhallowsday said:

Nobody paid 1.5 billion for a handful of movies.  He bought a vast library.  Perhaps he considered GWTW the crown jewel. 

I'm sure he did consider it the crown jewel.

Well if he sold the other 'junk' (probably a lot of the UA low budget B movies) back to Kerkorian for almost half a billion, then it only cost him a billion for GONE WITH THE WIND and THE WIZARD OF OZ. Plus he kept all the MGM "A" films.

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