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1 minute ago, jaragon said:

I really don't buy this sexual fluidity thing- yes there are people who are bi-sexual- and yes that makes sense- but this going back and forth thing is not something I'm buying. Anne Heche is another story she seemed to have had some mental health issues. What ever happened to her?

Anne Heche is still a busy actress. She's done a bunch of film and television work in the past few years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Heche#Film

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Personally, I know two women (sisters) who had a "gay" period.  They were annoyed when their brother got married because they wanted their own ceremonies (same sex marriage was forbidden in NY State at the time).  When their son was afraid to tell him Mom that he was marrying a non-Jew, his Mom asked, before he could tell her, is it a woman?  Personally, I don't know what their sexual orientation is.  Our families were friends and I'm in touch with the older daughter.  One never married but did have hetero relationships and the other is on her second marriage.   My Dad's cousin was gay and I once asked my cousin if her Mom was aware of it.  She told me that she probably knew but chose to ignore it.

I do believe that some people fall in love with a person regardless of sex.  What I think is unfair is claiming celebrities are homosexual after their deaths.  They aren't here to defend themselves and I remember Danny Kaye's daughter on TCM.  She would dignify rumors about her parents' marriage and her father's supposed "hookup" with Lord Olivier.

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47 minutes ago, chaya bat woof woof said:

Personally, I know two women (sisters) who had a "gay" period.  They were annoyed when their brother got married because they wanted their own ceremonies (same sex marriage was forbidden in NY State at the time).  When their son was afraid to tell him Mom that he was marrying a non-Jew, his Mom asked, before he could tell her, is it a woman?  Personally, I don't know what their sexual orientation is.  Our families were friends and I'm in touch with the older daughter.  One never married but did have hetero relationships and the other is on her second marriage.   My Dad's cousin was gay and I once asked my cousin if her Mom was aware of it.  She told me that she probably knew but chose to ignore it.

I do believe that some people fall in love with a person regardless of sex.  What I think is unfair is claiming celebrities are homosexual after their deaths.  They aren't here to defend themselves and I remember Danny Kaye's daughter on TCM.  She would dignify rumors about her parents' marriage and her father's supposed "hookup" with Lord Olivier.

Would you have an issue with people claiming celebrities are heterosexual after their deaths? You seem like a supportive person. But there are some folks who practice a double standard. Like they are afraid to have their image of a celebrity shattered by learning the person was in fact gay.

When TCM host Robert Osborne died he was outed by his partner who had survived him. The partner, whom I suspect had been wanting to go public about the relationship but couldn't when Robert was alive, did an interview with the Advocate magazine, a publication that caters to LGBT lifestyles. And as soon as that interview was published, Robert's personal information on his wiki page was changed to reflect his status as an LGBT individual.

If you go to his wiki page, you will notice he's identified four different ways as a gay man. He's tagged under LGBT Broadcasters from the United States; under LGBT writers from the United States; LGBT journalists from the United States; and LGBT people from Washington state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Osborne

If you read the Personal Life section of Robert's wiki page, you can learn who his partner was and how long they were a couple.

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I have an issue with anyone knocking celebrities after they are gone, unless it is done in a tasteful way.  The reason I mentioned the homosexual issue is because someone just wrote a tell-all book about him being a pimp for homosexual stars.  In David Niven's memoir, he had an issue with Bruce Cabot (nothing to do with sexuality).  Personally don't admire Jane Fonda for spilling her family secrets (also know some Vietnam War Vets who don't like her).  When I read Kirk Douglas' The Ragman's Son (think that is the name), he took cruel pot shots at Gene Tierney and Vivian Leigh over their emotional problems.  The problem with making claims against someone (especially after they die) is that the person isn't there to defend his or herself.

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1 hour ago, chaya bat woof woof said:

I have an issue with anyone knocking celebrities after they are gone, unless it is done in a tasteful way.  The reason I mentioned the homosexual issue is because someone just wrote a tell-all book about him being a pimp for homosexual stars.  In David Niven's memoir, he had an issue with Bruce Cabot (nothing to do with sexuality).  Personally don't admire Jane Fonda for spilling her family secrets (also know some Vietnam War Vets who don't like her).  When I read Kirk Douglas' The Ragman's Son (think that is the name), he took cruel pot shots at Gene Tierney and Vivian Leigh over their emotional problems.  The problem with making claims against someone (especially after they die) is that the person isn't there to defend his or herself.

You do make a good point that people can't defend their reputation after death- look at Joan Crawford the general public probably associates her with "Mommie Dearest" the movie than her Hollywood career.

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But in terms of the sexuality issue, not all those people (if they were still around) would feel a need to defend themselves. That is like suggesting being gay is a crime or a black mark against a person, so they have to defend themselves against it. Some of them might confirm their sexuality in a more accepting society. Some of them might just ignore the claims or laugh it all off. Not everyone is going to be uptight and fear being labeled LGBT.

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1 hour ago, TopBilled said:

But in terms of the sexuality issue, not all those people (if they were still around) would feel a need to defend themselves. That is like suggesting being gay is a crime or a black mark against a person, so they have to defend themselves against it. Some of them might confirm their sexuality in a more accepting society. Some of them might just ignore the claims or laugh it all off. Not everyone is going to be uptight and fear being labeled LGBT.

I would never suggest being gay is a bad thing - but those stars did live in a different era . You are right that some who did care look at Dietrich and the way she exploits her bisexuality on screen.   And then there are Grant and Scott in their "bachelor" pad. I read an interview with Gore Vidal in which he said that in the old days some people did not label themselves as gay just because they had homosexual encounters.

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15 hours ago, jaragon said:

I read an interview with Gore Vidal in which he said that in the old days some people did not label themselves as gay just because they had homosexual encounters.

That's still the case.  I know several men who do not label themselves as gay or bisexual, but still have sex with men on an ongoing basis (not a one-time thing or "an indiscretion of youth", to use on old phrase)

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26 minutes ago, txfilmfan said:

That's still the case.  I know several men who do not label themselves as gay or bisexual, but still have sex with men on an ongoing basis (not a one-time thing or "an indiscretion of youth", to use on old phrase)

I think we are all familiar with that type😉

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1 hour ago, txfilmfan said:

That's still the case.  I know several men who do not label themselves as gay or bisexual, but still have sex with men on an ongoing basis (not a one-time thing or "an indiscretion of youth", to use on old phrase)

That seems like a form of non-acceptance and possibly self-loathing.

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I believe it is still an issue in Hollywood regarding certain stars or superstars (using initials, JT and TC).  On other issues, I think some celebrities are non-repentant.  On the intro of the Bette Davis/Edward G. Robinson film, Bette was unhappy with Edward.  She was known to have a rather vicious mouth (but Sinatra could be that way also).  Yet, her daughter wrote a tell-all and claimed some sort of abuse by Bette (she was still alive at the time).  Gary Merrill, her ex, came to Bette's defense.  Personally, many people look at stars as icons or idols and don't want to realize that we are all human beings with our flaws.  Which is why Joe E. Brown (sp?) has that great line at the end of Some Like It Hot:  Well, nobody's perfect!

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14 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

That seems like a form of non-acceptance and possibly self-loathing.

You are right- there is level of internalized homophobia which often leads to violence against the men they are attracted to or the gay panic defense which is not longer being accepted

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Are you talking real people (e.g., Robin Roberts) or fictional?  I remember when people who actually underwent operations to change their sex was a big deal.  Anyone remember Rene Richards (one time love of Martina)?  I have a friend who is so wise about a lot of things (has actually presented before CDC, etc.).  She educated me several years ago about a genetic pre-disposition to feeling that you were born the same sex.  I knew someone who was contemplating a sex change.  That is an extremely difficult choice and people tend to confuse it with men/women who dress up as the opposite sex (especially men).

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2 hours ago, jaragon said:

Any more thoughts or examples of gays on television?

It was just publicized yesterday that two actors who played brothers on the British soap Emmerdale are a couple in real life. One of the brothers was killed off the show awhile back. Nobody really knew either actor was gay in real life or that they were involved with each other.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8557913/Emmerdale-stars-Max-Parker-Kris-Mochrie-DATING-screen.html

Screen Shot 2020-07-25 at 12.04.11 PM.png

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38 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

It was just publicized yesterday that two actors who played brothers on the British soap Emmerdale are a couple in real life. One of the brothers was killed off the show awhile back. Nobody really knew either actor was gay in real life or that they were involved with each other.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8557913/Emmerdale-stars-Max-Parker-Kris-Mochrie-DATING-screen.html

Screen Shot 2020-07-25 at 12.04.11 PM.png

Cute couple

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3 hours ago, chaya bat woof woof said:

Are you talking real people (e.g., Robin Roberts) or fictional?  I remember when people who actually underwent operations to change their sex was a big deal.  Anyone remember Rene Richards (one time love of Martina)?  I have a friend who is so wise about a lot of things (has actually presented before CDC, etc.).  She educated me several years ago about a genetic pre-disposition to feeling that you were born the same sex.  I knew someone who was contemplating a sex change.  That is an extremely difficult choice and people tend to confuse it with men/women who dress up as the opposite sex (especially men).

Interesting but this belongs in the Ed Wood discussion thread.   Transgender people are a totally different issue

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24 minutes ago, chaya bat woof woof said:

I didn't know there was an Ed Wood thread.

No worries. I didn't either!

Perhaps jaragon will provide a link for it.

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I think that the  late Raymond Burr (Perry Mason and Ironside), who died in 1993,  concealled his homosexuality throughout his lifetime, and although it was an open secret to his close friends, it wasn't revealled to the general public until after his death.  He'd had a longtime relationship with Robert Benavides,  who left off acting when he and Burr began their relationship. For many years, he was Burr's business partner in various ventures (raising orchids , growing grapes , and wine production), but only close friends knew the actual nature of their relationship. Burr apparently invented for public consumption  a whole imaginary scenario of long-past marriages, and even an evidently imaginary son who'd died very young, but whose existence has never really been verified. (Burr really did have one very brief marriage to a woman early on in his career). 

Burr had a very long acting career. By the time he died (of cancer) at age 76,  gay identity had begun to enter the mainstream, especially among younger actors, although it may still have been a  drawback to becoming a major star. But Burr came of age at a time when one's homosexuality had to be concealled in order to have a successful Hollywood career, and for many gays of that time period, concealling one's sexual orientation was second-nature.

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When I went to Fiji, I was told about him raising orchids.  He went up and down weight wise.  He was a good actor in films and on TV.

As far as the Ed Wood post, is it about the director or the movie with Johnny Depp and Martin Landau.  It may be a bad movie, but Plan 9 From Outer Space is so tacky it is funny.

There are many gay characters on TV.  I think Edie Falco was gay on her CBS series (not sure if it was cancelled) and the black rookie on The Rookie is gay.  If he is in real life, I neither know or care.

Something many of us forget about or did not know, was that, in England, homosexuality was a criminal offense.  There is a great Dirk Bogard film about it.  And Ian M. has talked about it.

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3 minutes ago, chaya bat woof woof said:

When I went to Fiji, I was told about him raising orchids.  He went up and down weight wise.  He was a good actor in films and on TV.

As far as the Ed Wood post, is it about the director or the movie with Johnny Depp and Martin Landau.  It may be a bad movie, but Plan 9 From Outer Space is so tacky it is funny.

There are many gay characters on TV.  I think Edie Falco was gay on her CBS series (not sure if it was cancelled) and the black rookie on The Rookie is gay.  If he is in real life, I neither know or care.

Something many of us forget about or did not know, was that, in England, homosexuality was a criminal offense.  There is a great Dirk Bogard film about it.  And Ian M. has talked about it.

Are you referring to the cop on the new "The Rookie" series?

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