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Keep this channel an entertainment channel, please!


Kleb
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18 hours ago, Vautrin said:

While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me, I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men... I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate (Charleston, 18 September 1858)

What's interesting is the parts you have in "bold" expresses the Douglas type fear some had about same sex marriage.  That someday it might mean it'll be OK to have laws making it legal for some men to marry goats or other animals.  :rolleyes:

Sepiatone

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I don't understand your confusion TOP.   One part of Vautrin's quote had Lincoln referring to Douglas's apprehension that Lincoln's opposition to slavery and desire to end it might lead to (*gasp*!) white men marrying negro women.  Which I see as tantamount to some criticisms I've heard by those who opposed legalizing same sex marriages due to their belief it might actually lead to legalizing beastiality and marriage of men to animals( sheep, dogs, you name it).   I thought you were well aware of those silly arguments.

Sepiatone

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10 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

I don't understand your confusion TOP.   One part of Vautrin's quote had Lincoln referring to Douglas's apprehension that Lincoln's opposition to slavery and desire to end it might lead to (*gasp*!) white men marrying negro women.  Which I see as tantamount to some criticisms I've heard by those who opposed legalizing same sex marriages due to their belief it might actually lead to legalizing beastiality and marriage of men to animals( sheep, dogs, you name it).   I thought you were well aware of those silly arguments.

Sepiatone

I guess I am confused about what this has to do with TCM being an entertainment channel. It seems like we've strayed from the thread topic.

What Lincoln said and did is not exactly related to what TCM is airing...unless the hosts are commenting directly on whether or not Lincoln was a white supremacist. And all of that seems totally different from laws about same-sex marriage.

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Well sure, it goes to the "thread stray" that usually happens in message boards.    As I'll point out (a-GAIN! :rolleyes: )   The same sex law thing addresses the similarity to  Stephan Douglas's apprehension  that freeing the slaves might lead to  white men marrying negro women to same sex marriage opposers fearing legalizing same sex marriage might actually lead to laws allowing men to marry animals like goats, sheep or whatever.    You'll have to backtrack to recall who steered it all in this direction by the mention of various statues being taken down.

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The recent commentary by Ben, Alicia and Eddie of the movie The searchers was so off base its laughable. I take keyboard in hand to point out the hosts misinformation. My comment stems from Ben saying he has no patients for anyone that don't see this movie for what it is or something along that line, dido.  First of all they went on about the villain of the movie being Ethan, I would argue the villain is the Yankee Calvary that murdered and burned a whole Indian village including Look the Indian squaw. The only people that Ethan actually was shown killing was three white men that was trying to rob them.  The host wants us to believe that Ethan was this great Indian hater although he allowed Look the Indian squaw to tag along with them and also showed Ethan's compassion to Look by covering her with a blanket after the Yankee Calvary raid.  The only Indians that Ethan hated was the Comanche tribe that killed his family and kidnaped his young niece.  Also the host talked about the Indian chief Scar how John Ford should have used a real Indian actor to play the part. Again I would argue that this was done deliberately by Ford for a reason other than bias. One could say that Ford used a white actor to make a point for the movie such as Scar was half white, when Ethan made the comment to Scar "you speak good English" maybe that's because Scars was half white and had a white mother that taught him English. does the host think that Debbie at the age of 9 when kidnaped taught Scar English.  Judging by the recovered white women at the fort that was half crazy wouldn't one assume that Debbie's mental state would be simular.  Give Mr Ford his credit and broaden your lens. I could go on pointing out the misinformation of the host primarily Ben but you should get the gest by now. I like TCM but the commentary's  I will mute if this is how its going to continue.  Me and my family has watched the searchers since the movie came out in the 50s and we all agree the analogy was wrong.  I hope the host are not being influenced by the recent event of our crazed culture, just call it how it is we don't need you to twist it to fit your narratives.  I take my hat off to you the lovely lady Alicia and to Eddie I tip my fedora to you sir and to Ben I flick my brim to you sir in defiance of your analogy. I hope this comment finds its way to whom it may concern. 

I am the man with. 

 No name.  

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There are already several threads about the wraparounds for the Reframed Series

If you want to sponsor a conversation about THE SEARCHERS and its multiple interpretations, then perhaps you can re-name the thread. 

But if it's just another poke at the hosts, your comment will probably be merged with the existing threads. And it won't go over well with liberal viewers who support the host commentaries and TCM's programming for this particular series.

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6 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

What's interesting is the parts you have in "bold" expresses the Douglas type fear some had about same sex marriage.  That someday it might mean it'll be OK to have laws making it legal for some men to marry goats or other animals.  :rolleyes:

Sepiatone

You would have no way of knowing this, but the bold sections came from the original Wikiquote article

and are not mine. In addition to the discussion of marriage, it is obvious that at this time Lincoln didn't

like the idea of blacks having political equality in such matters as voting rights. For someone born in the

early 19th century Lincoln could have been a lot worse.

I find most of the bothersome elements mentioned in Reframing series as obvious as all get out, but they

may be helpful for younger folks who might have a limited knowledge of the history of race and gender

relations in America. 

 

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20 hours ago, TopBilled said:

I guess I am confused about what this has to do with TCM being an entertainment channel. It seems like we've strayed from the thread topic.

What Lincoln said and did is not exactly related to what TCM is airing...unless the hosts are commenting directly on whether or not Lincoln was a white supremacist. And all of that seems totally different from laws about same-sex marriage.

It has not strayed that much.  The original post is complaining about "politics" getting into TCM programming.  Much of that relates to "revisions' or instructions of how we should consider many movies about the South and the Civil War and Westerns on TCM.  That leads very easily into how Lincoln is perceived today vs. how he really was in 1858.

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1 hour ago, ElCid said:

It has not strayed that much.  The original post is complaining about "politics" getting into TCM programming.  Much of that relates to "revisions' or instructions of how we should consider many movies about the South and the Civil War and Westerns on TCM.  That leads very easily into how Lincoln is perceived today vs. how he really was in 1858.

That kind of hints in a belief that doing your own thinking shouldn't be a consideration when forming an impression about any movie.   That YOU or anyone else wishes to react and consider anything about a certain movie is fine.  But, it doesn't mean I have to also.  And it also doesn't mean that I'm unaware of the truth about the past when I refuse to condemn a movie that's NOT an historic tutorial that displays an inaccurate representation of any certain historical period.   It then maybe might mean I should also condemn many science fiction and horror movies because they don't show the truth.   :wacko:

Sepiatone

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23 hours ago, No name said:

The recent commentary by Ben, Alicia and Eddie of the movie The searchers was so off base its laughable. I take keyboard in hand to point out the hosts misinformation. My comment stems from Ben saying he has no patients for anyone that don't see this movie for what it is or something along that line, dido.  First of all they went on about the villain of the movie being Ethan, I would argue the villain is the Yankee Calvary that murdered and burned a whole Indian village including Look the Indian squaw. The only people that Ethan actually was shown killing was three white men that was trying to rob them.  The host wants us to believe that Ethan was this great Indian hater although he allowed Look the Indian squaw to tag along with them and also showed Ethan's compassion to Look by covering her with a blanket after the Yankee Calvary raid.  The only Indians that Ethan hated was the Comanche tribe that killed his family and kidnaped his young niece.  Also the host talked about the Indian chief Scar how John Ford should have used a real Indian actor to play the part. Again I would argue that this was done deliberately by Ford for a reason other than bias. One could say that Ford used a white actor to make a point for the movie such as Scar was half white, when Ethan made the comment to Scar "you speak good English" maybe that's because Scars was half white and had a white mother that taught him English. does the host think that Debbie at the age of 9 when kidnaped taught Scar English.  Judging by the recovered white women at the fort that was half crazy wouldn't one assume that Debbie's mental state would be simular.  Give Mr Ford his credit and broaden your lens. I could go on pointing out the misinformation of the host primarily Ben but you should get the gest by now. I like TCM but the commentary's  I will mute if this is how its going to continue.  Me and my family has watched the searchers since the movie came out in the 50s and we all agree the analogy was wrong.  I hope the host are not being influenced by the recent event of our crazed culture, just call it how it is we don't need you to twist it to fit your narratives.  I take my hat off to you the lovely lady Alicia and to Eddie I tip my fedora to you sir and to Ben I flick my brim to you sir in defiance of your analogy. I hope this comment finds its way to whom it may concern. 

I am the man with. 

 No name.  

Thank you for that analysis. Certainly more thought went into it than the lazy and simplistic “He’s a racist and Ford should have used more Indians” commentary from the experts. 

IIRC it was Eddie who made an effort to describe Wayne’s character as an angry at the world loner. I think that’s an honest description. The focus of Ethan Edwards anger has shifted from Union soldiers to Comanche warriors, not Indians as a whole. 
 
The Searchers, a film from 1956, where Ford presents Ethan and Scar as bookends, where both the Indians and the Army are shown as the bad guys, surely there must be a better example to support the issues the hosts are trying ‘educate’ us on.
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On 3/21/2021 at 3:02 PM, Vautrin said:

......it is obvious that at this time Lincoln didn't like the idea of blacks having political equality in such matters as voting rights.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."  ~Lincoln

When you look into it, the notion the war was fought to end slavery falls apart pretty quickly.  

 

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I would quibble with that a little. When you go to war it's generally a good idea to disrupt the enemies means of production. The "goal" was always to keep the union intact, ending slavery became a strategic means to that end.  

Bottom line. Had the south not left the union would federal troops attack to free slaves? Of course not.

 

 

 

 

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I personally don't have a problem with the commentators telling people that the content may be "offensive" to some people. I appreciate the fact that they are keeping and preserving these movies as opposed to pulling them from the air like other companies have done. I cheer tcm by keeping these films on the air and warning the viewers before the viewer starts watching them. That way it gives the viewer a chance to change the channel if they are easily offended.  I thank TCM for doing this and keeping the films on the air for all to see! I say, well done TCM! 

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The Searchers is a poor pick as an example of racism against Native Americans since John Wayne's version of Ethen Edwards cops out in the end when, despite his tough talk through out the movie, he swopes up niece Debbie and takes her home where she's welcomed by her extended "family." In the Alan Le May novel on which the movie is based, Ethan never finds Debbie. Instead during a raid on a Comanche village he chases on horseback a fleeing squaw who turns and kills him with a pistol she's carrying. In the book, the Martin Pawley (who eventually finds and rescues Debbie) admits he didn't know if Nathan wanted to kill or rescue his niece. I think Ethen's true motive was revenge for the rape, mutilation, and murder of his lost love, Martha Edwards. That love is revealed (with unusual subtilty for both Ford and Wayne) in the looks the two exchange when Ethan returns to his brother's West Texas ranch and the way she caresses his coat before he leaves with the posse hunting cattle thieves. When he returns to the burning ranch, he calls out for Martha, not his brother or either of the two daughters. And when he finds her abused body in the shed, his silhouette in the doorway goes limp, and you can plainly see him crumple from that loss. His real mission afterward is to find and kill the war chief Scar. Debbie is just an excuse for his search. 

A film in which racism is much more outspoken is The Unforgiven, the 1960 movie based on another Le May novel, directed by John Houston and starring Burt Lancaster, Audrey Hepburn, and Audie Murphy.  Early in the film Lancaster as Ben Zachary pounds a half-breed Johnny Portugal (played very well by the always underrated John Saxon) for picking a tiny feather from the hair of sister Audrey Hepburn.  Murphy as the much more bigoted younger brother Cash wants to kill the half-breed, not because of any supposed insert to his sister but simply because he hates Comanches who had killed the father of the Zachary clan. The twist in that movie is that Hepburn's character is actually a Comanche who the father took home as apparently the lone survivor from a Texan raid on a Comanche camp. That secret is revealed by a crazed wanderer wonderfully played by the always outstanding Joseph Wiseman. Neighbors and even Cash break with the Zachary family when they refuse to return the girl to a war chief who is her brother and who has been seeking her like Martin Pawley and perhaps even Ethan Edwards were searching for Debbie.  The prejudice against Native Americans--particularly Comanches--actually is shouted out on two occasions in the film in which they are called "red (N-word)." 

The historic truth is there was mutual hate shared equally by the Comanches and early Texans. The Comanches were aggressively warlike in their contact with European interlopers into their territory, part of which they took from the Apache, pushing that tribe into the barren desert and mountain of New Mexico. Comanches early acquired horses from Spanish explorers and are said to have used them better than any other tribe, particularly in raids against the Spanish, Mexicans, and Texans. Under a truce, officials of the Republic of Texas met with Comanche chiefs in a peace conference in San Antonio on Mar. 19, 1840, to negotiate recognition of the boundaries of their Comancheria homeland in much of West and North Texas in return for the release of Texan and Mexican citizens held prisoner by the Comanches. The Texans were angered that the Comanches brought only one 16-year-old captive and told the chiefs they would be jailed until the other captives were released. The interpreter warned that the chiefs would react violently if told that, Ordered to do so, he delivered the threat and jumped out an open window.  The chiefs drew weapons and attacked; even their women and children in the streets outside the meeting room attacked with knives and arrows. Texas Republic soldiers in the room opened fire, hitting both friend and foe. As a result, 12 Comanche leaders shot to death inside the Council House, 23 others shot in the streets of San Antonio, and 30 taken captive. A smaller number of Texans were killed, including a judge and an army officer.  When Comanche women returned home to tell of the deaths, most of the remaining captive Texan women and children were killed, mostly slowly roasted.  Afterwards the infamous Comanche Buffalo Hump led a revenge raid clear across Texas, sacking three towns, including completely destroying what was then Texas's second largest port city on the Gulf of Mexico. It was estimated at the time at least 1,000 Comanches from several of the many independent Comanche tribes participated in what is historically considered the largest Native American raid in US history.

The Debbie character in The Searchers calls to mind the real case of Cynthia Ann Parker who was kidnapped by a large Comanche war party  in 1836 (the year Texas won its independence from Mexico) when she was about 10 years old during a raid on Fort Parker,  fortified blockhouses and central citadel built by the Parker family and neighboring families on the headwaters of the Navasota River in what is now Limestone County, Texas. She was adopted by the Comanche and lived with them for 24 years, completely forgetting her previous culture.] She married a Comanche chieftain and had three children with him, including the infamous Quanah Parker who became known as "the last free Comanche chief." She was about 34 when she and a daughter were found by Texas Ranger and returned her to relatives where she spent the last decade of her life. She escaped at least once but was brought back to her Texas family. After her daughter died of pneumonia, Cynthia Ann stopped eating and died in 1871, 

Although one of the 11 states to secede, Texas was the only Confederate state with unsettled frontier and an international boundary. Texas was the  only state that allowed its citizens to vote whether or not to secede. People along the western frontier had long complained of the lack of military protection against raids by the Comanches and their allied Kiowas and voted for secession in hopes the state or, later, the Confederacy would provide troops to protect them. Citizens in several counties along the Red River boundary south of the Indian Territory, feared a war would cause the union to close its forts in the Territory, leaving them at the mercy of Indian tribes there. Some of the tribes allied with the Confederacy which offered but never delivered representation in the Confederate congress. Others did raid across the river into Texas, especially after armed Texans cross the river and threatened those tribes if they did attack. During the five years of Civil War, the Comanches pushed the Texas frontier back by 400 miles, killing 200 Texas settlers in the process. Many Texas voters soon fell out with Confederate officials who insisted military units raised in the state to protect the frontier were instead sent east to fight for the Confederacy. Many historians speculate that, even if the Confederacy miraculously won its independence, Texas would soon have seceded again to protect its own self-interest on its frontier and the Mexican border.

One bit of trivia about the supposed Confederate medal John Wayne gives little Debbie in the movie. The Confederacy didn't have any medals although its congress sometimes issued certificates of merit or appreciation. The US Medal of Honor (which the movie prop resembled) as approved for Union troops in 1862. Until then, the only medal was the Purple Heart, was originally designated as the Badge of Military Merit when established by George Washington Aug. 7, 1782. It was awarded to only three Revolutionary War soldiers by Washington himself, who authorized subordinate officers to issue Badges of Merit as appropriate. Although never abolished, the award of the badge was not proposed again officially until after the first World War.  

 

Edited by Rufnek43
corrected entry mistake
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41 minutes ago, Bnc62683 said:

I personally don't have a problem with the commentators telling people that the content may be "offensive" to some people. I appreciate the fact that they are keeping and preserving these movies as opposed to pulling them from the air like other companies have done. I cheer tcm by keeping these films on the air and warning the viewers before the viewer starts watching them. That way it gives the viewer a chance to change the channel if they are easily offended.  I thank TCM for doing this and keeping the films on the air for all to see! I say, well done TCM! 

Nice to see someone that really gets it.      Funny,  but related to cancel-culture it is the folks that are upset at TCM and the host for the comments,   and have said they will no longer watch TCM,  that are practicing cancel-culture (by "canceling" TCM).     TCM isn't doing that since,  as you note,  TCM is showing the films uncut;  i.e. with so called offensive scenes 100% intact. 

TCM has received complaints from activist asking TCM to not show films these activist believe are offensive.     TCM had 3 choices;   completely ignore the activist,    stop showing the films or doing what they are doing now with this series.      I think TCM made the right choice and it is those that disagree (because they believe TCM should have made one of the other 2 choices),  that are the extremist.

 

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1 hour ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Nice to see someone that really gets it.      Funny,  but related to cancel-culture it is the folks that are upset at TCM and the host for the comments,   and have said they will no longer watch TCM,  that are practicing cancel-culture (by "canceling" TCM).     TCM isn't doing that since,  as you note,  TCM is showing the films uncut;  i.e. with so called offensive scenes 100% intact. 

TCM has received complaints from activist asking TCM to not show films these activist believe are offensive.     TCM had 3 choices;   completely ignore the activist,    stop showing the films or doing what they are doing now with this series.      I think TCM made the right choice and it is those that disagree (because they believe TCM should have made one of the other 2 choices),  that are the extremist.

I think the issue is more complex.

First, TCM can limit the amount of times it airs something. They have really cut back on showing BIRTH OF A NATION. And when they do air it, the broadcast has to include educational wraparounds. So in some ways it has become regulated, if not exactly censored.

Second, TCM's business is classic film. This Reframed series is a stopgap measure to ensure that they are not controlled by outside groups who want to prevent them from airing certain controversial films. If they lose ground over the airing of these films, then the trend will continue and they will lose ground over the airing of other films. They want to prevent that from happening.

Third, they are using the Reframed series to drum up publicity for the channel. In a way they are pimping out the hosts and their liberal crusade to attract attention to TCM which enables them to sell other products and services to interested viewers.

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It was my understanding that "The Birth of a Nation" hasn't been shown on TCM in several years.  I seem to remember the chairman/director/CEO at TCM, or whatever, saying that they'd never show it again, although apparently Jacqueline Stewart has expressed openness to the idea.

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6 hours ago, Moe Howard said:

I would quibble with that a little. When you go to war it's generally a good idea to disrupt the enemies means of production. The "goal" was always to keep the union intact, ending slavery became a strategic means to that end.  

Bottom line. Had the south not left the union would federal troops attack to free slaves? Of course not.

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of debate about the exact purpose of making the abolition of slavery the goal of the war as

it progressed. Maybe that question will never be answered. If the south had suddenly called for a reversal

of secession if they were allowed to keep the system of slavery intact, would that have been allowed? Who

knows. I do agree that if the south had not seceded there would have been no war as Lincoln was not an

abolitionist when he was elected.  And if the south had not seceded slavery would have likely lasted more

than four years. They kind of ended slavery prematurely by their haste in leaving the union after Lincoln

was elected. 

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