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A Walk on the Noir Side


rohanaka

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Good evening, Black-and-White Gal -- NO sympathy, my friend. I think it is GOOD

for us all to expand our horizons now and then... YOU need to step OUT of the

shadows.... and well... I guess I need to step INTO them for a change..ha.

 

But I've been stuck in the shadows watching the Duke. He's always hiding in them! All I've

been doing is watching Poopy! I need new horizons!

 

I like the "Donny" line... very good. ha. And I think you are right (from a comment

you mentioned earlier) I think there is a level of "morality play" in a lot of noir films

(at least based on my limited understanding) As in: the wrong choice will work

against you in the end. Not all noir stories likely fit this mold, but I think many

of them might.

 

Film noir, at its best, allows the viewer to think for themselves. We are not told not

to do what "Donny" is doing, but we would be wise not to.

 

Well... I do like a "happy ending" w/ a lot of my movies.... but I really like a GOOD

character study w/ a thought provoking plot more than just about anything (which

is on reason I like a lot of the westerns that I do)

 

I have said many times on this board that I get more from an unhappy ending than a

happy ending. I don't really learn much if all is well in the end. That's not to say I don't

enjoy my share of happy endings, though.

 

And going back to our long drawn out (it is over a YEAR now..ha) ongoing "All

things black/white/and gray... I mean GREY" conversation.... I think the biggest

thing for me in a film is wanting to see people make up right decisions just

because they are RIGHT. I DO like my good guys and my bad guys pretty

well drawn for me.

 

Film noir features many bad guys (and gals) and "bad" guys in the lead. Do you feel for

the guy or don't you? It's rather fascinating. Film noir tends to challenge the viewer

more.

 

But here is my BIG secret... ha. I am not really so "black and white" as I carry

on about sometimes (at least when it comes to movies...ha) Because I DO also

like a story where maybe someone did NOT choose well at the beginning... and

then they end up making up for their past somehow in the end. (repentance is a

wonderful thing and I LOVE movies that have that as a theme)And I also like stories

that show the consequence that can come from making a bad choice too. And the

struggles that are involved once that choice is made.

 

There is definitely redemptive figures in film noir and I also find those characters to be

very interesting. But what I like most in film noir are those who just crash and

burn. Film noir is flooded with these types. Lots of tragedy.

 

Those are maybe "tangents" that are PART of my black and white leanings.... but

they are not necessarily so "black and white in and of themselves. Because lets

face it... although I think most "right and wrong's" really ARE black and white.... I do

not think most PEOPLE are. And we all choose poorly now and then. Some of us

make a life out of it.. and that is when we end up on the "black" side of grey. Others

seek to overcome their failings... and the whiter side of grey comes out. So to

me.... Grey is most often the middle ground where people are either still CHOOSING

or it is the much more narrow "ride the fence' territory where it really DOES seem

there is not clear right or wrong) does that make sense??? ha.

 

Yes, "grey" can come to mean different things. Your view of people being "grey" is

the view I have. No one is pure white or pure black, although I try! When someone

says that's a "grey area," that often means it's up for debate. I think we all come to

think this way at certain moments and with certain things. Most of the time, it boils

down to what side you are on. If someone is speaking in definitive terms and you

are on the opposite side of those terms, out comes the "grey area." In the end, it's

all about self. It's you who decides.

 

But getting back to my "variety is the spice of movie watching" thoughts, ha... Another

area (that is completely seperate from what I just mentioned above) that I also really

enjoy, is a good pyschological thriller... I like getting into the mind of the monster

sometimes to see what makes them tick... (as in Shadow of a Doubt and Night

Must Fall.) and the process that all takes as the story plays out.

 

I'm all about psychological and emotional. Film noir has emotion, but it's far more

psychological. I believe it's the most psychological of all "genres."

 

So all in all, I think it is good for me to be stepping into this new territory. I am looking

forward to trying on a few Grey films for size.

 

I think you will enjoy going off the beaten path so long as you don't watch one film noir

after another and another. That would probably wear you out. And I'm thrilled you are

trying out film noir. I'd love to discuss film noir with someone who is new to it.

 

Ohhh, yes, I loved the fashion! (picture me... rolling my eyes...ha. AGAIN, I am not

surprised!) ha.

 

I always roll my eyes when you gals talk about fashion. :D

 

I loved that whole scene on the stairs at the beginning. When her necklace

breaks and the beads go everywhere... including at the feet of the killer.... very

intense.

 

That was a terrific, well-crafted moment. That really got the film rolling. You captured

the scene well with your screen caps.

 

WELL think again, because YOU ARE WRONG-O sir.. ha. I saw The Thrird Man

a couple of months ago when TCM aired it... and I LOVED it..ha. VERY surprising

movie... with PLENTY of twists and turns... one of my most favorite perfomances

for WELLES ever.

 

Wow! I would not have guessed that. I thought the zither would have did you in. The Third

Man is one of my favorites.

 

You know, I'm now thinking you will like more than three out of ten films noir. You may

be 50/50.

 

And PS: Miss G has NEVER steered me wrong... so I am gonna trust her.

 

Mrs. Magoo?!

 

PS.... Jackie... NO one is going to "rub you out".

 

That's what you think!

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Noir seems to me to be an attitude. The atmosphere of a movie reflects that feeling. Plenty of emotion - love, anger, rage, envy, greed, distrust, etc. I think people bring their own sensibilities to noir. Your outlook can bring different things to characters. Maybe it could make them more conflicted. Maybe it makes them more understandable whether we like what they do or not.

 

I think on a level noir and westerns have some things in common. It is full of people we may know and situations we may recognize but would hardly ever find ourselves in. I think the unlikely hood of anyone's life mirroring a story line is remote but something you might dream yourself in. That may be where the comparison ends. Westerns tend to be more black and white, if you will, and there may be more of a code but some of the psychology is suggestive of each other. The complexity of the personalities live well in both worlds.

 

I hope that makes sense.

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> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I think on a level noir and westerns have some things in common. It is full of people we may know and situations we may recognize but would hardly ever find ourselves in.

 

I think that's a good point; characters in both genres tend to be very archetypal figures, frequently larger than life. Many movies in both genres also revolve around living within/outside of the law. There may even be some parallels between the D.A.s and detectives of noir and the sheriffs and marshals of the western.

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> {quote:title=sineast wrote:}{quote}

> I enjoy a good noir, and even an average noir (genre forbearance), but I've never taken

> them very seriously. Noirs are somewhat more realistic than your average 1950s Techni

> happy-ending musical, but not much. The noir is kind of a polar opposite of something

> like musicals. Gritty, shadowy, bad characters, fatalistic, fast-talking. Many musicals

> are just the opposite, and both genres are about the same distance from dull, everyday

> life. In noir, the glass is half empty, in musicals half-full, but they're both just entertainment.

> Dark fantasy, bright fantasy, take yer choice. A hustle here, a hustle there.

>

 

I think the two genres also share a sense of heightened (or stylized) reality.

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I think people bring their own sensibilities to noir. Your outlook can bring different

things to characters. Maybe it could make them more conflicted. Maybe it makes

them more understandable whether we like what they do or not.

 

You know, I never really thought of it that way, but you are very right. But I will take it one

big step further: I think people bring their own sensibilites to all of film. What may delight

someone may infuriate another. Film noir connects with my sensibilities more than any

other "genre."

 

I think on a level noir and westerns have some things in common. It is full of people

we may know and situations we may recognize but would hardly ever find ourselves

in. I think the unlikely hood of anyone's life mirroring a story line is remote but

something you might dream yourself in. That may be where the comparison ends.

 

I completely agree with you. The dark desires of man can be found in film noir. I surely

wouldn't want to go through what the men in film noir do, but it excites me to see

how someone else fares. I'm very voyeuristic with film noir.

 

Westerns tend to be more black and white, if you will, and there may be more of a

code but some of the psychology is suggestive of each other. The complexity of the

personalities live well in both worlds.

 

The psychological westerns are the ones that do attract me most, so you are right about

some westerns having a connection to film noir. Anthony Mann was brilliant at both. I'm

curious as to how Fritz Lang handles a more noirish western in Rancho Notorious,

which will be aired on TCM, tomorrow.

 

I also agree with you in that westerns tend to be more "black and white." We usually

know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are and we are to be pulling for

the good guys. It's pretty straightforward. What makes film noir more fascinating to

me is that some of the leads are bad guys and we find ourselves actually pulling

for them. I guess this is akin to the gangster pics of the 30s.

 

Film noir also features good guys who go bad for foolish, selfish reasons. I'm not sure

how many westerns are like this. I'm sure there are some. It's almost as if film noir is

the backstory of westerns. We hear about Ethan Edwards (John Wayne in

The Searchers) and Shane's (Alan Ladd) shady pasts but we don't

see it. In film noir, we see it. You could even say This Gun for Hire is the

Shane of film noir. How would we feel about a "hero" if we saw him doing

bad? I like 3 Bad Men because John Ford does show us the good guys

doing bad. That was a revelation for me.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Just stand next to me, you'll always make sense.

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*Film noir also features good guys who go bad for foolish, selfish reasons. I'm not sure*

*how many westerns are like this.*

 

I think it is almost the opposite approach and is often met with failure. Bad guys try and reform themselves but sometimes they can't run away from themselves or their past. They might live for under their reformation for awhile but if doesn't always last.

 

Pulling for bad guys in noir films does seem to go against one's better nature but it is true. Someone does something awful but you do pull for them. Remembering "The Woman In The Window" and how that whole movie was built around your sympathy for someone who took a tragic situation and made it all worse but yet you feel for the guy and how badly it has gone.

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I think it is almost the opposite approach and is often met with failure. Bad guys try

and reform themselves but sometimes they can't run away from themselves or their

past. They might live for under their reformation for awhile but if doesn't always last.

 

That sounds interesting. What westerns feature this?

 

Pulling for bad guys in noir films does seem to go against one's better nature

but it is true. Someone does something awful but you do pull for them.

 

And I find that to be fascinating. And we pretty much know they are going to fail.

In westerns, it's about success. In film noir, it's about failure. It's no wonder I love

film noir! :D

 

One western that I can think of that places the focus on the bad guys is my second

favorite western of all time, The Wild Bunch. You could say that's

The Asphalt Jungle of westerns. Although, isn't there a western that basically

retold The Asphalt Jungle?

 

Remembering "The Woman In The Window" and how that whole movie was built

around your sympathy for someone who took a tragic situation and made it all

worse but yet you feel for the guy and how badly it has gone.

 

Exactly. We're curious to see what they are going to do to save their guilty bacon.

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HELLO Sheriff Layne (I did not get a chance to respond to your LOVELY post elsewhere so I will give you a shout out here..ha!)

 

But I've been stuck in the shadows watching the Duke. He's always hiding in them! All I've

been doing is watching Poopy! I need new horizons!

 

Did I mention blah blah blah blah blah????????? ha. :P

 

I have said many times on this board that I get more from an unhappy ending than a

happy ending. I don't really learn much if all is well in the end. That's not to say I don't

enjoy my share of happy endings, though.

 

I think just because a movie ends "happy" or with a favorable outcome for the main characters, it does not necessarily diminish any lessons learned earlier in the story. But having said that, I can also see the benefit sometimes from the shock value of a "less than happy" end to the story.

 

Your view of people being "grey" is the view I have. No one is pure white or pure black, although I try! When someone says that's a "grey area," that often means it's up for debate. I think we all come to think this way at certain moments and with certain things. Most of the time, it boils

down to what side you are on. If someone is speaking in definitive terms and you

are on the opposite side of those terms, out comes the "grey area." In the end, it's

all about self. It's you who decides.

 

Well... now I have to go and undo some of what I said..ha. I likely did NOT explain myself as well as I should. (because it is starting to sound like I have done a 180 on some PREVIOUS conversations we have had in the past.) When I said that I think situations are black and white but people are grey, I SHOULD have said that most people CHOOSE to be grey. Because that is what I really meant.

 

Really it goes back to conversations we have had in the past about this because no matter what we THINK about situations we are facing in life.... there is USUALLY (not always, but usually) an certain truth to that situation that does NOT rely on things being one way or another to be true. Truth is not situational, and so in order for something to TRULY be gray, it would have to be true one way sometimes and a completely different way another. And I don't honestly see life like that. But I DO think people CHOOSE to see life like that, and then that is where the grey really comes in.

 

Ha... I HAD to get that clarified lest you think I had somehow been replaced by some sort of Grey speaking POD PERSON... ha. I am still the same old black and white ME.... ha.

 

But before I turn this into another of our famous knock down drag outs..ha... what I was trying to say (about my BIG Grey secret) is... that as much as I still look at life through a black and white lens.... I DO really enjoy seeing films sometimes that show the struggles that sometimes come from people choosing Grey. I DO like stories where characters choose what is right JUST because it is the right thing to do, but I have to confess that every now and then I I ALSO enjoy stories that show the human struggle that comes from a wrong choice... or from NOT choosing a right path. (Ok, glad to have the chance to clear that up, ha)

 

I'm all about psychological and emotional. Film noir has emotion, but it's far more

psychological. I believe it's the most psychological of all "genres."

 

Based only on my limited experience so far, I am inclined to agree with you. And that is what makes some of those stories so intriguing. I want to know the WHY behind the choices and the situations.

 

I think you will enjoy going off the beaten path so long as you don't watch one film noir

after another and another. That would probably wear you out. And I'm thrilled you are

trying out film noir. I'd love to discuss film noir with someone who is new to it.

 

Well thanks to you (and everyone) for making me feel welcome. It is a lot of fun so far. And don't worry.. you can take the girl out of a "black and white" story... but you can't take the "black and white" out of the girl. ha. I will LIKELY drive you NUTS (if I have not already) with me WHY did he DO THAT? sort of comments on some of these stories..ha.

 

You captured the scene well with your screen caps.

 

Hey.. when it comes to SCREENCAPS I can only just thank the MASTER (Miyagisan!!) :-)

 

Wow! I would not have guessed that. I thought the zither would have did you in

 

Are you kidding??????????? I LOVED that happy little tune (though I have to confess I had to look up what a ZITHER was...HA) I think it is a GREAT tool for showing the "tension" in the story by placing it alongside such a lighthearted melody.

 

 

 

The Third Man is one of my favorites

 

I am hoping to catch it again sometime. I would like to get it on tape. MAN OH MAN that Harry Lime was SLIME...ha.

 

You know, I'm now thinking you will like more than three out of ten films noir. You may

be 50/50.

 

Well... you never can tell with me... I am a "mystery" sometimes..ha. Just when I think I will LIKE a story... I end up getting so mad I want to throw something at the tv and walk away.. ha. I take my movies WAY to personally sometimes. But I am really looking forward to finding some new films to threaten my tv with...ha.

 

Ro: And PS: Miss G has NEVER steered me wrong... so I am gonna trust her.

 

FG: Mrs. Magoo?!

 

Ro: PS.... Jackie... NO one is going to "rub you out".

 

FG: That's what you think!

 

April, do you have Dan Duryea's phone number??? I think we are going to need BACK UP...ha.

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The first one that came to mind was "Colorado Territory" with Joel McCrea. He breaks out of jail to then meet up with a gang for one last go at something only to come across a man and his daughter who start to give him a new outlook on things. He is in too deep to get out of the situation no matter how hard he tries but he can't get out and it winds up costing him.

 

Maybe the most glaring example is "Unforgiven" with Eastwood. His wife had made a new man of him. He has turned his back on all the things he did. Desperation drives him toward his old life but revenge brings it out fully. He goes home but he can never go back to his reformed self. At I don't think he can. You might even make an argument for "Butch Cassidy" falls in here.

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HIYA Mr. Movieman!!

 

I think on a level noir and westerns have some things in common. It is full of people we may know and situations we may recognize but would hardly ever find ourselves in. I think the unlikely hood of anyone's life mirroring a story line is remote but something you might dream yourself in. That may be where the comparison ends. Westerns tend to be more black and white, if you will, and there may be more of a code but some of the psychology is suggestive of each other. The complexity of the personalities live well in both worlds.

 

Boy, I think you are right. I see a LOT Of the comparisons you and the grey dude have been making

 

Bad guys try and reform themselves but sometimes they can't run away from themselves or their past. They might live for under their reformation for awhile but if doesn't always last.

 

OH wow, there ARE some westerns that really carry this theme and with a heavy hand too. Sometimes a repentant heart will win the day, but other times, we are what we ARE. (the complete opposite to the themes we saw in Man of the West not too long ago)

 

And with UNFORGIVEN you are right on the money. (and I gotta confess.... I REALLY hate that movie for just that reason..ha. But it is a great example)

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Hey there, Cowboy Chris -- The first one that came to mind was "Colorado Territory"

with Joel McCrea. He breaks out of jail to then meet up with a gang for one last go at

something only to come across a man and his daughter who start to give him a new

outlook on things. He is in too deep to get out of the situation no matter how hard

he tries but he can't get out and it winds up costing him.

 

That sounds very good! It reminds me of They Live by Night, one of my favorite

films noir. I need to check that one out.

 

Maybe the most glaring example is "Unforgiven" with Eastwood. His wife had made

a new man of him. He has turned his back on all the things he did. Desperation drives

him toward his old life but revenge brings it out fully. He goes home but he can never

go back to his reformed self. At I don't think he can.

 

For some stupid reason, I separate contemporary from classic. I expect the more

"modern" westerns to take on a darker slant than their predecessors.

 

Don't you think Bill Munny's (Clint Eastwood) intentions turned noble early on and guilt

forced him down the revenge path?

 

You might even make an argument for "Butch Cassidy" falls in here.

 

That's a great call! That's another western where we follow the bad guys.

 

Howdy, Quiet Gal -- I think just because a movie ends "happy" or with a

favorable outcome for the main characters, it does not necessarily diminish any

lessons learned earlier in the story. But having said that, I can also see the benefit

sometimes from the shock value of a "less than happy" end to the story.

 

I believe a tragic ending just sticks with you more and it makes you think and feel

more. A happy ending is more of a "phew, everything is okay and I don't have to

worry about what happened beforehand."

 

I SHOULD have said that most people CHOOSE to be grey.

 

But if you believe we are all sinners, that means we're all grey. Sin is black.

 

Really it goes back to conversations we have had in the past about this because

no matter what we THINK about situations we are facing in life.... there is USUALLY

(not always, but usually) an certain truth to that situation that does NOT rely on

things being one way or another to be true. Truth is not situational, and so in order

for something to TRULY be gray, it would have to be true one way sometimes and

a completely different way another. And I don't honestly see life like that. But I DO

think people CHOOSE to see life like that, and then that is where the grey really

comes in.

 

I would have to know all the answers to all the questions, but I don't. And for me to

assume that I do, would be vain. As I was saying before, it all comes down to self. Most

everyone of sound mind has the power to think for self and we all end up making decisions

based on what we feel is right. It doesn't make it right or true, only right or true to us.

 

If a person cannot say they are wrong, then it means a door is closed and they have

chosen self. For what person thinks they are wrong?

 

The asking what makes a film a film noir is a prime example of grey. I've had discussions

with people like ChiO, Dewey, and Arkadin about this and I think we all have our

divergences despite sharing very similar views. I tend to be the strictest with my

definition, mostly with time frame. But just because it's my belief, it doesn't make it

right. Who am I to tell someone else what they believe is wrong and that I'm

completely right? Anything I profess is self. The Philadelphia Flyers are the greatest

team ever because I say and believe that. Really? "This is how you raise a child." Oh,

it is? Who says? Lots of grey there.

 

I think the best example is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." That's a very definitive statement, but we

humans tend to find some grey there. We've added asterisks.

 

But before I turn this into another of our famous knock down drag outs..ha... what

I was trying to say (about my BIG Grey secret) is... that as much as I still look

at life through a black and white lens.... I DO really enjoy seeing films sometimes

that show the struggles that sometimes come from people choosing Grey. I DO

like stories where characters choose what is right JUST because it is the right thing

to do, but I have to confess that every now and then I I ALSO enjoy stories that

show the human struggle that comes from a wrong choice... or from NOT choosing

a right path. (Ok, glad to have the chance to clear that up, ha)

 

Most of my favorite films tend to feature tough customers who are doing wrong. I think

the reason I find these films to be so entertaining is because I'm one of the biggest

goody two shoes around and always have been. I would be one of the last persons

caught up in the situations seen in film noir. I'm much too boring and conservative

with my life and being.

 

 

Well thanks to you (and everyone) for making me feel welcome. It is a lot of fun so

far. And don't worry.. you can take the girl out of a "black and white" story... but you

can't take the "black and white" out of the girl. ha. I will LIKELY drive you NUTS

(if I have not already) with me WHY did he DO THAT? sort of comments on some

of these stories..ha.

 

I like your questioning! That tells me you are thinking for yourself. I loved it when you

stood up for "Rip" and "Vance." You "won," too. But, then again, you're always

going to win with me. I'm not to finish first. I'm film noir, remember?

 

 

Are you kidding??????????? I LOVED that happy little tune (though I have to

confess I had to look up what a ZITHER was...HA) I think it is a GREAT tool for

showing the "tension" in the story by placing it alongside such a lighthearted melody.

 

You really are unpredictable. Perfect. The zither made this Americano think he was

in a foreign land. :)

 

Well... you never can tell with me... I am a "mystery" sometimes..ha. Just when

I think I will LIKE a story... I end up getting so mad I want to throw something at

the tv and walk away.. ha. I take my movies WAY to personally sometimes. But

I am really looking forward to finding some new films to threaten my tv with...ha.

 

I'm curious to see a female western fan's take on film noir. I'd like to see Jackie's

take, too. She seems to come from the comedy world.

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Hey there my Grey, Grey Friend,

 

*I SHOULD have said that most people CHOOSE to be grey.*

 

But if you believe we are all sinners, that means we're all grey. Sin is black.

 

Well now you are really getting me back into the mud pit, ha. Actually, if we are all sinners, we are all (on some level) black. (as the Scriptures say, there is none, righteous, no not one) But that is a conversation for another venue. So instead I will try to go w/ your lead and agree that on some level most people are grey, or at the very least they ACT that way. But are they grey because they just can?t be anything else, or again is it because of some choice they have made?

 

I would have to know all the answers to all the questions, but I don't. And for me to

assume that I do, would be vain.

 

I agree. And so would anyone who thought that way. But what I was really getting at is not so much about knowing everything that OTHERS should do but rather knowing for one?s self what is right or wrong.

 

The asking what makes a film a film noir is a prime example of grey. I've had discussions

with people like ChiO, Dewey, and Arkadin about this and I think we all have our

divergences despite sharing very similar views. I tend to be the strictest with my

definition, mostly with time frame. But just because it's my belief, it doesn't make it

right. Who am I to tell someone else what they believe is wrong and that I'm

completely right? Anything I profess is self. The Philadelphia Flyers are the greatest

team ever because I say and believe that. Really? "This is how you raise a child." Oh,

it is? Who says? Lots of grey there.

 

Well, these are areas where opinions can and do vary and not so much ?moral truths? perhaps (And I would say that even about the ?how to raise a child? issue, believe it or not) All of these things COULD be open to interpretation because they are largely about opinion and life experience.

 

But what I am really getting at is more along the lines of what you have said HERE:

 

I think the best example is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." That's a very definitive statement, but we

humans tend to find some grey there. We've added asterisks.

 

That?s it exactly. WE have chosen to ?grey things up? in our own way, but the bottom line is, murder is murder. (And PS, MURDER is what is being discussed in that verse. I DO believe that it is clear elsewhere in the scriptures that there are times that to kill someone is NOT the same thing as to murder them. And that is not being grey, but rather putting a clearer definition on the term) Thou shalt not commit murder is pretty cut and dried. Yet people like to put their own spin on that sometimes in an attempt to justify their own behavior.

 

Just like lying. (Which is likely a more universal ?GREY?area for most folks) Dishonesty is likely among the most common ?black? behaviors people commit. But the fact of the matter is, with VERY few exceptions, a lie is a lie. No matter how you try to ?whiten? it into something grey. And everyone knows when they are being dishonest. It is just whether or not they choose to try and justify their own dishonest behavior that it becomes ?grey?.

 

Most of my favorite films tend to feature tough customers who are doing wrong. I think

the reason I find these films to be so entertaining is because I'm one of the biggest

goody two shoes around and always have been. I would be one of the last persons

caught up in the situations seen in film noir. I'm much too boring and conservative

with my life and being.

 

HA. Let?s compare BORING for BORING. I guarantee I would likely make YOUR life look about a gazillion times more reckless. Ha. And as for conservative. Well, I am sure we could go on and on about THAT one too, but I think THAT is also a topic best left unchatted her as well, HA.

 

I like your questioning! That tells me you are thinking for yourself

 

Ha, you know me. I?m ALWAYS thinkin?! ha. My problem is getting my thoughts out of my jumbled up brain to where they actually make SENSE. Ha.

 

I loved it when you stood up for "Rip" and "Vance." You "won," too.

 

OH I WON DID I???????? Is THAT why I felt so ALL ALONE on my little mountain top. HA.

 

But, then again, you're always going to win with me. I'm not to finish first. I'm film noir, remember?

 

HA. POOR Grey Dude, all alone in the world of shadows. (oh golly, tell me another one, ha)

 

You really are unpredictable. Perfect. The zither made this Americano think he was

in a foreign land.

 

I just liked how ?happy? it sounded. Plus I am a sucker for that sort of accoustic music. I really thought it added a LOT to the atmosphere of the story.

 

I'm curious to see a female western fan's take on film noir.

 

Well, I imagine you have been getting a FAR better representation of THAT all along from Miss G, but I DO expect I will have a slightly out of whack take on things from time to time. Ha.

 

I'd like to see Jackie's take, too. She seems to come from the comedy world.

 

Oh now, I KNOW you are going to be nice to MsFavell. We can?t have ANY nasty nonsense from you. I am SURE I can find SOME sort of use for my rope in here, even if this IS your HOME turf, ha.

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*You might even make an argument for "Butch Cassidy" falls in here.*

 

I think a lot of people would see the characters in Butch Cassidy as being more of a couple of anti-heroes, almost along the lines of Bonnie and Clyde. This was apparently rather a popular kind of character in the late 60s, or at least it seemed that way sometimes.

 

One could probably make an argument that many characters in noirs are themselves a kind of anti-hero, or a person who is doomed by forces outside his or her control to go against the law.

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>I'm curious to see a female western fan's take on film noir. I'd like to see Jackie's take, too. *She seems to come from the comedy world.*

 

Photobucket

 

>PS.... Jackie... NO one is going to "rub you out".

>*That's what you think!*

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ez8QMHwaog

 

>I have said many times on this board that I get more from an unhappy ending than a happy ending. I don't really learn much if all is well in the end. That's not to say I don't enjoy my share of happy endings, though.

 

>I believe a tragic ending just sticks with you more and it makes you think and feel more. A happy ending is more of a "phew, everything is okay and I don't have to worry about what happened beforehand."

 

Have I got a movie for you - it's called *Kings Go Forth*.... you are going to love it.....

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*Don't you think Bill Munny's (Clint Eastwood) intentions turned noble early on and guilt*

*forced him down the revenge path?*

 

I think Eastwood's desperation meets a noble cause. Even the nobility of it is questionable in that it is not about justice as it is revenge. And that revenge is born from the lack of justice by Daggett (Hackman.) Eastwood's ultimate turn comes after Freeman's death. You know it as soon as he takes that drink. All bets are off. It is not about the woman anymore it's about avenging Freeman's death.

 

I'm not even sure he gets the reward money but I'm not sure it matters.

 

One mild example might also be Wayne's "The Shootist." In this case it is a man who is reformed but he can't outrun his past. His reputation certainly keeps him from having any peace there. Where it is an old girlfriend come to cash in on his death or others come to find him he can't hide. Even his own death is caught up in his past.

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Your conversation reminded me of *Decision at Sundown* with Randolph Scott (cue chorus), which has some dark themes and certainly contains a wrenching twist in the plot.

 

Frank, if by some chance you ever were to sit down and watch this one, don't read any reviews first. I found it fascinating and I think you would absolutely love it. I don't want to say more....no spoilers at all.

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A favorite Western with a variation on the theme is Silver Lode (1954). Good Guy accused of murder, but claims self-defense; Bad Guy appears to represent the law, but his papers are forged; Bad Guy kills the local sheriff, but it looks to the locals that the Good Guy did it so now they think the Good Guy is the Bad Guy; Bad Guy is killed in a noirish accident (his bullet ricochets off of a bell), but it again appears that the Good Guy did it; and, it's all straightened out at the end by...a telegram forged by the Good Guy's bride-to-be.

 

With a cast of John Payne, Lizabeth Scott and Dan Duryea, and photography by John Alton, how can it not be at least near-noir? In color yet.

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Hey there, Wackie Jackie -- Looney Tunes always works with me. But I'm sure you didn't

need me to tell you that. :D

 

Have I got a movie for you - it's called Kings Go Forth.... you are going to love it.

 

Hey, I've seen that one! I liked it. It really is my kind of story and the ending works for me.

 

Your conversation reminded me of Decision at Sundown with Randolph Scott

(cue chorus), which has some dark themes and certainly contains a wrenching

twist in the plot.

 

Frank, if by some chance you ever were to sit down and watch this one, don't read

any reviews first. I found it fascinating and I think you would absolutely love it. I don't

want to say more....no spoilers at all.

 

Awful. Just awful. I have never been drawn to the Boetticher/Scott westerns but now you

name one and you do so with great mystery. I'll have to look into getting the box set

now. Rotten.

 

Ciao, ChiO, my main mann -- A favorite Western with a variation on the theme

is Silver Lode (1954). Good Guy accused of murder, but claims self-defense; Bad Guy

appears to represent the law, but his papers are forged; Bad Guy kills the local sheriff,

but it looks to the locals that the Good Guy did it so now they think the Good Guy is

the Bad Guy; Bad Guy is killed in a noirish accident (his bullet ricochets off of a bell),

but it again appears that the Good Guy did it; and, it's all straightened out at the end

by...a telegram forged by the Good Guy's bride-to-be.

 

Wow! I'm going to buy the cheap DVD, because what you described is fantastic.

 

Where's the score, Miss Gun for Hire? -- Gregory Peck's The Gunfighter is

another example. So is Man of the West.

 

Example of what?

 

Howdy, Cowboy Chris -- I think Eastwood's desperation meets a noble

cause. Even the nobility of it is questionable in that it is not about justice as it is

revenge. And that revenge is born from the lack of justice by Daggett (Hackman.)

Eastwood's ultimate turn comes after Freeman's death. You know it as soon as

he takes that drink. All bets are off. It is not about the woman anymore it's about

avenging Freeman's death.

 

It's been a little while since I've seen the film. I remember his wanting to avenge the

girl and then I thought he took on guilt for what happened to Ned Logan (Morgan Freeman).

But, you are right, revenge is what consumes him. I can see why, too.

 

One mild example might also be Wayne's "The Shootist." In this case it is a man

who is reformed but he can't outrun his past. His reputation certainly keeps him from

having any peace there. Where it is an old girlfriend come to cash in on his death

or others come to find him he can't hide. Even his own death is caught up in his past.

 

That's one I haven't seen yet. What you just wrote definitely piques my interest.

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>

> Where's the score, Miss Gun for Hire? -- Gregory Peck's The Gunfighter is

> another example. So is Man of the West.

>

> Example of what?

>

 

You need to take Ginko.

 

Example of the "bad man" trying to change, to find a normal life.

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You need to take Ginko.

 

You and your drugs!

 

Example of the "bad man" trying to change, to find a normal life.

 

Ohhhh! But I know westerns feature this. What I was curious about is the showing of bad

deeds that our hero has done. It seems like most westerns just intimate this and say the

good guy has a "past." Film noir is about showing the bad deeds.

 

3 Bad Men is a western where we see our "heroes" doing a bad deed before

they do good. As I was saying before, This Gun for Hire is a perfect example

of this.

 

I've also mentioned how Frenchy (Marlene Dietrich in Destry Rides Again) and

Debby (Gloria Grahame in The Big Heat) are rather similar. They are "bad" girls

who turn good. Or was it they were always good girls just mixed up with the bad? So

much grey! :P

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>

> Ohhhh! But I know westerns feature this. What I was curious about is the showing of bad

> deeds that our hero has done. It seems like most westerns just intimate this and say the

> good guy has a "past." Film noir is about showing the bad deeds.

>

 

Well, The Gunfighter is still a gunfighter, he just wants to change. We see what

Link is capable of in Man of the West. But westerns that are all about villains who

later change, not too many I can think of in the classic era.

 

Maybe Garden of Evil. All the men have disreputable pasts and are basically

mercenaries. Richard Widmark makes the most startling shift in values.

 

The Magnificent Seven?

 

>

> I've also mentioned how Frenchy (Marlene Dietrich in Destry Rides Again) and

> Debby (Gloria Grahame in The Big Heat) are rather similar. They are "bad" girls

> who turn good. Or was it they were always good girls just mixed up with the bad? So

> much grey! :P

 

Well, westerns ARE full of "saloon gals" with hearts of gold.

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