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rohanaka

A Walk on the Noir Side

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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

 

> *You ARE her! I've got the bullet wounds to prove it!*

 

I never hit you. I just lit you up. And you loved it.

 

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> *I think she did love Bart... so long as he was doing what she wanted him to do. So, in essence, she was more in love with herself and her desires.*

 

Yes, that's very good - she liked the reflection of herself in Bart's eyes. And isn't that what marriage is all about, Charlie Brown?

 

> *I think Bart helped to squash some of her wanton desires. But even Bart couldn't contain her at times.*

 

That's what I really liked. Uncontrollable rage and fear and desire. Acting on impulse every time. Hedonism. Wow. You don't get that too often in movies without it ending up funny.

 

Why are you using terms like "wanton desire" or "selfish" or "couldn't contain her"? Would you want to be contained? Isn't she just acting like a man? She's making business decisions. She's not putting people out of their homes for profit or anything. She's an entrepreneur, but there isn't a place for an Annie Laurie in big business in 1954. So she starts her own small business - she wields a cold and ruthless gun instead of a telephone. And she hires Bart to plan the takeover. What's wrong with that? ;)

 

 

> *Great point! I can definitely see this as a female fantasy. "Annie Laurie Starr" is basically the female "Scarface." And I know you found Scarface to be as interesting as I did.*

 

That's true. Both are tremendously exciting to watch. I like both movies for very much the same reason. There is something sexy about the violence in both movies.

 

> Yes, I do think there is truth to what she is saying. I think what scares her is losing control.

 

Who likes that? But the same case could be made for her liking to lose control....

 

> *Hey! We agree! She's selfish. She wants things to be her way. On one level it's healthy rebellion. It's female independence and freedom. But the level Annie plays it on it's selfishness. It's "the heck with everyone else."*

 

Except Bart :x

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Jul 29, 2010 10:15 PM

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I never hit you. I just lit you up. And you loved it.

 

That made me laugh! :D

 

Yes, that's very good - she liked the reflection of herself in Bart's eyes. And isn't that what marriage is all about, Charlie Brown?

 

I've never been married! But, no, I'd say love and marriage isn't about loving one's self more than your love. It's not about controlling your love.

 

That's what I really liked. Uncontrollable rage and fear and desire. Acting on impulse every time. Hedonism. Wow. You don't get that too often in movies without it ending up funny.

 

:D And that's a huge reason why film noir is my favorite. I view them as morality tales. And with morality comes... SIN! Bring it on!

 

Why are you using terms like "wanton desire" or "selfish" or "couldn't contain her"? Would you want to be contained?

 

Would I want to be contained? Yes. But it's to what degree that matters the most. Annie is off the charts in her wanton desires.

 

Isn't she just acting like a man?

 

Back then? Yes. Today? Both. We've got a lot of "Annie Laurie Starrs," nowadays.

 

She's making business decisions. She's not putting people out of their homes for profit or anything. She's an entrepreneur, but there isn't a place for an Annie Laurie in big business in 1954. So she starts her own small business - she wields a cold and ruthless gun instead of a telephone. And she hires Bart to plan the takeover. What's wrong with that? ;)

 

Nothing... except that it's against the law and people are killed in the process. But, you're right, I'm not down with the pure selfishness of big business "crime," either. It's "faceless," which it makes seem all right.

 

That's true. Both are tremendously exciting to watch. I like both movies for very much the same reason. There is something sexy about the violence in both movies.

 

There's a rush to the violence in Gun Crazy. it's definitely attached to the sex drive. Scarface's violence feels gleeful, very "boyish."

 

Yes, I do think there is truth to what she is saying. I think what scares her is losing control.

 

Who likes that?

 

Likes it? Not many. But I feel that if one is to share a life with another, it's a necessity. If you're not willing to sacrifice, there is a title you can choose to keep: "single."

 

But the same case could be made for her liking to lose control....

 

Yes. Very good point. The two seem to be conjoined.

 

Except Bart

 

So if Bart chose to leave Annie, do you think she would have looked to win him back?

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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> I never hit you. I just lit you up. And you loved it.

>

> That made me laugh! :D

 

:D:D:D

 

 

 

> Except Bart

>

> *So if Bart chose to leave Annie, do you think she would have looked to win him back?*

 

I don't know what would happen to Annie if Bart left her. I think she would completely fall apart. I don't know.... part of me says she would kill him. Another choice would that she would take herself out in a blaze of glory. She is very animal, so she might just crawl in a hole and die.

 

Oh.... wait. that's what she actually did.

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She is very animal, so she might just crawl in a hole and die. Oh.... wait. that's what she actually did.

 

He didn't leave her!

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Howsa Grimesy - ?I loved what you wrote about ?Gun Crazy?, Lively Gal. It was just as dizzying as watching lovers on the run. Great pacing.?

 

As always...I thank you! Just trying to keep up with the Joneseseseses.

 

"I can tell you that I was turned on by Peggy. I love her hips in those tight-fighting clothes. And those hats! Awesome."

 

She was a nice little package, though I wasn?t quite into her look as a femme fatale. The screen cap below with her eyes wide open is quite demented. I liked her dastardly deeds more than her look.

 

"Female power and control. Uh-huh. Ahhhh, film noir."

 

...And not just in Noir, Bub!

 

?So if Bart chose to leave Annie, do you think she would have looked to win him back??

 

?I don't know what would happen to Annie if Bart left her. I think she would completely fall apart. I don't know.... part of me says she would kill him. Another choice would that she would take herself out in a blaze of glory. She is very animal, so she might just crawl in a hole and die.? - JackFavell

 

Annie's not suicidal. She would never hurt herself. She is a homicidal maniac. I believe if they parted in the beginning of the movie, she wouldn?t have felt it. She was ready to give him the

kiss off then. There was Barry Kroeger but he didn?t have the sweetness of Dall?s Bart. By the

end of the movie...she had some of whatever passed as her emotion, vested in Bart. If he tried

to leave her, she probably would have unloaded a cartridge into him.

 

Hey hey Jackaaaaaay - ?...She liked the reflection of herself in Bart's eyes. And isn't that what marriage is all about, Charlie Brown??

 

There?s something in what you say ?Lucy.? My ex- liked me not to wear my sunglasses when we greeted each other; ...liked the love light in my eyes.

 

?She's making business decisions. She's not putting people out of their homes for profit or anything. She's an entrepreneur, but there isn't a place for an Annie Laurie in big business in 1954. So she starts her own small business - she wields a cold and ruthless gun instead of a telephone.?

 

Funny, in reading your comment...it reminds me of how Stanwyck subjugated her drive and ambition to further her husband's (Sterling Hayden) career in "Crime of Passion."

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> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

 

 

> Annie's not suicidal. She would never hurt herself. She is a homicidal maniac. I believe if they parted in the beginning of the movie, she wouldnt have felt it. She was ready to give him the

> kiss off then. There was Barry Kroeger but he didnt have the sweetness of Dalls Bart. By the

> end of the movie...she had some of whatever passed as her emotion, vested in Bart. If he tried

> to leave her, she probably would have unloaded a cartridge into him.

 

She would have dumped him faster than a hot potato at the beginning of the movie to move on to greener pastures. And it would have been a betrayal of the worst kind for Bart to leave her later... yes, you are right, I am sure she would have plugged him.

 

> Hey hey Jackaaaaaay - ...She liked the reflection of herself in Bart's eyes. And isn't that what marriage is all about, Charlie Brown?

>

> Theres something in what you say Lucy. My ex- liked me not to wear my sunglasses when we greeted each other; ...liked the love light in my eyes.

 

That's really nice. if we can see the image we like of ourselves in our true love's eyes...maybe we can be closer to the person we truly want to be. And we all want to be wanted. Maybe Annie Laurie saw a reflection she liked - a powerful woman .... in Bart's eyes. She certainly did not get that from the heel she was with before.

 

> Funny, in reading your comment...it reminds me of how Stanwyck subjugated her drive and ambition to further her husband's (Sterling Hayden) career in "Crime of Passion."

 

Agh! I haven't seen it. Another trip to youtube and Netflix....

 

It's funny., though.. ... all during this conversation I've been thinking of Stanwyck....mostly in *Clash By Night* and *The Furies*. I have no solid comparisons yet, but Stany just keeps popping up in my thoughts when I think about Annie Laurie Starr.

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"Agh! I haven't seen it. Another trip to youtube and Netflix...."

 

Well get thee to a video store, Jack! Wha'cha waitin' for? I thought "Crime of Passion" was pretty good...and said a lot about a woman not pursuing her true vocation (especially if it has nothing

to do with baking cookies and darning socks). Maybe I could get my Dad to watch this.

 

"It's funny., though.. ... all during this conversation I've been thinking of Stanwyck....mostly in 'Clash By Night' and 'The Furies.' I have no solid comparisons yet, but Stany just keeps popping up in my thoughts when I think about Annie Laurie Starr."

 

Missy and Bette Davis were two of the strongest women I knew in movies. They've had their share of plugging men full o' holes...deservedly so, I'm sure. They all of them certainly did bring their own brand of femininity and callousness to those parts: Stanwyck, Davis, Jane Greer, Ava, Rita, Astor, Ann Savage, Marie Windsor, Lana, Tierney, Claire Trevor...etc.

 

Hot and cold, soft and steely. Femme fatales. I love 'em. Well... ya gotta love them...at your own risk.

 

:x

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Ha! Love em or leave em...it really doesn't matter. It all comes down to the same thing. Two guys standing over you, saying you used to be a big shot.

 

Photobucket

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Hey, do any of you guys think that in GUN CRAZY Peggy Cummins looks and especially sounds like Judy Garland? To me, that makes the film even more perverse--in a good way, of course!

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I can see a vague resemblance - they have a very similar nose. I don't usually play the what if game, but wouldn't it have been cool if Judy had played in Gun Crazy or something like it? I mean, I would never want anyone but Peggy Cummins here, but the idea of Judy doing a noir just tantalizes me, now that you mention it. :D

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I don't see any resemblance between Peggy and Judy, Kingrat. But I could envision Judy playing the part of Annie Laurie Starr (of course the movie-going public and Louis B. Mayer would never accept it, though). When things started to unwind for our hapless couple, I could see Judy getting more and more high strung, unhinged, hysterical...and manic.

 

LOOK OUT!!! Oh crap, Dorothy's got a gun and she's just shot Toto!!! :-(

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July, 2010 is coming to a close. Sniff, sniff. This has been The Best Month in Crime-Noir DVD releases in a long, long time.

 

*Armored Car Robbery. Backfire. Brothers Rico. City Of Fear. Cornered.*

 

Four Charlie Chans in a TCM Collection Series, including 3 of the last Sidney Toler's and the first Roland Winters effort.

 

*Crime In The Streets. Deadline At Dawn. Desperate. Dial 1-1-1-9. Human Desire. Phenix City Story. Union Station.*

 

Unfortunately, these are all part of 3 box-set collections, and not much is listed for the future 3-4 months. There are only about a hundred left, DVD makers! Let's snap to it...you can do it! Gotta get the Warren Williams' *Lone Wolf* collection out there. *The Saint*. *The Falcon*. *Crime Doctor*. Plenty of series if ya wanna do more collections! Or if you marketeers think you have to shove a whole bunch into more box-sets, fine. The month before, Hammer put out a good set, too.

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I'm just glad we got those box sets, Ollie. There's hardly any "new" classic films being released to DVD. Thank goodness the ones that are are film noir. They seem to be selling pretty good, too. The Warner box set is #385 at Amazon. I still have to get that one. Hopefully, tomorrow.

 

I'll probably get the Kim Novak box set that is coming out next week (August 3rd), too.

 

And one of the next BIG film noir deals is on TCM. September 20th:

 

6:00 PM (EST) Secret Beyond the Door

 

FOLLOWED BY

 

8:00 PM (EST) The Prowler

 

pushover7.jpg

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Ollie, you should like the Kim Novak set. I know you have all the films but still....it's Kimmy!

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My golly... l have been so busy lately I TOTALLY missed all the new comments in here re: Annie and Bart. Glad to see you came back for a bit more to say, Mr. Grey.. I thought maybe you had ditched us. ha. :D

 

I think she did love Bart... so long as he was doing what she wanted him to do. So, in essence, she was more in love with herself and her desires. She also seemed to cling to Bart when in fear, too. She was nothing but childish.

 

I think you are pretty close on this.. she did love him. But it was all about HER for sure. She also needed him too. (at least after he finally gave in and joined her crime spree plans) I think if he had walked out that door (when she told him if he left to kiss her goodbye because she'd be gone later) it would have been IT between them and she'd have let him go... but once he stayed.. and they became partners in crime along with their marriage... she became as dependent on him as he did on her.. and not just to help w/ the shooting. I think she knew that even though he did not WANT to be her co-conspirator.. he DID love her and he was not ever going to be mean to her (the way others probably had been before) so she did value him... but it was a self-centered love sort of "she loved him because he loved her" kind of thing.

 

On one hand a "strong" woman. On the other, a "weak" woman. Which is she?

 

Both.. definitely. It just depended on what she needed to be strong about. In some ways she was tough as nails.. but in others.. she was VERYweak and even possibly co-dependent upon him. That is one thing that I think makes this all the more sad... Because this is the way good marriages can work too. (one person is strong where the other is weak... and vice versa.. the two people needing one another's strengths to comple each other and to compensate for their own weaknesses.) If they had not chosen a criminal path... and if they had a stronger foundation (in terms of personal character) they might have had a very happy life together.

 

Which is deadlier?

 

Ha... well.. that IS the question isn't it? ha. :D I guess it all depends on what you plan to do with EITHER item after you make the purchase. ha. (PS: nice catch on the contrasting store windows)

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Jul 31, 2010 11:35 PM

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Good evening, Mrs. Black and White -- Am I under arrest... again?

 

I thought maybe you had ditched us. ha. :D

 

I've been known to do that. :D

 

but it was a self-centered love sort of "she loved him because he loved her" kind of thing.

 

That's quite profound. I like it. Can you pull someone's trigger?

 

Both.. definitely. It just depended on what she needed to be strong about. In some ways she was tough as nails.. but in others.. she was VERYweak and even possibly co-dependent upon him. That is one thing that I think makes this all the more sad... Because this is the way good marriages can work too. (one person is strong where the other is weak... and vice versa.. the two people needing one another's strengths to comple each other and to compensate for their own weaknesses.) If they had not chosen a criminal path... and if they had a stronger foundation (in terms of personal character) they might have had a very happy life together.

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh, I don't think gals like Annie are thinking happy home. They'll never be content. It's not just the money, it's the thrill. Although, I'd love to be at those P.T.A. meetings with Annie. It would almost be like seeing Jackie in action. Almost.

 

Ha... well.. that IS the question isn't it? ha. :D I guess it all depends on what you plan to do with EITHER item after you make the purchase. ha. (PS: nice catch on the contrasting store windows)

 

;) A gun can be controlled. A girl cannot. Bart felt supreme confidence and control whenever he handled a gun. It was quite the opposite when he handled a girl. Can you imagine him with Miss G? He would be slapped and kicked every two seconds! "You look lovely today." SLAP! "You didn't say it the right way! Don't you ever do that again!"

 

guncrazy19.jpg

 

guncrazy20.jpg

 

I bet you could never guess where I fall. :D

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Hello there my DEAR Mr Grey! :D

 

Am I under arrest... again?

 

The better question is... SHOULD you be??? (and of course we all know the answer!) ha :P

 

I've been known to do that.

 

Ha.. well who am I to talk, really? I have been pretty hit and miss on my posting around her lately too.. so I guess I can let you off the hook JUST this once, ha.

 

That's quite profound. I like it. Can you pull someone's trigger?

 

Ha.. profound? Me? That would be a first for sure. ha. But to maybe get closer to the "definition" of her sort of love I was going for.. it was all very "fourth grade". ha. I guess I mean it reminded me of a little kid almost. (I will if you will, etc) She would likely not have taken ANY step toward loving anyone else unless she felt that person loved her first. And even if it was "love" she felt for him, her version of love was very much a form of self love too. She really only thought about what she wanted and clearly did NOT have his best interest at heart. (which is something that a person who felt real, adult, mature love would not do) and she did not have any desires for him that did not include meeting her own first. (so again.. she was very "self-centered" in her love for him.)

 

I don't think gals like Annie are thinking happy home. They'll never be content. It's not just the money, it's the thrill.

 

Oh yeah, I am totally with you on that. I do not think she'd have EVER been happy going that route as she was.. but if she'd had more moral fiber to her.. more character within her character so to speak.. they MIGHT have stood a chance. (because I really do think Bart would not have gone down the path he did except for HER influence on him.. and her influence only.)

 

A gun can be controlled. A girl cannot

 

Ha.. and that is how is SHOULD be. A girl is a PERSON after all and gun is not. ha. And yet isn't interesting that BART was able to be controlled simply by his desire for BOTH. (and that is why I say that his behavior was so much more frustrating to me than hers. She was who she was.. but at least she was able to be more or less figured out. (in some ways anyway) HE on the other hand did have a conscience that was active and working.. and really had no excuse except that he was as Jackie and I mentioned earlier.. just too weak willed to listen to it. (UGH, I hate it when that happens.)

 

He would be slapped and kicked every two seconds!

 

Some people NEED to be slapped and kicked at LEAST every two seconds.

 

I bet you could never guess where I fall.

 

For you.. I'd have to say... hmmm... every two seconds is a good start!! HA!!!!!!!!!!! :P:P:P

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Frank, great screen clips. I would only counsel fellas to examine the parties who dish out advice. Dressed like that?!! And taking advice from THEM?!! Uh... hmmm... Definitely from the "For What It's Worth" Department.

 

As for the new Kim Novak collection, there are a couple of films that haven't been on DVD so, yes, those made the box-set a required purchase alone. Wifey wants to use MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT against me, somehow. I keep arguing, "Too late! We're already married!" and she tightens the manacles on me more and says, "Well, you're certainly not getting out THESE this time!"

 

But she's always saying that. Or things like, "Darling, the neighbors are here with their torches and pitchforks again - I think I'll give you to them this time..."

 

6a00d83519315253ef0120a52932e6970c-400wi

 

(The original caption to this pix: "We're welcoming MissG's good health!" I think that was it. Something like that.)

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(The original caption to this pix: "We're welcoming MissG's good health!" I think that was it. Something like that.)

 

Are you sure that mob isn't the guys she slapped... yesterday.

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What's the score, Quiet Gal? -- Am I under arrest... again?

 

The better question is... SHOULD you be??? (and of course we all know the answer!) ha :P

 

No! I'm the most innocent of all! Just ask anyone!

 

Ha.. profound? Me? That would be a first for sure. ha. But to maybe get closer to the "definition" of her sort of love I was going for.. it was all very "fourth grade". ha. I guess I mean it reminded me of a little kid almost. (I will if you will, etc)

 

Don't you think her attraction to Bart was that he topped her? This turned her on. Then he didn't take her ring. Nice guy? Confident? Hard to get?

 

She would likely not have taken ANY step toward loving anyone else unless she felt that person loved her first.

 

Now that is really interesting. But don't we all approach love this way? Do we make any moves without an inkling of someone having feelings for us? Where it gets tricky is trying to guess how much they love us. And was it love that triggered Annie? Or was it something more "animal," as ChiO wrote?

 

And even if it was "love" she felt for him, her version of love was very much a form of self love too.

 

Yes, I do think she was seeing the possibilities with Bart. She was turned on by his talent.

 

She really only thought about what she wanted and clearly did NOT have his best interest at heart. (which is something that a person who felt real, adult, mature love would not do)

 

Oh, I don't know. I know some "adults" who think self quite a bit within a loving relationship/marriage.

 

and she did not have any desires for him that did not include meeting her own first. (so again.. she was very "self-centered" in her love for him.)

 

Very nicely put. I completely agree with that. She had designs. You women and your designs!

 

Oh yeah, I am totally with you on that. I do not think she'd have EVER been happy going that route as she was.. but if she'd had more moral fiber to her.. more character within her character so to speak.. they MIGHT have stood a chance. (because I really do think Bart would not have gone down the path he did except for HER influence on him.. and her influence only.)

 

Well, I do agree with you about Bart. He was completely under the spell of Annie, just as he was with the gun, as a boy. He lacked self-confidence in so many areas of his life, but the gun gave him confidence, as did Annie. He was a "somebody" with the gun and Annie. Without them, he was a lonely soul, looking for a purpose. Working for Remington would have been just a job to him. But working for Remington for Annie, gives him real purpose. Nothing matters until something matters. Trust me, I know this feeling.

 

Remember, Bart lost both of his parents as a child.

 

A gun can be controlled. A girl cannot

 

Ha.. and that is how is SHOULD be. A girl is a PERSON after all and gun is not. ha.

 

No! Y'all need some reins! At least some safety locks!

 

And yet isn't interesting that BART was able to be controlled simply by his desire for BOTH. (and that is why I say that his behavior was so much more frustrating to me than hers. She was who she was.. but at least she was able to be more or less figured out. (in some ways anyway) HE on the other hand did have a conscience that was active and working.. and really had no excuse except that he was as Jackie and I mentioned earlier.. just too weak willed to listen to it. (UGH, I hate it when that happens.)

 

You and Jackie are right, Bart is very weak-willed. He's lonely which makes him vulnerable to any kind of spark. He goes from a real low to a serious high; rather manic. The swing is dangerous. He's also one who is into commitment. He won't abandon his love. He's going to cling to it. He wouldn't give the gun up and he's not going to give Annie up. His life revolves around them. Yes, that can be very dangerous.

 

Some people NEED to be slapped and kicked at LEAST every two seconds.

 

Hey! I think Movieman is a true gentleman. What's wrong with you?!

 

I bet you could never guess where I fall.

 

For you.. I'd have to say... hmmm... every two seconds is a good start!! HA!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:P

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What's the score, Quiet Gal?

 

OH I have no idea.. likely something like: Grey Dudes 20... old worn out black and white gals... ZIP!

 

(The last couple of weeks have been so busy.. I am more or less done in.. ha) But don't get used to that score... SOMEDAY I hope to bounce back. Ha. :D

 

Don't you think her attraction to Bart was that he topped her? This turned her on. Then he didn't take her ring. Nice guy? Confident? Hard to get?

 

Oh he certainly had her interested at that point. (and I think she had him hooked as well) It was a flirtation that led to something more pretty quickly, I am sure.

 

But don't we all approach love this way? Do we make any moves without an inkling of someone having feelings for us? Where it gets tricky is trying to guess how much they love us

 

I agree some folks approach love this way.. but it is not a LASTING love. Nobody wants to get left emptyhanded by someone they WANT to love them.. so I am sure (at least starting out) most "romances" begin somewhat along those lines. But they do not STAY that way... or at least they shouldn't. (not if a person truly understands the deeper meanings behind what it means to love someone else more than you love yourself.) Annie never got there.. and I don't think she ever would.

 

And was it love that triggered Annie? Or was it something more "animal," as ChiO wrote?

 

No.. I likely did not express my thoughts on this clearly.. I don't think LOVE was what she had in her heart for him (at least in the beginning) but I do think eventually as much as she COULD understand love.. she eventually cared for him. But never in anyway more than she cared about hersefl.

 

I know some "adults" who think self quite a bit within a loving relationship/marriage

 

Well... as fun as it might be, ha, I won't go down that road with you because it would be a LONG a twisty one for sure (and did I mention I am an old worn out woman?) ha.. I will say however that I imagine there are a LOT of self-loving people who are in a marriage with someone else is far LESS self-loving. Because that is about the only way a situation like that (where someone loves themself more) could really work. If BOTH parties cared more about their own wishes and selfish desires than about the other person's... that is not the kind of marriage that tends to last too long.

 

You and Jackie are right, Bart is very weak-willed. He's lonely which makes him vulnerable to any kind of spark. He goes from a real low to a serious high; rather manic. The swing is dangerous. He's also one who is into commitment. He won't abandon his love. He's going to cling to it. He wouldn't give the gun up and he's not going to give Annie up. His life revolves around them. Yes, that can be very dangerous.

 

You have it exactly right.

 

Hey! I think Movieman is a true gentleman.

 

Again.. ha.. you have it EXACTLY right.. but we both know I was NOT talking about HIM, now was I??? ha.

 

What's wrong with you?!

 

Oh believe me.. you do not have enough hours in your day to hear the answer to that question... :D

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>Hey! I think Movieman is a true gentleman.

 

>Again.. ha.. you have it EXACTLY right.. but we both know I was NOT talking about HIM, now was I??? ha.

 

 

I love being talked about when I'm not around. It's nice to be thought of. (thank you both for the complement.)

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