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Cutting scenes out of movies


Mikey48
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Yesterday I watched Never Too Late on TCM, a movie that I've seen 5 or 6 times since it came out in 1965. It stars Paul Ford, Connie Stevens, Maureen O'Sullivan and Jim Hutton and is a comedy about an elderly woman who discovers she is pregnant. I hadn't seen the movie in many years, and I was curious about how much of the dialog I would remember before the lines were delivered (quite a bit.) I like that TCM shows movies straight through without commercial interruption. But one thing I found strange is that several scenes were cut out of it early on. Paul Ford plays the owner of a lumber yard and building supply company. In the original movie there are some very funny scenes involving a toilet that was being inspected by the Jim Hutton character. Later on the toilet winds up inside their house and there's another funny scene involving Hutton having to suddenly stash the toilet in a downstairs closet when company comes over.The problem is that neither of these two scenes was shown in the recent TCM airing. I'm sure this is the correct movie, because the same toilet is used in a practical joke later in the movie when Ford and Hutton get drunk and put the toilet in their neighbor's front yard and light it up. THAT scene was in the TCM showing, but the other 2 scenes were not and seemed conspicuous by their absence. Does TCM routinely clip scenes for time reasons or some other reason? There wasn't anything particularly risque about these 2 scenes, and they were the funniest scenes in the movie IMO. There may have been more that were deleted for all I know. I haven't watched that many movies lately on TCM, so I don't know if any of the ones I've taped but haven't ever watched might have scenes deleted that I wouldn't know about. If anyone can enlighten me on this, I would appreciate some insight. Thanx.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I do not believe TCM edits anything other than their own productions. They show what they get and sometimes edits have been made along the way. 

That said, the scenes you are talking about were in the movie. 

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2 minutes ago, sewhite2000 said:

Of course, TCM's long-running motto is "uncut and commercial free". I believe they themselves don't ever edit a film for time or contenet. But they can only show the prints they receive.

then they should not be of a mind to show incomplete prints.

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3 hours ago, Mikey48 said:

Yesterday I watched Never Too Late on TCM, a movie that I've seen 5 or 6 times since it came out in 1965. It stars Paul Ford, Connie Stevens, Maureen O'Sullivan and Jim Hutton and is a comedy about an elderly woman who discovers she is pregnant. I hadn't seen the movie in many years, and I was curious about how much of the dialog I would remember before the lines were delivered (quite a bit.) I like that TCM shows movies straight through without commercial interruption. But one thing I found strange is that several scenes were cut out of it early on. Paul Ford plays the owner of a lumber yard and building supply company. In the original movie there are some very funny scenes involving a toilet that was being inspected by the Jim Hutton character. Later on the toilet winds up inside their house and there's another funny scene involving Hutton having to suddenly stash the toilet in a downstairs closet when company comes over.The problem is that neither of these two scenes was shown in the recent TCM airing. I'm sure this is the correct movie, because the same toilet is used in a practical joke later in the movie when Ford and Hutton get drunk and put the toilet in their neighbor's front yard and light it up. THAT scene was in the TCM showing, but the other 2 scenes were not and seemed conspicuous by their absence. Does TCM routinely clip scenes for time reasons or some other reason? There wasn't anything particularly risque about these 2 scenes, and they were the funniest scenes in the movie IMO. There may have been more that were deleted for all I know. I haven't watched that many movies lately on TCM, so I don't know if any of the ones I've taped but haven't ever watched might have scenes deleted that I wouldn't know about. If anyone can enlighten me on this, I would appreciate some insight. Thanx.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  Will Happily Take Correction on this if i err but Sometimes There Are a couple or so different/alternate Versions ("Cuts") in Existence of a Given Particular Film...

 

..Ten Little Indians and Kiss Me Deadly Immediately Pop in my Mind ..

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The version of Never Too Late (1965) on WatchTCM has the 2 'missing' scenes at around 51:00 and 55:20.

The run time of the film there is 1:44:23, which is pretty close to the 105 minute run time listed on IMDB and Wikipedia.

Of course, something might have happened during the live broadcast to change the presentation.  Back in February I was watching Out of Bounds (1986) early in the morning on TCM when scenes were skipped at the end and there was a black screen for 10 minutes.

WatchTCM is showing Never Too Late through July 30.

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12 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

then they should not be of a mind to show incomplete prints.

If there's not an uncut version available, then that would mean they wouldn't show it at all.  Sometimes pieces of films are just irretrievably lost (Garland's A Star Is Born is a well-known example)

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I think that they would edit some of the X-Rated Midnight Cowboy or the male **** hanging out all over the place in The Last Picture Show.  They might just blur them.  As far as uncut version, a 4-hour version of Justice League.  Robert Duvall just said that his line was cut out in To Kill a Mockingbird.  And there are multiple ending and the director chooses which ones to release in theaters (at that time).  Fatal Attraction and the mixed-up Bogey & Bacall to Chandler:  The Big Sleep.  I have a DVD with the two different versions on different sides.

Now another thing related to uncut versions are showing films that were meant for a wide screen in a bit of a condensed form to preserve the image (otherwise, they have to cut out part of the picture and you lose the effect).  TCM used to do that also.

interesting comments about prints because Eddie M. on film noir has often stated how his organization has found different prints.  And, TCM isn't commercial free anymore because they are selling wine - pairing a wine with a film, selling books, DVDs/CDs, and other merchandise (in addition to asking us to download an app).

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you know I try to be agreeable as I possibly can because almost no one wants to agree with me because I'm viewed as some sort of a pest and when I am right, like I am here, nobody wants to acknowledge it...

so lets see if I got this right. we can't even expect tcm to know if their movie prints are whole or cut up?

gimme a break. of course they should know. they're these supposed unmatched film experts who know everything like if a mouse farted underneath the movie camera during the closeup on the wicked witch of the west's shoes.

:D

Pin on All-Time Fav Movies, Theatre & Dance Performances

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20 minutes ago, NipkowDisc said:

you know I try to be agreeable as I possibly can because almost no one wants to agree with me because I'm viewed as some sort of a pest and when I am right, like I am here, nobody wants to acknowledge it...

so lets see if I got this right. we can't even expect tcm to know if their movie prints are whole or cut up?

gimme a break. of course they should know. they're these supposed unmatched film experts who know everything like if a mouse farted underneath the movie camera during the closeup on the wicked witch of the west's shoes.

:D

 

I agree with you here (hey,  there is always a first time!);    Of course a network like TCM,  where their entire focus is movies,  should know what version they are leasing. 

There is only one dependency here;  do those that own a film (e.g.  a studio,  Disney, etc...),  know what version(s),  they have to lease?    

One would think they would;   E.g.  the 1931 Garbo film Mata Hari:    There is the initial 1931 released,  pre-code version.    But the film was re-released after the Production code was enforced in July 1934 and MGM had to cut the film to get it passed by the censors.     Therefore there are two "legit" studio released versions.       

When TCM shows a film like Mata Hari they should know which of these two they have leased! 

 

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1 hour ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I agree with you here (hey,  there is always a first time!);    Of course a network like TCM,  where their entire focus is movies,  should know what version they are leasing. 

There is only one dependency here;  do those that own a film (e.g.  a studio,  Disney, etc...),  know what version(s),  they have to lease?    

One would think they would;   E.g.  the 1931 Garbo film Mata Hari:    There is the initial 1931 released,  pre-code version.    But the film was re-released after the Production code was enforced in July 1934 and MGM had to cut the film to get it passed by the censors.     Therefore there are two "legit" studio released versions.       

When TCM shows a film like Mata Hari they should know which of these two they have leased! 

 

There would be if MGM  didn't cut the the "master" negative and call in all the copies and put them in a vault where they might have eventually deteriorated.  But that's just a guess.  ;) 

Sepiatone

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I think TCM typically has a pretty good record of showing films as they were intended to be released.  I recently watched A Farewell to Arms with my mom on Amazon Prime, and it was quite different from the version I remembered watching on TCM some years ago. This version arranged the scenes to indicate Gary Cooper and Helen Hays didn't have sex until after they were married, and it was missing altogether a scene that made a strong impression on me from my original viewing, of Hayes borderline hysterically laugh-crying after they've had sex for the first time, clearly while unmarried. Either my memory is really faulty, or what I watched on TCM was the original version and the one on Amazon Prime was post-Code revisions.

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12 minutes ago, sewhite2000 said:

I think TCM typically has a pretty good record of showing films as they were intended to be released.  I recently watched A Farewell to Arms with my mom on Amazon Prime, and it was quite different from the version I remembered watching on TCM some years ago. This version arranged the scenes to indicate Gary Cooper and Helen Hays didn't have sex until after they were married, and it was missing altogether a scene that made a strong impression on me from my original viewing, of Hayes borderline hysterically laugh-crying after they've had sex for the first time, clearly while unmarried. Either my memory is really faulty, or what I watched on TCM was the original version and the one on Amazon Prime was post-Code revisions.

To me saying "as they were intended to be released",   is confusing.      My example of Mata Hari is why;   both the pre-code and post-code versions were released by MGM.   I.e. MGM intended to release both versions.      The same is true for versions made-for-release overseas versus those versions for US audiences.   

As for Farewell to Arms;    Your memory is sound!   Read this:

This is the original ending of the film when released to international audiences in 1932. Some prints for American audiences had a happy ending, where Catherine did not die, and some were ambiguous; some theaters were offered a choice.[6] The censors were concerned about more than just the heroine's death.[7][8] Versions proliferated when a much more powerful Motion Picture Production Code got hold of the picture before various re-releases to film and television, not to mention the effects of a change of ownership to Warner Bros. and lapse into the public domain. This is why film critic and Turner Classic Movies host Ben Mankiewicz, after an airing of the original version, summed up the film's history as "confusing."

According to TCM.com: " ‘A Farewell to Arms’ originally ran 89 minutes, and was later cut to 78 minutes for a 1938 re-issue. The 89-minute version (unseen since the original theatrical run in 1932 and long thought to be lost) was released on DVD in 1999 by Image Entertainment, mastered from a nitrate print located in the David O. Selznick vaults." [9]

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7 minutes ago, sewhite2000 said:

As they were ... originally edited?

I don't know if "originally" works because that implies there is such as thing as an "original" version.     E.g.  the "original" one for US release or the "original" one for release in Britain? 

I guess that was my overall point;    for clarity,  when discussing a specific film,   it helps if one is very specific as to what version one is talking about.     This is especially necessary when discussing films like A Farewell to Arms and many other pre-code films;   E.g.   what Wiki had:  unseen since the original theatrical run in 1932 and long thought to be lost) 

PS:  and how Ben and TCM presented that version of A Farewell to Arms is a good example that TCM does get-it-right (knows what version they are showing and explains that to viewers).     

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A little off topic, but over Christmas in the UK I watched Robin Hood Prince of Thieves on broadcast TV and it was a completely different film.  New scenes, old scenes edited differently and new plot points (the witch is the Sherriff's mother).  Guessing its an issue of what rights the UK has for the film.

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3 minutes ago, Shank Asu said:

A little off topic, but over Christmas in the UK I watched Robin Hood Prince of Thieves on broadcast TV and it was a completely different film.  New scenes, old scenes edited differently and new plot points (the witch is the Sherriff's mother).  Guessing its an issue of what rights the UK has for the film.

This from Wiki (initial US release in 1991 was a 143 minute version):

A 155-minute extended cut of the film was released on home media in 2009. The extended cut shows in detail the conspirators' plot to steal the throne from King Richard, as well as further exploring the relationship between the Sheriff and Mortianna. In one scene, Mortianna explains that she killed the true George Nottingham as a baby and replaced him with her own infant son, revealing that she is in fact the Sheriff's real mother. Also included are scenes which show Mortianna instructing Nottingham to remove the tongue of John Tordoff's scribe character, forcing him to communicate via chalk-board in subsequent scenes. Nottingham, however, only pretends he removed the Scribe's tongue as the Scribe later provides spoken directions to Robin and Azeem when they pursue the kidnapped Marian

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16 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

then they should not be of a mind to show incomplete prints.

I am relatively sure that they show the best prints available.

Are they to not show a movie because the only print which they can lease was edited for television years ago? 

I have seen that TCM plans to air: Blade Runner: The Final Cut (1982) as part of the neo-noir theme this month. There are many versions of this movie. There was the International version, the version released to theaters in America and a Workprint which received some circulation. The version released on video tape prior to 1993 contain scenes not in the theatrical version. A "Director's Cut" which was neither approved nor liked by the director was released also. "The Final Cut" version is actually a version released in: 2007 and contains edits and scenes unlike any other version. 

Which would you consider a: "complete" print acceptable for airing?

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1 hour ago, SansFin said:

I am relatively sure that they show the best prints available.

Are they to not show a movie because the only print which they can lease was edited for television years ago? 

I have seen that TCM plans to air: Blade Runner: The Final Cut (1982) as part of the neo-noir theme this month. There are many versions of this movie. There was the International version, the version released to theaters in America and a Workprint which received some circulation. The version released on video tape prior to 1993 contain scenes not in the theatrical version. A "Director's Cut" which was neither approved nor liked by the director was released also. "The Final Cut" version is actually a version released in: 2007 and contains edits and scenes unlike any other version. 

Which would you consider a: "complete" print acceptable for airing?

I assume the question here is rhetorical.   My POV is that there is no such concept as a "complete" print. 

Different ones,   as you point out with Blade Runner,   but it would be folly for anyone to say which one is the "complete" one.     

I guess one could argue that a version that has all the scenes,   intact,  as found in every other version,   but includes some additional scenes, not shown in any other version,   is the most "complete".        But I would still never use the term "complete" when discussing different versions. 

 

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14 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I assume the question here is rhetorical.   My POV is that there is no such concept as a "complete" print. 

Different ones,   as you point out with Blade Runner,   but it would be folly for anyone to say which one is the "complete" one.     

I guess one could argue that a version that has all the scenes,   intact,  as found in every other version,   but includes some additional scenes, not shown in any other version,   is the most "complete".        But I would still never use the term "complete" when discussing different versions. 

 

Complete version 1, complete version 2, etc. As in "DIrector's Cut" vs, Theatrical/Original release. Differing versions are 'complete'. 

Then you have Lost Horizon situations where portions are lost due to decay and no complete versions available. 

Not to be confused with edits made at some point by god knows who or why like in Three Days of the Condor and The Silencers. These superfluous cuts should be documented.

 

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Some years ago, I attended a screening of "Marty", one of my favorite films, at the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, California.  The director of "Marty", Delbert Mann, talked about the film and answered questions from the audience.  There was a  scene after Marty takes Clara home, where she sits in her parents' bedroom and talks about her date with Marty and makes the decision to take the job in the private school.  I stood up and asked the audience if anyone was familiar with that scene.  

Delbert Mann said that the scene had been cut out for broadcast TV.  TCM shows "Marty" with the scene included but the Movies Network recently showed "Marty" with the scene missing!

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1 hour ago, Moe Howard said:

Complete version 1, complete version 2, etc. As in "DIrector's Cut" vs, Theatrical/Original release. Differing versions are 'complete'. 

Then you have Lost Horizon situations where portions are lost due to decay and no complete versions available. 

Not to be confused with edits made at some point by god knows who or why like in Three Days of the Condor and The Silencers. These superfluous cuts should be documented.

 

What you are calling "complete version 1,  complete version 2 etc." I would define as "intact";   I.e.  unaltered.  

Anyhow,  another good example is the two The Big Sleep versions;  the released-only-overseas-too-US-troops version and the one most people know,  the post-war,  post Bogie\Bacall getting married version,  where Hawks filmed additional scenes,   re-filmed others (e.g.  two different actresses play Mrs. Eddie Mars),   and edited out scenes (one of my gal Martha Vickers!).    

TCM showed both version back-to-back a few years back.     For those that haven't seen the limited-release version,  I recommend it.    The focus is more on Marlowe and the crimes and less on the Bogie\Bacall romantic angle.   

 

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