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Plato's Euthyphro dialogue is a great book on the question of God's existence. It's so great to me because it basically says "even if God were real he is irrelevant to determining morality and ethics." I highly recommend it for everyone seriously interested in the debate between Atheism and Theology.

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The two options are either God arbitrarily chooses your morals for you or morals exist independent of God and his approval is not required for their existence. The book is extremely mind-opening. When people start quoting randomly from the Bible it is always best to have this dilemma in mind. Isn't their constant quoting falling into the "Divine Command Theory" territory? :huh: That explains that God dislikes something but it does not really explain why he does. Does it?

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How did everything came from nothing? (the singularity before the Big Bang or Let There Be Light?

You simply don't get something from nothing?

For having laws (physics), one must have a law maker and a law giver.....Albert Einstein

Einstein had his personal views about religion and he believed in what he called “cosmic religion” where God's presence was evident in the order and rationality of nature and the universe in all its aspects and expressions. Chaos and randomness are, therefore, not part of nature (“God does not play dice”)

Everything in the universe has order even though man sees sometimes disorder / chaos.

From the smallest particle to the largest cosmic web, there has to be intelligent design.

Science DEMANDS everything be measured, weighed, examined.  If it can not be, then it doesn't exist.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, hamradio said:

How did everything came from nothing? (the singularity before the Big Bang or Let There Be Light?

You simply don't get something from nothing?

For having laws (physics), one must have a law maker and a law giver.....Albert Einstein

Einstein had his personal views about religion and he believed in what he called “cosmic religion” where God's presence was evident in the order and rationality of nature and the universe in all its aspects and expressions. Chaos and randomness are, therefore, not part of nature (“God does not play dice”)

Everything in the universe has order even though man sees sometimes disorder / chaos.

From the smallest particle to the largest cosmic web, there has to be intelligent design.

Science DEMANDS everything be measured, weighed, examined.  If it can not be, then it doesn't exist.

 

 

Which of the Gods that Carl Sagan proposed do you adhere to?  The one that looks like an old man with a long grey beard?  Or the one that created everything then buggered off?  Or the one that is completely irrelevant?

Judging by your Einstein theory of God (which I do not dispute) it is number two.  The God that buggered off.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Bogie56 said:

Which of the Gods that Carl Sagan proposed do you adhere to?  The one that looks like an old man with a long grey beard?  Or the one that created everything then buggered off?  Or the one that is completely irrelevant?

Judging by your Einstein theory of God (which I do not dispute) it is number two.  The God that buggered off.

 

 

That image came from Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel "The Creation of Adam" commissioned by the Vatican.  There has never been a description of God, the only reference he created man in his "image" which is opened to broad interpretation. I better understand why there was a law against graven images - can come to the wrong conclusion big time.

The "old man with a white beard" seems to be replete on how other biblical figures appeared, Noah, Moses, Abraham which has no bases. I like how modern films are doing away with this presumption.

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I only adhere to ONE which has neither "buggered off" as you put it and has not become irrelevant?  Again Einstein said  God's presence was evident in the order and rationality of nature and the universe in all its aspects and expressions. 

How do you describe the indescribable God or heaven?

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15 hours ago, hamradio said:

How do you describe the indescribable God or heaven?

How do I describe the indescribable?  That seems like a rhetorical question.

I think Sagan is on to something.  Did you watch the video until the end.  Without God man is left to take responsibility for his own actions and that is not such a bad thing.

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I've been reading a lot of Plantagenet history lately and am struck by the brutality. Christianity in the Middle Ages (disemboweling, cutting people's limbs off) mirrors some of the torture we find in parts of the Muslim world today. My point being that religion evolves. Carl Sagan is Jewish. Apart from the Orthodox/Hasidic cults which still flourish, Judaism, being older, has evolved into a basic acceptance of what Sagan presents as the God of Einstein and Spinoza, two Jews.  

Religion, and the concept of God, evolves and progresses, even thought some groups, and some individuals, will remain attached to more archaic concepts. The theories of the early anthropologists of religion, though some discredited, are fascinating, as they dealt with the search for the origin of religion. Was there a high God? Was it mana? Animism? Whose theory was closest to what might be the truth, or were they all accurate to some extent? Marett, Spencer, Frazier, Malinowski, Max Muller, Jeavons, many others, all explored these issues, and each had an interesting view.

But Carl Sagan's view is basically that of most of the modern Jewish community, who agree with Einstein and Spinoza, to a great degree, and which may not be too far removed from what Gandhi said, when he was asked for his view of religion/God. He quoted the first lines of the Isa Upanishad, which has been translated various ways:

"Everything you see is permeated with God. Renounce it and enjoy it."

 

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Interesting in in the movie "Contact" (1997) based on Carl Sagan's novel whom also had a  cameo as a member of the committee selecting an occupant for the machine, the main question was posed...Do you believe in God?  by which Eleanor thought as a scientist it was totally irrelevant 

Palmer Joss ....Our job was to select someone to speak for everybody. And I just couldn't in good conscience vote for a person who doesn't believe in God. Someone who honestly thinks the other ninety five percent of us suffer from some form of mass delusion.

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11 minutes ago, hamradio said:

Interesting in in the movie "Contact" (1997) based on Carl Sagan's novel whom also had a  cameo as a member of the committee selecting an occupant for the machine, the main question was posed...Do you believe in God?  by which Eleanor thought as a scientist it was totally irrelevant 

Palmer Joss ....Our job was to select someone to speak for everybody. And I just couldn't in good conscience vote for a person who doesn't believe in God. Someone who honestly thinks the other ninety five percent of us suffer from some form of mass delusion.

I've heard that there was only one or two people in Jonestown who didn't believe as well.

How many people believed the world was round 1500 years ago?  Numbers of believers don't mean proof.

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15 minutes ago, Bogie56 said:

I've heard that there was only one or two people in Jonestown who didn't believe as well.

How many people believed the world was round 1500 years ago?  Numbers of believers don't mean proof.

That is a myth the majority thought the Earth was flat. The belief the Earth is round (Spherical Earth) goes back to the 5th century BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

 

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As Stephen Hawking has explained, M Theory does not rule out the existence of God but it does rule out a necessity for a God in the creation of our Universe.  It was mathematically inevitable.

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There is the Ayer route: Any putative proposition about the existence or non-existence of God  

needs some empirical experience to indicate its truthfulness or falsehood. Since there are no

sense experiences that could support either the existence or non-existence of God, such putative

propositions are metaphysical which, according to Ayer, means that they are neither true nor false

but senseless.

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How does one define emotions / consciousness or self awareness? 

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Just for argument sake explain to him what joy, sadness is so a logical machine can understand it?  A.I. never will comprehend the meaning because man cannot replicate such.

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Point a gun at a primate or dog and see if they react because their life may about to end? 

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This is what separates man from all other life on Earth.

Animals are bound solely by instinct which we may misinterpret at times.

If atheist don't believe in a soul that goes on afterwards then our entire existence  is POINTLESS!

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I'm sure animals and plants even (to an extent) have feelings and reactions to stimuli that are no less real to them than ours are to ourselves even without the help of voice boxes to make their inner experiences known.

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18 minutes ago, Sukhov said:

I'm sure animals and plants even (to an extent) have feelings and reactions to stimuli that are no less real to them than ours are to ourselves even without the help of voice boxes to make their inner experiences known.

Then prove they have feelings (true emotions) not referring to natural reflex reaction to stimuli.

Now if an animal has the concept of such then try begging to a tiger or shark not to eat you because it hurts.

Do something silly in front of a dog and see if it laughs.

This is why man really don't understand INSTINCTIVE nature, when ones beloved pet turns on them without warning or provocation.  A chimp raised since infancy by man  suddenly tears someones face off! If said chimp has the concept of feelings / emotions then it wouldn't do such knowing it is inflicting pain to someone that has done nothing to it.

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It's an old joke but I like it.

 

What's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?

An atheist says there is no God.

An agnostic may say the same thing but he says it quietly (just in case God is listening).

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A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says “get in, get in!” The religous man replies, ” no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle.”

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause “God will grant him a miracle.”

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down.” St. Peter chuckles and responds, “I don’t know what you’re complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter.”

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What do you get when you cross an Atheist with a Jehovah’s Witness?
Someone who knocks at your door for no reason.

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