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On 7/23/2021 at 8:51 PM, Bogie56 said:

Judging by your Einstein theory of God (which I do not dispute) it is number two.

It's number two, alright.

I read a lot of neuroscience & philosophy and am really intrigued that religion is just part of human nature. There are areas of the brain that when stimulated, create a sense of "oneness" with nature, humanity & the world. 

In Tom Shadyac's 2010 movie I AM, the electric current of  the "living" biomes in yogurt is illustrated by an EKG. We are all connected, yet all divided. Some see that as God and form a religion around it. 

There is definitely a law of physics, our physical world which we cannot control: death, gravity, weather, etc. Physics, while immoveable is ruled by "chance". Creation, evolution, life is all "chance". That is the (divine) paradox, often described as yin yang or infinity loop. 

I went to a Catholic High School and took an incredible course on religious philosophy taught by a nun. She said, "God created the world as a test of what kind of person you can be. You have free will, otherwise you'd be nothing more than God's Puppets. Like your parents, God wants to see you succeed being the best you can be. Not rich, not famous, just be the best YOU. Make your decisions wisely, learn from your mistakes and leave the world a better place than when you came. Your responsibility."

I lived in the heart of Mormon Country, rural upstate NY. Two Mormons came knocking at my door, "Can we talk with you about your choice of living forever?" I was shingling the roof to my addition & said "Sure, if you want to grab a hammer." We debated intelligently and the job went quickly. I gave them a huge farm lunch & never forgotten their willingness to help. Religion or not, it's the way humans should be.

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16 hours ago, hamradio said:

It's difficult to express about the animals level of consciousness but it's not like our own.

But regardless of what level - animals do not have a soul.

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/do-animals-have-souls.html

 

Is there scripture that supports this?   What!

Animals don't know right from wrong?

Neither do humans.   Until somewhere along the line they're TAUGHT right from wrong.   And there have been many animals that HAVE been taught that.  

And what about reincarnation?   Typically, Christians who have no true idea of the concept dismiss the idea or believe the folly that it means people will come back to life as a bug or an animal or some such crap.  Nothing I've read or heard about the belief supports that notion.  Most readings of the belief I've found indicate people(and some animals as well) go through several "rebirths",  each life improving in spiritual purity until the soul reaches it's highest possible level and then achieves Nirvana, the final level of consciousness.  What other religions call reaching "home" or entering the kingdom of heaven.  And there are many who believe reincarnation is what Jesus was referring to in  John 3: 1-17---- "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God". 

https://www.tokenrock.com/explain-reincarnation-142.html

Sepiatone

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1 hour ago, Sepiatone said:

Is there scripture that supports this?   What!

Animals don't know right from wrong?

Neither do humans.   Until somewhere along the line they're TAUGHT right from wrong.   And there have been many animals that HAVE been taught that.  

And what about reincarnation?   Typically, Christians who have no true idea of the concept dismiss the idea or believe the folly that it means people will come back to life as a bug or an animal or some such crap.  Nothing I've read or heard about the belief supports that notion.  Most readings of the belief I've found indicate people(and some animals as well) go through several "rebirths",  each life improving in spiritual purity until the soul reaches it's highest possible level and then achieves Nirvana, the final level of consciousness.  What other religions call reaching "home" or entering the kingdom of heaven.  And there are many who believe reincarnation is what Jesus was referring to in  John 3: 1-17---- "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God". 

https://www.tokenrock.com/explain-reincarnation-142.html

Sepiatone

You are taking the word "Born" in this case too literally.

Definition..

Describing  gaining faith in Jesus Christ. It is an experience when everything they have been taught as Christians becomes real, and they develop a direct and personal relationship with God. To be born again you must have absolute faith Jesus is God's only begotten son whom has died and resurrected without any doubt and must live life according to his teachings. Those  born again are  his children.

Reincarnation is the wrong terminology, it's resurrection.

 

Regarding animals, no animal is evil even though superstitions have made many such as snakes, black cats, ravens to be associated with the devil / evil. Animals run by instinct.

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On 7/24/2021 at 3:48 AM, Bogie56 said:

How do I describe the indescribable?  That seems like a rhetorical question.

I think Sagan is on to something.  Did you watch the video until the end.  Without God man is left to take responsibility for his own actions and that is not such a bad thing.

Sartre

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In Buddhism, there are "five psycho-physical aggregates" that work as a kind of soul. Once you have reincarnated enough and achieved a certain level of Enlightenment you realize that all is nothing and then you break free from the cycle of rebirth. It's almost a bit Heraclitean. 

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30 minutes ago, hamradio said:

Regarding animals, no animal is evil even though superstitions have made many such as snakes, black cats, ravens to be associated with the devil / evil. Animals run by instinct.

Humans run by instinct too, much of the time. That is his point. You are drawing an arbitrary distinction between animals and humans.

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On 7/24/2021 at 9:50 AM, Swithin said:

I've been reading a lot of Plantagenet history lately and am struck by the brutality. Christianity in the Middle Ages (disemboweling, cutting people's limbs off) mirrors some of the torture we find in parts of the Muslim world today.

Assumptions made by organized religions can be safely dismissed. They made stuff up in the effort of exploiting religion for gain.

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On 7/24/2021 at 4:29 PM, hamradio said:

How does one define emotions / consciousness or self awareness? 

You can't define them, especially consciousness and self awareness. If you think you have, then they no longer have any meaning. Forget self awareness. Once you are self aware, then you have no awareness.

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On 7/25/2021 at 6:11 AM, 37kitties said:

As to the opinion of "without God man is left to take responsibility for his own actions and that is not such a bad thing", without God there is no good or bad thing and there is no responsibility.

The Human Condition?

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22 minutes ago, laffite said:

You can't define them, especially consciousness and self awareness. If you think you have, then they no longer have any meaning. Forget self awareness. Once you are self aware, then you have no awareness.

Plato says something similar to this in the Meno dialogue I believe. He says "you can't know that you don't know something because that requires knowledge of what you don't know and if you do not know something then you don't know that you don't know it." It's really wordy the things he says but when you break them down there is a lot of insight. It leaves you questioning what you held as truth.

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2 hours ago, 37kitties said:

"Without God  nothing matters" would seem to define it.

That's why it's up to you to create your own values. A German guy with a silly moustache and crazy eyes wrote about this in a book once.

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1 hour ago, Sukhov said:

That's why it's up to you to create your own values. 

Why bother? Without God, values don't matter, nothing matters.

Our nanosecond of existence will come and go and it will be utterly without purpose or meaning. Not dissimilar to the existence of mosquitoes.

Eventually the earth will cease to exist and nothing that's ever happened on it will be of any importance whatsoever.

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6 minutes ago, 37kitties said:

Why bother? Without God, values don't matter, nothing matters.

Our nanosecond of existence will come and go and it will be utterly without purpose or meaning. Not dissimilar to the existence of mosquitoes.

Eventually the earth will cease to exist and nothing that's ever happened on it will be of any importance whatsoever.

Life was already fleeting even with God. There are more paths to life than the Abrahamic ones.

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20 minutes ago, Sukhov said:

Life was already fleeting even with God.

Without God, fleeting has no meaning. Eternity is a trillion, trillion, trillion years long and keeps going from there.

Everything is fleeting against that.

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Without God everything is permitted. With God fewer things are permitted, but people will

do them anyway. Six of one...

 

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5 hours ago, 37kitties said:

Without God, fleeting has no meaning. Eternity is a trillion, trillion, trillion years long and keeps going from there.

Everything is fleeting against that.

Eternity is the absence  of space time which has no meaning in God's realm.. Scientist calls it a singularity which is the same thing.  WE in our space time existence can't comprehend whats it's like outside this realm.

 

Your post above is like "The Shepard Boy".

http://fanzone50.com/Tales/Eternity.html

 

(The story was written long before our knowledge of the cosmos, the question about how many stars there are would required septillions of  dotted sheets of paper.)

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6 hours ago, hamradio said:

Eternity is the absence  of space time which has no meaning in God's realm.. Scientist calls it a singularity which is the same thing.  WE in our space time existence can't comprehend whats it's like outside this realm.

 

Your post above is like "The Shepard Boy".

http://fanzone50.com/Tales/Eternity.html

 

(The story was written long before our knowledge of the cosmos, the question about how many stars there are would required septillions of  dotted sheets of paper.)

needles in a heavenly haystack. there are more stars in the heavens than there are people on earth. 

through telescopes men of science constantly probe the infinitesimal corners of our universe.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -When Worlds Collide (1951)

:)

                                                                                                                                                

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52 minutes ago, NipkowDisc said:

needles in a heavenly haystack. there are more stars in the heavens than there are people on earth. 

through telescopes men of science constantly probe the infinitesimal corners of our universe.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -When Worlds Collide (1951)

:)

                                                                                                                                                

And found ancient Egypt on another world.  :wacko:

22152180%5D&call=url%5Bfile:product.chai

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21 hours ago, hamradio said:

You are taking the word "Born" in this case too literally.

Definition..

Describing  gaining faith in Jesus Christ. It is an experience when everything they have been taught as Christians becomes real, and they develop a direct and personal relationship with God. To be born again you must have absolute faith Jesus is God's only begotten son whom has died and resurrected without any doubt and must live life according to his teachings. Those  born again are  his children.

Reincarnation is the wrong terminology, it's resurrection.

 

Regarding animals, no animal is evil even though superstitions have made many such as snakes, black cats, ravens to be associated with the devil / evil. Animals run by instinct.

OK, so what scripture explains all that?   Or are you relating one mortal's interpretation?  Which would make all that more opinion than scriptural fact.

"resurrection" is really the wrong term in relation to reincarnation.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-the-resurrection/

And I'm still waiting for the scripture that makes the claim that animals have no soul.

Sepiatone

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14 hours ago, 37kitties said:

Why bother? Without God, values don't matter, nothing matters.

Our nanosecond of existence will come and go and it will be utterly without purpose or meaning. Not dissimilar to the existence of mosquitoes.

Eventually the earth will cease to exist and nothing that's ever happened on it will be of any importance whatsoever.

But what about NOW !!!

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15 hours ago, 37kitties said:

Eventually the earth will cease to exist and nothing that's ever happened on it will be of any importance whatsoever.

Yeah, but I could get a really, really bad headache by then.

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1 hour ago, Sepiatone said:

OK, so what scripture explains all that?   Or are you relating one mortal's interpretation?  Which would make all that more opinion than scriptural fact.

"resurrection" is really the wrong term in relation to reincarnation.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-the-resurrection/

And I'm still waiting for the scripture that makes the claim that animals have no soul.

Sepiatone

Going to be quite annoying in heaven if all the insects man has killed throughout history pay us a visit in the afterlife. -_-

This was a debate about the soul / animals in an "All in The Family" episode...

Archie Bunker...Who wants to go to heaven if it's full of flies? Might as well live in New York!

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5 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

OK, so what scripture explains all that?   Or are you relating one mortal's interpretation?  Which would make all that more opinion than scriptural fact.

"resurrection" is really the wrong term in relation to reincarnation.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-the-resurrection/

And I'm still waiting for the scripture that makes the claim that animals have no soul.

Sepiatone

I don't think the Bible or Apocrypha say anything on the subject. Saint Francis of Assisi was said to be able to "preach to his friends, the birds" which implies to me that the official Catholic doctrine is that animals do have souls.

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4 hours ago, hamradio said:

Going to be quite annoying in heaven if all the insects man has killed throughout history pay us a visit in the afterlife. -_-

This was a debate about the soul / animals in an "All in The Family" episode...

Archie Bunker...Who wants to go to heaven if it's full of flies? Might as well live in New York!

Funny,   I used to say "who wants to go to heaven if it's full of Archie Bunkers".

 

 

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