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"...Time for a refresh?"


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3 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

I suppose a comment like this is meant to provide "context" to viewers but it also promotes false information. False information created by publicists and perpetuated by gossip columnist for decades. Katharine Hepburn's life partner was Phyllis Wilbourn for more than 30 years. 

Hepburn and Tracy were costars and pals.

You really believe Hepburn and Tracy were just "pals"?    That they never had a sexual relationship?      I admit I'm getting my info from Wiki,  and that can be a flawed source but according to them:

"In Hollywood, however, the intimate nature of the Tracy-Hepburn partnership was an open secret".   

In addition Tracy had affairs with Young,  Bergman and Crawford (that were confirmed by the 3).

My understanding of Hepburn was that she was bisexual.    

As for Ben's comment:  I don't think he was trying to provide any "context" but just being snarky as it relates to the myth MGM's  PR department used to imply Tracy was a devout Catholic.          While I find humor when I hear anyone say Tracy was a devout Catholic,  I don't see why a TCM host needs to be snarky about that myth.   I.e. my preference is that such comments  are not made.

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, TikiSoo said:

"Younger" audiences aren't attracted by logos, typefaces, colors...branding. They are attracted to the station by hearing directors they admire (ie Cohen Bros, Tarantino, Spielberg, Scorsese, etc) talk about the classic films that influenced them & checking them out. Ask any teen if they want to see a "Hitchcock film" and they know it's old but should be good.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy the inclusion of the past "incorrectness" shown in movies. Nothing is more shocking than seeing how women, non-whites and kids were acceptably treated 100 years ago. Seeing it in a movie where you're emotionally involved in the story is a much better historical context than some talking head dweeb 'splainin' it away.

What TCM (and any classic movie fan) needs to do instead of trying to smooth over the "political incorrectness" of old movies, is to reassure younger people black&white, foreign & silent films can be worth watching. Personally, that's the prejudice I'd like to see "awakened".

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12 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

You really believe Hepburn and Tracy were just "pals"?    That they never had a sexual relationship?      I admit I'm getting my info from Wiki,  and that can be a flawed source but according to them:

"In Hollywood, however, the intimate nature of the Tracy-Hepburn partnership was an open secret".   

In addition Tracy had affairs with Young,  Bergman and Crawford (that were confirmed by the 3).

My understanding of Hepburn was that she was bisexual.    

As for Ben's comment:  I don't think he was trying to provide any "context" but just being snarky as it relates to the myth MGM's  PR department used to imply Tracy was a devout Catholic.          While I find humor when I hear anyone say Tracy was a devout Catholic,  I don't see why a TCM host needs to be snarky about that myth.   I.e. my preference is that such comments  are not made.

Yes, I would say what's in wiki is funneled down from those old publicity stories. 

She had multiple relationships with women over the years, especially in her youth, but Wilbourn was her primary partner. Incidentally she treated Wilbourn terribly at times but Wilbourn stuck with her.

Spencer Tracy was a "beard" and I am sure this is something his wife went along with, because Mrs. Tracy knew the truth is that he was not sleeping with Hepburn because Hepburn was really sleeping with Wilbourn.

Maybe people today can accept Hepburn as "bisexual" as one of the steps towards accepting her as a lesbian. And she was a lesbian.

Re: Ben's comment, he's throwing the comment about religion into the mix because he really hasn't studied who Spencer Tracy was as a person. Spencer Tracy was a loyal pal to his friends, and he was a man with serious personal problems. His Catholicism is just a label that wraparound writers and on-air hosts can paste over his performances, because they don't know how to say anything truly meaningful about him, or about Hepburn.

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1 minute ago, TopBilled said:

Spencer Tracy was a "beard" and I am sure this is something his wife went along with, because Mrs. Tracy knew the truth is that he was not sleeping with Hepburn because Hepburn was really sleeping with Wilbourn.

You could be on to something:    Being Hepburn's "bread" would have allowed Tracy to sleep around with other women without reporters and others trying to find out about those affairs since he already had a sexual affair (they were lead to believe),  with Hepburn.       I.e.  both benefited by the deception.   

 

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8 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

You could be on to something:    Being Hepburn's "bread" would have allowed Tracy to sleep around with other women without reporters and others trying to find out about those affairs since he already had a sexual affair (they were lead to believe),  with Hepburn.       I.e.  both benefited by the deception.   

Yes, that's exactly what I think. It was a clever ruse, because they were used as covers for each other, so the truth about their actual private relationships with other people did not come out.

Wilbourn was very devoted to Hepburn so I think it's rather sad that she doesn't get her due. 

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9 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

You really believe Hepburn and Tracy were just "pals"?    That they never had a sexual relationship?      I admit I'm getting my info from Wiki,  and that can be a flawed source but according to them:

"In Hollywood, however, the intimate nature of the Tracy-Hepburn partnership was an open secret".   

In addition Tracy had affairs with Young,  Bergman and Crawford (that were confirmed by the 3).

My understanding of Hepburn was that she was bisexual.    

As for Ben's comment:  I don't think he was trying to provide any "context" but just being snarky as it relates to the myth MGM's  PR department used to imply Tracy was a devout Catholic.          While I find humor when I hear anyone say Tracy was a devout Catholic,  I don't see why a TCM host needs to be snarky about that myth.   I.e. my preference is that such comments  are not made.

 

I have Hepburn's book Me.  In a chapter called "Love", it's a chapter about Spencer Tracy.   She says "I loved Spencer Tracy."  She moved into "Spence's tiny house, which we rented from George Cukor."  She took him to her parents place back east.  Of these meetings, she said "I think that they liked him -- but Spence felt a bit uncomfortable with them.  After all, he was a married man.  I don't think that Dad and Mother were bothered too much by this.  But there it was as far as Spence went -- and he felt uncomfortable -- unrelaxed.  So we seldom were together when I went home.

She goes on: "I have no idea how Spence felt about me.  I can only say I think that if he hadn't liked me he wouldn't have hung around.  As simple as that.  He wouldn't talk about it and I didn't talk about it.  We just passed twenty-seven years together in what was to me absolute bliss."

Later in the book, she's discussing the aftermath of Tracy's death: "After Spence died -- a few days later -- I called Louise (note: Tracy's wife) and said, "You know, Louise, you and I can be friends.  You knew him at the beginning, I at the end -- or we can just pretend that -- I might be a help with the kids."

"Well, yes," she said.  "But you see, I thought you were only a rumor..."

Hepburn continues:  "And I had not broken up their marriage.  That happened long before I arrived on the scene.  In California I did not go out in public with him.  And no one ever got a picture of us together -- socially -- privately, that is.  And actually -- as time passed -- the media let us alone."

Neither personality seemed to be particularly monogamously-minded, so I have no doubt they had affairs with others throughout their own relationship.  I don't think Hepburn needed a beard at all, because if anything, she was discreet, at least where the tabloids and gossip rags were concerned.

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18 minutes ago, Eucalpytus P. Millstone said:

How the heck was a mug like Spencer Tracy -- no Clark Gable or Cary Grant looks-wise, IMO -- getting so much action?

Because, and as I'm sure you really know here EPM, the criteria for attractiveness between the sexes has always been different. Men, generally being more visually oriented than women, place a woman's appearance higher on their list of initial desirability than they do character. Why do you think women wear makeup? It's of course to look more attractive. Women generally and on the otherhand place a man's appearance lower on this list, and prize a man's self-assuredness or even imagined self-assuredness higher. 

Now MANY women will often claim that they find a man with a keen sense of humor very attractive.

But I'VE always thought THIS is just a big lie, and 'cause I can't TELL YA how many times over the years I've shown MY "keen sense of humor" to a woman who I'D like to "get to know better" (if ya know what I mean) and I've come away with  NOTHIN' from the hot babe, DARN IT!!!

;)

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21 minutes ago, Dargo said:

But I'VE always thought THIS is just a big lie, and 'cause I can't TELL YA how many times over the years I've shown MY "keen sense of humor" to a woman who I'D like to "get to know better" (if ya know what I mean) and I've come away with  NOTHIN' from the hot babe, DARN IT!!!

Did you try this without the gun in your mouth?   

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21 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Because, and as I'm sure you really know here EPM, the criteria for attractiveness between the sexes has always been different. Men, generally being more visually oriented than women, place a woman's appearance higher on their list of initial desirability than they do character. Why do you think women wear makeup? It's of course to look more attractive. Women generally and on the otherhand place a man's appearance lower on this list, and prize a man's self-assuredness or even imagined self-assuredness higher. 

Now MANY women will often claim that they find a man with a keen sense of humor very attractive.

But I'VE always thought THIS is just a big lie, and 'cause I can't TELL YA how many times over the years I've shown MY "keen sense of humor" to a woman who I'D like to "get to know better" (if ya know what I mean) and I've come away with  NOTHIN' from the hot babe, DARN IT!!!

;)

Have you tried approaching a gal who isn't a hot babe? Heed the sage advice of one of America's founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin, who is, remember, depicted on the $100 bill.

Regarding Spencer Tracy, I suspect that his status and financial wealth probably compensated for his, IMO, average looks.

Regarding the appeal of a man who has a sense of humor: Hmmm. Funny (no pun intended) that criterion isn't on the list of Six things that women find appealing in men (suggested reading, Dargo).

FYI and a word to the wise: when a woman tells you that she's attracted to a man who has a sense of humor, that's not a cue for you to show her your "funny bone." 

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4 minutes ago, Eucalpytus P. Millstone said:

...FYI and a word to the wise: when a woman tells you that she's attracted to a man who has a sense of humor, that's not a cue for you to show her your "funny bone." 

LOL

Ah-HA! So THAT'S where I made my mistake all those years, EH?!

(...geeez, NOW you tell me!)

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Just now, Eucalpytus P. Millstone said:

Have you tried approaching a gal who isn't a hot babe? Heed the sage advice of one of America's founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin, who is, remember, depicted on the $100 bill.

Regarding Spencer Tracy, I suspect that his status and financial wealth probably compensated for his, IMO, average looks.

Regarding the appeal of a man who has a sense of humor: Hmmm. Funny (no pun intended) that criterion isn't on the list of Six things that women find appealing in men (suggested reading, Dargo).

FYI and a word to the wise: when a woman tells you that she's attracted to a man who has a sense of humor, that's not a cue for you to show her your "funny bone." 

My approach when I was single was to try to find a group of 3 women and focus on the second best looking one  (if she appealed to me).     While it was common for others to focus in on the best looking one,   I tried to look at the situation from the perspective of the second best looking one:    how often she was ignored because most of the attention was given to her slightly better looking friend.     This approach worked and worked well.    Often the gal would comment about the situation:  "wow,  someone paying me some attention for a change!".      I would often get a phone number for a follow-up date,  while the guys trying to hit on the best looking gal,   got nowhere,  time after time.

I assume I wasn't these gals top-choice in the looks department but from the gal's POV:   wouldn't you rather dance and talk with a guy that is interested in you, instead of waiting,  hoping the best looking guy that is chatting up your friend,  will end up dropping that angle and paying attention to you? 

 

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13 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

My approach when I was single was to try to find a group of 3 women and focus on the second best looking one  (if she appealed to me).     While it was common for others to focus in on the best looking one,   I tried to look at the situation from the perspective of the second best looking one:    how often she was ignored because most of the attention was given to her slightly better looking friend.     This approach worked and worked well.    Often the gal would comment about the situation:  "wow,  someone paying me some attention for a change!".      I would often get a phone number for a follow-up date,  while the guys trying to hit on the best looking gal,   got nowhere,  time after time.

And here I was thinkin' what a GREAT plan the above would've been for me to use back in my single days too, but THAT was until I read your second paragraph here...

13 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I assume I wasn't these gals top-choice in the looks department but from the gal's POV:   wouldn't you rather dance and talk with a guy that is interested in you, instead of waiting,  hoping the best looking guy that is chatting up your friend,  will end up dropping that angle and paying attention to you? 

And 'cause THEN I realized that this great plan up there wouldn't and couldn't have applied to me.

(...nope, you see,  I WAS always the best lookin' guy in my group of friends!) 

LOL

;)

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2 minutes ago, Eucalpytus P. Millstone said:

The Voice of Experience.

Penalty is nine to ten at Leavenworth.

Did five to ten at Woolworth, myself.

Ya know, EPM. I was just thinkin' here that you and I could probably pull off a pretty good rendition of the mirror sequence in that flick if we worked at it  ;)

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8 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Ya know, EPM. I was just thinkin' here that you and I could probably pull off a pretty good rendition of the mirror sequence in that flick if we worked at it  ;)

In our case, it would probably wind up as The Mirror Has Two Faces (and they both need lifting).

 

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I simple thought.  That has nothing to do with Spence and Hepburn. But thanks for the distraction, TB.

The TCM logo. 

I wonder how nice it would have been if they'd just stayed with the original logotype?  Would that have hurt anyone? Would that have driven away potential viewers?

No.  It would not.  The original logo had a soul and a sense of time and place the that new logo lacks, in extremis.  The new logo can hardly be called a logo.  It's just weak typeface that spells out the networks name. As others have noted, it really ain't gonna sell many t-shirts or mugs.

The strong, smart brands know enough to make incremental changes to their typography, unless it is hopelessly outdated. Many of them have learned that staying with an archetype turns out to be the best practice, as typefaces and logos often come around and become "cool" again. And they have a power that transcends fads.  Think Perrier. Coke. Alfa Romeo, CBS.  Meanwhile, the less enlightened create new logos (think Dodge, Pepsi, Kia) that are meaningless, but succeed to ensuring that "the emperors new clothes" stays on many people tongues.

I will really miss the original logo.  And believe me, it was "outdated" when it began.  It was not au courant when TCM launched, but was intended to imbue a "classic movie" sense to the network, while still being simple and elegant.  Something the new logo fails to do.

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14 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

My approach when I was single was to try to find a group of 3 women and focus on the second best looking one  (if she appealed to me).     While it was common for others to focus in on the best looking one,   I tried to look at the situation from the perspective of the second best looking one:    how often she was ignored because most of the attention was given to her slightly better looking friend.     This approach worked and worked well.    Often the gal would comment about the situation:  "wow,  someone paying me some attention for a change!".      I would often get a phone number for a follow-up date,  while the guys trying to hit on the best looking gal,   got nowhere,  time after time.

I assume I wasn't these gals top-choice in the looks department but from the gal's POV:   wouldn't you rather dance and talk with a guy that is interested in you, instead of waiting,  hoping the best looking guy that is chatting up your friend,  will end up dropping that angle and paying attention to you? 

 

This is the kind of useful, practical, and scholarly wisdom that I signed on to the TCM Message Boards for. Thank you, Mr. Lonelyhearts!

Well, it certainly beats my technique: sizing up The Monster Club and going home with the one who doesn't turn people to stone.

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9 minutes ago, overeasy said:

I simple thought.  That has nothing to do with Spence and Hepburn. But thanks for the distraction, TB.

The TCM logo. 

I wonder how nice it would have been if they'd just stayed with the original logotype?  Would that have hurt anyone? Would that have driven away potential viewers?

No.  It would not.  The original logo had a soul and a sense of time and place the that new logo lacks, in extremis.  The new logo can hardly be called a logo.  It's just weak typeface that spells out the networks name. As others have noted, it really ain't gonna sell many t-shirts or mugs.

The strong, smart brands know enough to make incremental changes to their typography, unless it is hopelessly outdated. Many of them have learned that staying with an archetype turns out to be the best practice, as typefaces and logos often come around and become "cool" again. And they have a power that transcends fads.  Think Perrier. Coke. Alfa Romeo, CBS.  Meanwhile, the less enlightened create new logos (think Dodge, Pepsi, Kia) that are meaningless, but succeed to ensuring that "the emperors new clothes" stays on many people tongues.

I will really miss the original logo.  And believe me, it was "outdated" when it began.  It was not au courant when TCM launched, but was intended to imbue a "classic movie" sense to the network, while still being simple and elegant.  Something the new logo fails to do.

If they have their festival next spring, and if their merchandise has the new logo on it, they'll know.  The folks that go there are probably the most rabid of TCM fans.  Typically the merchandise is pretty well picked over after the second day the shop is open.   My bet is that most festival goers will prefer the older stuff, especially the ones that come dressed in 30s, 40s and 50s outfits.

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I like Ben's new fake house, but I'm worried that the built-in log rack will draw bugs.  Then again, I've never seen one before.   It's all rather beige and sort of homey-like but we'll probably be sick of it in a year's time.   The new graphics and logo do nothing for me.

1 hour ago, lydecker said:

And the conjecture about Hepburn and Tracy's sex life has what to do with TCM's "refresh?"

 

😃  I think there's a fresh rumor... lol

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1 hour ago, Eucalpytus P. Millstone said:

In our case, it would probably wind up as The Mirror Has Two Faces (and they both need lifting).

 

Must have watched this over 50 times in my life, and it still cracks me up every time I see it.

(...talk about a "classic"!)

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Yeah, is that a stack of firewood in that narrow closet or whatever it is? Nice.

Spence and Kate had one of the strangest relationships, even for Hollywood. Spence had a sex

change operation when he was around 17 years old. He did it originally to stay out of WW I.

But when the war was over he was tired of being a girly girl and changed back into being a manly

man. But all the mental confusion of these events turned him into a devout alcoholic, the only

thing he was ever devout about. And Kate? Well turns out she was her own illegitimate daughter.

Wouldn't that go against the laws of time and space, or at least the laws of time? Well you know

Kate, she could do anything she wanted to and she somehow managed this. It was only natural

she would hook up with Spencer. She gave birth to a hermaphrodite they named Purvis who

was put into an orphanage and never heard from again. Their various Tinseltown friends always

made sure the true truth never came out.

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