Noir Alley

[cigarjoe]

18 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

Some amusement....

A brother in law, over to store his camper in my yard(and not really a movie buff) walked in at certain moments in the movie and expressed SURPRISE at how GORGEOUS Bacall was at 23.  Seemed he was only familiar with her in movies she made since about the mid '60's or so.  And the only BOGART movie he knows is THE LEFT HAND OF GOD.  Never also, ever saw DEAD END, but did like the later BOWERY BOYS flicks.  

Not so amusing:

The droning blather after the movie(and before) that Muller "treats" us to.  Now, it's ONE thing for a LITERARY CRITIC to pronounce a book as a "must read".  But, for the AUTHOR of the book to do so is, in my estimate, the EPITOME of hubris and pomposity.

Sepiatone

I though he said a Frenchman wrote it? 

[speedracer5]

30 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

I though he said a Frenchman wrote it? 

I'm pretty sure that Eddie Muller said that he helped edit and publish the translated version. 

[cigarjoe]

1 minute ago, speedracer5 said:

I'm pretty sure that Eddie Muller said that he helped edit and publish the translated version. 

exactly, he didn't write it.

[speedracer5]

53 minutes ago, Looney said:

I KNEW IT!!!!!  Told-ja the odd fall of Madge might have been a CODE issue.    So in Muller's words she jumped.  It looked like she tripped because they couldn't make it look like she deliberately committed suicide.  That is pretty much what I figured.

So I've now seen this film 3 times in the last year.  I can't say it is my favorite, but I do enjoy it.  And I love how they stay committed to the first person POV for so long.  When I originally heard that this was a style the film employed I assumed it would last, at most, the first five minutes.  I was incorrect.  I also like how one of the first things they discuss after the bandages are removed is how the surgery made him look older.

And to address what LornaHansonForbes was saying about "trust" in the film.  Yes that is very noticeable.  I think in Vince's case it is a matter of necessity.  I think in Irene's case there are two factors involved.  One her feeling that her father was wrongfully accused and the fact that she knows Madge.  You can build a foundation of trust when you know someone has been accused by someone else who is totally untrustworthy.  But Lorna DEFINITELY has a point that there is a whole lot of "trust" going on all over this movie. 

Re: Madge's death.

I was always uncertain of what exactly happened to Madge at the end of the film.  I know Bogart tells Bacall that she had an accident and fell out the window; but to me, it just didn't seem like an accident.  I always assumed that Madge was just that vindictive that she'd commit suicide just so she could frame him again.  

I like the first person perspective used in this film.  I feel that it is much more effective in this film than in Lady in the Lake.  I will also say that the plastic surgeon is very skilled.  Bogart doesn't look anything like his character's picture from the newspaper. 

[LornaHansonForbes]

I've read most/all of Jim Thompson, James M Cain, Dashiell Hammett, and most of the minors like Charles Willeford and Frederic Brown; I'm not a Cornell Woolrich fan, but I respect the talent. 

On two occasions in my life I have quit reading books when I was within a few pages of the ending. Both of those books were by DAVID GOODIS. 

They were just that bad. 

I also could not make it through DARK PASSAGE (the novel) but that is largely because it is Word for Word just like the movie (with a few minor exceptions of course.) And I had recently seen the movie so there was no need to read it out.

Believe it or not though, I would probably give him another shot. Does anyone have any recommendations?

[speedracer5]

2 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Random thoughts on Dark Passage:

I've seen this one a few times. The more often you view a movie, the more little things you notice about it.

The plastic surgery scene is one of the most interesting and noirish in the whole film. I love that back alley where the defrocked doc has  his office, the almost surreal atmosphere and the whole bizarre idea of having your face changed at the recommendation of a complete stranger, altered by another complete stranger, in the middle of the night. The nightmarish scene where Vince is under aenesthetic and we see all these frightening images whirling around. I love that kind of stuff.

I think Vince's friend, George, is gay. He gives off a gay vibe, plus, he tells Vince that Vince is "the only friend I've ever had. No one else ever liked me.",which may well have been the case for a closeted gay man back in the 1940s. And "all he ever wanted to do was play the trumpet and go to South America with Vince.", as though he has feelings beyond friendship for Vince.

Agnes Moorehead is a hoot as the conniving malevolent Madge. I think Agnes really enjoyed this role as a true harpy from hell. 

Something I've always noticed about this film is the way everyone asks questions, tons of questions. Everyone, the guy who picks Vince up at the film's beginning, the taxi driver, George, the hash-slinging cook in the all night diner ...all of them are incredibly nosy and ask far more questions than people do in real life. Sometimes this helps our hero, sometimes it's disastrous. 

One more thing I noticed this time around watching Dark Passage: the degree of trust some of the characters show, especially Lauren Bacall's. She believes everything Vince says. We know he's telling the truth, but how come she's so sure? But even though it stretches the limits of plausibility that she believes him, it somehow works. And Vince, in turn, has to trust her.  There's also the enormous trust he has to put in the taxi driver and the disbarred plastic surgeon. I like the way they both emphatically tell him when the surgery's over that they'll never see him again, tacitly letting him know that they have no intention of blackmailing him.

I think the scene where Irene removes Vince's bandages and initially looks appalled is a bit of an in-joke. Bogart's wife is looking at his face and is repelled at what she sees !  (Still, of course that's only for the first few minutes...)

By the way, if this seems disjointed and randomly written, it's because I'm writing it while watching the film as it airs. I don't usually do this- it's kind of distracting, I keep having to look from the screen to my laptop. Don't know how some of you manage to do this on a regular basis !

Anyway, one other thing I wanted to mention about Dark Passage is the wonderful  noirish setting, the San Francisco locations, full of steep winding stairways and dark streets and rain. Oh, and the fabulous apartment of Irene's ! Love that building, I hear it still exists.

I also enjoy the plastic surgery scene.  I think it's funny that Bogart randomly decides at 3am to submit to an extensive plastic surgery from a disbarred doctor based on the recommendation from a cab driver.  I guess he thinks it's a good idea? I also like that the cab driver figures out Bogart's identity, but decides to help him.  There seems to be a lot of people in San Francisco that are sympathetic to convicted felons (even though we know that Bogart was framed by Agnes Moorehead).  

It's funny how everyone asks so many questions.  In the case of Baker whom he meets first and then the cab driver, I figure that Bogart must have a look on his face that makes him look suspicious.  Maybe he seems scared or he looks overly paranoid and they're trying to figure out what's wrong? The questions all seem rather innocuous until the detective corners Bogart in the diner and Bogart's forced to provide his fake name which he knows he can't prove as he has no legal identification.  Although Bogart escaped from prison, presumably not taking his things with him (e.g. his wallet that was probably on his person upon admission to the prison), so he probably doesn't have any identification. 

On the flip-side, Bacall doesn't really ask any questions, in fact I think Bogart questions her more than she does him.  It seems a little too convenient that she just happens to find him when he escapes from prison, but I can overlook that.  It is shown that she has an active interest in Bogart's case.  Bacall's father, like Bogart, was falsely convicted of murdering his wife.  Bacall's father ended up dying in prison before he could clear his name.  I believe that Bacall wants to help Bogart avoid that fate if she can--which is probably why she forces him to trust her.  The stakes are high, as she could be imprisoned for harboring a fugitive if they're caught.

I love the San Francisco scenery.  The city makes such a great backdrop for the seedy world of noir.  I like how San Francisco can look sketchy like in Dark Passage, The Lady From Shanghai, Out of the Past, Woman on the Run, and Sudden Fear.  But then it can look glamorous like in Vertigo and The Birds.  Lauren Bacall's apartment in San Francisco is amazing, from the view to the spiral staircase, that'd be such a cool place to live.  

[ElCid]

I enjoyed Muller's commentaries and as usual found them informative.  One thing that has always stuck with me is every time I see Clifton Young as Baker, I immediately think of all the Joe McDoakes shorts he made.  The scene with the Owl Drug Store reminds me that years ago they had a model railroad department and advertised in model railroading magazines.  Evidently continued it long after most other businesses had phased out model railroad departments.

[misswonderly3]

1 hour ago, Looney said:

 

...And to address what LornaHansonForbes was saying about "trust" in the film. ...  But Lorna DEFINITELY has a point that there is a whole lot of "trust" going on all over this movie. ....

Um, actually that was me (misswonderly) who made that point about trust. Not to be all attention-hoggish or anything, but, just, much as I love Lorna's posts, that observation was mine. (But I know it's easy to get it mixed up sometimes when reading these threads, just who said what...)

[misswonderly3]

 

Quote

...The droning blather after the movie(and before) that Muller "treats" us to.  Now, it's ONE thing for a LITERARY CRITIC to pronounce a book as a "must read".  But, for the AUTHOR of the book to do so is, in my estimate, the EPITOME of hubris and pomposity.

Sepiatone

It wasn't Eddie's book .He wasn't promoting his own book It was a biography of the writer of the novel "Dark Passage" is based on, "Goodis: A Life in Black and White", by someone called Phillippe Garnier  (NOT  "Eddie Muller.")

Sepiatone, you always talk about "droning blather".People always seem to be "droning" and "blathering" to you. I must be fortunate in that I rarely experience either droning or blather in my personal life or when watching TCM.

[Swithin]

2 hours ago, speedracer5 said:

I was always uncertain of what exactly happened to Madge at the end of the film.  I know Bogart tells Bacall that she had an accident and fell out the window; but to me, it just didn't seem like an accident.  I always assumed that Madge was just that vindictive that she'd commit suicide just so she could frame him again.  

I just looked at the ending again, since I hadn't seen the film in a while, and I know the question of what Madge does has been a burning one. There's no question: she jumped. Why on earth would she pull aside the curtain and move behind it? To play hide and seek? It was her apartment, she knew what was back there: a window many stories up.

The suicide fits perfectly with her last speech.

It's obvious, she knew that she was the only one who could clear him and that her death was the only way to make that a total impossibility. Nasty woman, all the way to the grave.

 

[cigarjoe]

45 minutes ago, LornaHansonForbes said:

I've read most/all of Jim Thompson, James M Cain, Dashiell Hammett, and most of the minors like Charles Willeford and Frederic Brown; I'm not a Cornell Woolrich fan, but I respect the talent. 

On two occasions in my life I have quit reading books when I was within a few pages of the ending. Both of those books were by DAVID GOODIS. 

They were just that bad. 

I also could not make it through DARK PASSAGE (the novel) but that is largely because it is Word for Word just like the movie (with a few minor exceptions of course.) And I had recently seen the movie so there was no need to read it out.

Believe it or not though, I would probably give him another shot. Does anyone have any recommendations?

The Unfaithful (1947) The Burglar (1957) Nightfall (1957) are decent films, not great. Never read a novel of his though.

[JamesJazGuitar]

30 minutes ago, TheCid said:

I enjoyed Muller's commentaries and as usual found them informative.  One thing that has always stuck with me is every time I see Clifton Young as Baker, I immediately think of all the Joe McDoakes shorts he made.  The scene with the Owl Drug Store reminds me that years ago they had a model railroad department and advertised in model railroading magazines.  Evidently continued it long after most other businesses had phased out model railroad departments.

Young was also a member of Our Gang;  As an adult Warner signed him but he got only very small parts.  Still he was in some very solid films: Notable credits include Nora Prentiss, Pursued, Possessed, Dark Passage, and Blood on the Moon.^[1]    

A non credited role was in the WB film That Way with Women;  This 1947 film was made mostly to feature the lovely Martha Vickers after her breakout performances as Carmen in The Big Sleep.   This comedy features Sidney Greenstreet and Dane Clark and Young is shown in a scene with Vickers at a baseball game. 

 

 

 

 

[speedracer5]

10 minutes ago, Swithin said:

I just looked at the ending again, since I hadn't seen the film in a while, and I know the question of what Madge does has been a burning one. There's no question: she jumped. Why on earth would she pull aside the curtain and move behind it? To play hide and seek? It was her apartment, she knew what was back there: an open window many stories up.

The suicide fits perfectly with her last speech.

It's obvious, she knew that she was the only one who could clear him and that her death was the only way to make that a total impossibility. Nasty woman, all the way to the grave.

 

That's what I always thought too.  It doesn't make sense that she would trip and fall.  And I believe the window was closed, because when Bogart pulls back the curtain, you can see broken glass in the window frame.  How would Madge have tripped and fallen in such a small space and at such a force that she'd break through the glass? I think Madge pulled back the curtain, broke the window with something and jumped out.  She told Bogart that he needs evidence, he needs her, without her, he has nothing.  So she made sure that he had nothing.

Wasn't her main motive behind murdering his wife and his friend was that she was mad that he rebuffed her advances? She was a scorned woman to the extreme. 

[LornaHansonForbes]

1 minute ago, cigarjoe said:

The Unfaithful (1947) The Burglar (1957) Nightfall (1957) are decent films, not great. Never read a novel of his though.

Yeah, I've seen em all except THE BURGLAR (and I've seen the first part of it)

i like NIGHTFALL; Aldo Ray and Anne Bancroft paired really well.

[cigarjoe]

7 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

 

It wasn't Eddie's book .He wasn't promoting his own book It was a biography of the writer of the novel "Dark Passage" is based on, "Goodis: A Life in Black and White", by someone called Phillippe Garnier  (NOT  "Eddie Muller.")

Sepiatone, you always talk about "droning blather".People always seem to be "droning" and "blathering" to you. I must be fortunate in that I rarely experience either droning or blather in myn personal life or when watching TCM.

It's his hearing aid......

[speedracer5]

7 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

 

It wasn't Eddie's book .He wasn't promoting his own book It was a biography of the writer of the novel "Dark Passage" is based on, "Goodis: A Life in Black and White", by someone called Phillippe Garnier  (NOT  "Eddie Muller.")

Sepiatone, you always talk about "droning blather".People always seem to be "droning" and "blathering" to you. I must be fortunate in that I rarely experience either droning or blather in myn personal life or when watching TCM.

I could have sworn that Eddie mentioned Phillippe being a colleague of his as well.  I assume a colleague in the noir community.  I had no issue with Eddie promoting the book, it was relevant to the film and could be a good source for someone who wants to get more information about David Goodis and Dark Passage.  

I also enjoyed Eddie's "blather."  It was interesting and informative.  I also liked his joke about Van Johnson at the end.  I thought it was funny. 

[JamesJazGuitar]

9 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

The Unfaithful (1947) The Burglar (1957) Nightfall (1957) are decent films, not great. Never read a novel of his though.

This is the type of 'connection' info (this author wrote the books that were made into these films),  that I love to get.    Yea,  I have seen all 3 movies and I knew Goodis was the author at the time I saw each of them,  but never made the connection in my mind of 'hey, this guy wrote all 3 of these!'. 

Out of the 3 I like Nightfall the best (yea,  even over The Burglar with Martha Vickers being my #1 gal, and noir icon Dan Duryea).    Sometimes Aldo Ray gets on my nerves but I really like him in Nightfall and all the main cast members give good performances.    I like how the story moves along like a thriller,  and the use of flashbacks in the first half.  

[misswonderly3]

4 hours ago, Arteesto said:

Wow..Bogart thinking that these two mugs are altruistic

 

And they were !

[Swithin]

1 hour ago, speedracer5 said:

How would Madge have tripped and fallen in such a small space and at such a force that she'd break through the glass? I think Madge pulled back the curtain, broke the window with something and jumped out.  

I just looked at the scene again. There's even more evidence. Just before she jumps, she yanks a metal handle off a desk drawer, to help her break the window. Then she pulls the curtain aside, breaks the window, and jumps. 

[ElCid]

2 hours ago, speedracer5 said:

I could have sworn that Eddie mentioned Phillippe being a colleague of his as well.  I assume a colleague in the noir community.  I had no issue with Eddie promoting the book, it was relevant to the film and could be a good source for someone who wants to get more information about David Goodis and Dark Passage.  

I also enjoyed Eddie's "blather."  It was interesting and informative.  I also liked his joke about Van Johnson at the end.  I thought it was funny. 

I thought Eddie said he helped with the translation of the book.  If so, he had a part in its publication in English.  Regardless, he is probably correct in that it the best biography of Goodis, although I haven't read it.  For those who might be interested in more on Goodis.

As I have stated before, I watch the show to hear Eddie.  In fact, I did not watch the movie today, only the intro and outro.  The Van Johnson joke was funny.

[Vautrin]

I got a laugh out of the line where Bogie says to Bacall about liking swing music.

She likes swing music as long as it is legitimate. No fake swing for this music

snob. The guy who played Baker reminded me a bit of Elisa Cook Jr. and of the

small time crooks he often played. The difference was that Cook was too dumb

to come up with an extortion plot like Baker did. I always thought it was weird

how all these people in a big city like San Francisco seemed to know each other.

It's like they really lived in a small town in the Midwest. And I would have loved to

have seen Bogie beat the **** out of that nosy cop in the all night diner. Pow.

Zoom. Madge commit suicide? Never bought that. She was a self-centered pest

who would no more kill herself than she would wear shoes that didn't match her

outfit. The ending is rather interesting. Usually the hero is found to be innocent

of the crime he is charged with, but Bogie can never prove his innocence so he

has to leave the country and hightail it down to Peru to be joined by Bacall. A

happier ending than Alec Guinness had in The Lavender Hill Mob. 

 

[Swithin]

30 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Madge commit suicide? Never bought that.

I always thought it was suicide; now I've looked at the scene again, I don't see how anyone can doubt that. Go back and look at the scene, the way she pulls that metal handle off the desk to break the window. She is filled with such loathing, jealousy, and passion for him at that moment, that she would do anything, including suicide, which she commits.

[ChristineHoard]

7 hours ago, LornaHansonForbes said:

I've read most/all of Jim Thompson, James M Cain, Dashiell Hammett, and most of the minors like Charles Willeford and Frederic Brown; I'm not a Cornell Woolrich fan, but I respect the talent. 

On two occasions in my life I have quit reading books when I was within a few pages of the ending. Both of those books were by DAVID GOODIS. 

They were just that bad. 

I also could not make it through DARK PASSAGE (the novel) but that is largely because it is Word for Word just like the movie (with a few minor exceptions of course.) And I had recently seen the movie so there was no need to read it out.

Believe it or not though, I would probably give him another shot. Does anyone have any recommendations?

Check out Black Friday.  It's considered one of his best.  At 130 pages you can probably get through it.  Anyway, I liked it.  Hardboiled to the max.

[JamesJazGuitar]

28 minutes ago, Swithin said:

I always thought it was suicide; now I've looked at the scene again, I don't see how anyone can doubt that. Go back and look at the scene, the way she pulls that metal handle off the desk to break the window. She is filled with such loathing, jealousy, and passion for him at that moment, that she would do anything, including suicide, which she commits.

Yes,  it is clear she pulls something off of or from the desk.    I have been staying this for years at this forum,  but it goes by so fast I never knew what she was doing, only that she did something that was a deliberate act.   Now that you mention 'pulls that metal handle off to break the window' it all makes sense.    

Clearly a suicide.  BUT for those that disagree;  review that scene again and explain what she was doing right before the window breaks.    

PS:  For those with the book;  How does Marge die in the book?  

[speedracer5]

22 minutes ago, Swithin said:

I always thought it was suicide; now I've looked at the scene again, I don't see how anyone can doubt that. Go back and look at the scene, the way she pulls that metal handle off the desk to break the window. She is filled with such loathing, jealousy, and passion for him at that moment, that she would do anything, including suicide, which she commits.

I've never been convinced that Madge had an accident.  Her whole maneuver behind the curtain was too deliberate.  I don't know how she would have just accidentally fallen out of the window.  There isn't enough room and like you said, why would she go back there and fall? It doesn't make any sense, especially since the window was closed.