Noir Alley

[lavenderblue19]

If you watched this morning, Eddie explained it. In the book Madge kills herself BUT because suicide at that time was NOT permitted in films, they wanted you to believe that it was an accident, not suicide.

[JamesJazGuitar]

4 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

If you watched this morning, Eddie explained it. In the book Madge kills herself BUT because suicide at that time was NOT permitted in films, they wanted you to believe that it was an accident, not suicide.

The 1942 Alan Ladd film, the Glass Key,  clearly has a suicide scene when the publisher of a paper goes up to his room and shoots himself.   I'm fairly sure there were a few other films prior to 1947 when Dark Passage was released.  So if suicide was NOT permitted,  how does one explain that?   

 

 

[lavenderblue19]

That's what that dopey drape was about, we weren't allowed to see her do away with herself, so the drape hid what really happened, but that scream of Madge's made it seem like an accident.

[lavenderblue19]

Next time Eddie shows Dark Passage listen to his comments, he makes it clear that her suicide was NOT permitted. You'll have to ask Eddie to explain his comment LOL

[Looney]

5 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Um, actually that was me (misswonderly) who made that point about trust. Not to be all attention-hoggish or anything, but, just, much as I love Lorna's posts, that observation was mine. (But I know it's easy to get it mixed up sometimes when reading these threads, just who said what...)

I do apologize.  Lorna had several posts in a row right before mine and I just didn't realize I was making a mistake.  I guess I wasn't quite awake.  So sorry.  

[Swithin]

Just looked at the ending of Dark Passage again. It is so obviously a suicide. And it was the metal desk drawer handle that she pulled off, to break the window with. She was in a crazed fury at that point.

She had such a nice apartment, and such a nice desk with nice drawer handles. And a nice window, with drapes. Why put yourself through all that angst over any man?

 

 

[JamesJazGuitar]

8 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

That's what that dopey drape was about, we weren't allowed to see her do away with herself, so the drape hid what really happened, but that scream of Madge's made it seem like an accident.

I agree that it was a suicide and that the director used tricks,  like that dopey drape,  to try to keep it vague;  to imply it could be an accident. 

But it appears Eddie misspoke if he said suicide was NOT permitted in American films.   Maybe he meant to say discouraged?    (or I don't know what he meant by 'permitted').

 

 

[speedracer5]

20 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

If you watched this morning, Eddie explained it. In the book Madge kills herself BUT because suicide at that time was NOT permitted in films, they wanted you to believe that it was an accident, not suicide.

I do remember him saying that, so I suppose that's why Bogart tells Bacall that Madge had an accident.  It's interesting that it seemed like they clearly depicted Madge committing suicide, but then they give Bogart that throwaway line and that somehow appeased the production code.

Another similar situation is Gene Tierney's character in Leave Her to Heaven.  Tierney is so consumed by her jealousy, and resents sister Jeanne Crain's closeness with her husband that she actually commits suicide solely to get her sister framed for her murder. This would make sure that Crain would be forced to stay far away from Tierney's husband.

[JamesJazGuitar]

1 minute ago, Swithin said:

Just looked at the ending of Dark Passage again. It is so obviously a suicide. And it was the metal desk drawer handle that she pulled off, to break the window with. She was in a crazed fury at that point.

She had such a nice apartment, and such a nice desk with nice draw handles. And a nice window, with drapes. Why put yourself through all that angst over any man?

 

 

I believe you have convinced most people that it was suicide.    But if Eddie said suicide wasn't permitted in American films in 1947,  how does one explain films like The Glass Key, made in 1942, with a very clear and obvious suicide.   In this film, after the guy kills himself,  Ladd destroys the suicide note and the suicide note is discussed.    I.e no getting around this was a suicide. 

I find it had to believe the Code was stricter in 1942 then it was in 1947.  

[speedracer5]

3 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I agree that it was a suicide and that the director used tricks,  like that dopey drape,  to try to keep it vague;  to imply it could be an accident. 

But it appears Eddie misspoke if he said suicide was NOT permitted in American films.   Maybe he meant to say discouraged?    (or I don't know what he meant by 'permitted').

Maybe the suicide couldn't be explicit? Thus forcing the filmmakers to be creative in how it was depicted? Hence the dopey drape?

[JamesJazGuitar]

2 minutes ago, speedracer5 said:

I do remember him saying that, so I suppose that's why Bogart tells Bacall that Madge had an accident.  It's interesting that it seemed like they clearly depicted Madge committing suicide, but then they give Bogart that throwaway line and that somehow appeased the production code.

Another similar situation is Gene Tierney's character in Leave Her to Heaven.  Tierney is so consumed by her jealousy, and resents sister Jeanne Crain's closeness with her husband that she actually commits suicide solely to get her sister framed for her murder. This would make sure that Crain would stay far away from Tierney's husband.

The Glass Key was a Paramount picture and Leave Her to Heaven was 20th Century Fox.   

Maybe only Warner Brothers couldn't have a suicide scene (wink).

 

[lavenderblue19]

1 minute ago, speedracer5 said:

I do remember him saying that, so I suppose that's why Bogart tells Bacall that Madge had an accident.  It's interesting that it seemed like they clearly depicted Madge committing suicide, but then they give Bogart that throwaway line and that somehow appeased the production code.

Another similar situation is Gene Tierney's character in Leave Her to Heaven.  Tierney is so consumed by her jealousy, and resents sister Jeanne Crain's closeness with her husband that she actually commits suicide solely to get her sister framed for her murder. This would make sure that Crain would stay far away from Tierney's husband.

Exactly Speedy and Bogart does tell Bacall it was an accident. There's no doubt that appeasing the production code was what they were doing. In Gene's case we don't see her taking the poison we know that's what happened but we don't actually see her swallowing the poison and that's the same situation.

[speedracer5]

1 minute ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

The Glass Key was a Paramount picture and Leave Her to Heaven was 20th Century Fox.   

Maybe only Warner Brothers couldn't have a suicide scene (wink).

Lol.  Which is surprising considering all those weepies and gangster films they put out! ?

[JamesJazGuitar]

4 minutes ago, speedracer5 said:

Maybe the suicide couldn't be explicit? Thus forcing the filmmakers to be creative in how it was depicted? Hence the dopey drape?

Ah,  that is likely what Eddie meant;   There could be a suicide but it had to be off camera.   Thanks

(and I'm glad in Dark Passage that Marge's death wasn't off camera because seeing Moorehead chewing up the scenery is one of the things I love about this film!   (since both Bogie and Bacall are rather subdued in this one).

 

[speedracer5]

1 minute ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Ah,  that is likely what Eddie meant;   There could be a suicide but it had to be off camera.   Thanks

(and I'm glad in Dark Passage that Marge's death wasn't off camera because seeing Moorehead chewing up the scenery is one of the things I love about this film!   (since both Bogie and Bacall are rather subdued in this one).

Moorehead's big showdown with Bogart is my favorite part of the film! My second favorite part is the plastic surgery scene.

I love Agnes Moorehead.  She would be a prime candidate for SOTM.  She is getting SUTS honors this year, so I'll take what I can get! 

[lavenderblue19]

Since both Agnes and Gene were women maybe that's part of the reason it was considered taboo to show a woman committing suicide. The Glass Key was a MAN killing himself. Bogart does not say Madge killed herself, he says it was an accident. We are suppose to believe it was an accident, again to appease the production code. 

[Swithin]

17 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

The Glass Key was a Paramount picture and Leave Her to Heaven was 20th Century Fox.   

Maybe only Warner Brothers couldn't have a suicide scene (wink).

 

Vivian Leigh commits suicide in Waterloo Bridge (1940). Maybe the Code allowed her to, because she had sort of become a prostitute (though with ample cause). In the case of Dark Passage, one could view the suicide as a kind of capital punishment for all the murders Madge committed.

[lavenderblue19]

Excellent point Swithin, but of course her dying due to an accident would also be the punishment for the murders she committed. After all, death is death, no matter how  LOL

[lavenderblue19]

What I found interesting was that slimey guy who falls off the cliff when he and Bogart are fighting. The justification for his death and Bogart not feeling bad was because he was going to extort all of Lauren's money.

Agnes had to die one way or another for the murders she committed. Again production code rules. Even in the novel, justice was served.

btw, wasn't David Goodis a wonderful talent. A sad life he had, but his ideas were brilliant.

[Vautrin]

4 hours ago, Swithin said:

I always thought it was suicide; now I've looked at the scene again, I don't see how anyone can doubt that. Go back and look at the scene, the way she pulls that metal handle off the desk to break the window. She is filled with such loathing, jealousy, and passion for him at that moment, that she would do anything, including suicide, which she commits.

Perhaps she pulled the metal handle off the desk to use as an impromptu weapon against

Bogie, who is certainly menacing her in this scene. Not thinking too clearly, she stepped

into the window ledge to get away from Bogie and with being somewhat overweight

slipped and fell against the window which broke, maybe due to the shoddy construction

of some post war buildings, and sent her to the street below. And as I said before, she

never struck me as the suicidal type.

 

[Swithin]

23 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Perhaps she pulled the metal handle off the desk to use as an impromptu weapon against

Bogie, who is certainly menacing her in this scene. Not thinking too clearly, she stepped

into the window ledge to get away from Bogie and with being somewhat overweight

slipped and fell against the window which broke, maybe due to the shoddy construction

of some post war buildings, and sent her to the street below. And as I said before, she

never struck me as the suicidal type.

I think it was a pre-war building. ?

Another intense falling-out-of-the-window scene took place in another Bacall movie: Confidential Agent (1945). But in that case, a woman who is easily as evil as Madge (Mrs. Melandez, played to the hilt by Katina Paxinou) pushes poor little Wanda Hendrix out of the window. When Mrs. Melandez's evils are discovered, she commits suicide, just like our Madge.

Here are Katina and Wanda, pre-push:

And here is Katina, as the poison she took is working:

 

[Vautrin]

1 hour ago, Swithin said:

I think it was a pre-war building. ?

Another intense falling-out-of-the-window scene took place in another Bacall movie: Confidential Agent (1945). But in that case, a woman who is easily as evil as Madge (Mrs. Melandez, played to the hilt by Katina Paxinou) pushes poor little Wanda Hendrix out of the window. When Mrs. Melandez's evils are discovered, she commits suicide, just like our Madge.

Here are Katina and Wanda, pre-push:

And here is Katina, as the poison she took is working:

 

Poison is usually considered a woman's method of killing someone, including

one's self. Maybe the people who worked on Dark Passage made Moorehead's

end ambiguous as a way to protest the Production Code.

[Swithin]

8 hours ago, speedracer5 said:

Moorehead's big showdown with Bogart is my favorite part of the film! My second favorite part is the plastic surgery scene.

That plastic surgery scene is something! Imagine getting a referral from a cab driver, and then having the surgery right away! I don't think I would take any medical referral from a NYC cab driver.

[cigarjoe]

10 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I find it had to believe the Code was stricter in 1942 then it was in 1947.  

It may have been a case of who benefited, my memory about this is vague since it's been awhile but, I've read that Breen had a personal hand in some productions of which he let slide some things while bringing the hammer down on others.

[Sepiatone]

17 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Sepiatone, you always talk about "droning blather".People always seem to be "droning" and "blathering" to you. I must be fortunate in that I rarely experience either droning or blather in my personal life or when watching TCM.

That would just have me thinking you don't tune into "Noir Alley" all that much.   

Sepiatone