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Okay let me set the scene for you.

 

I was cranky last night. Things were getting on my last nerve. I was in no mood for *Wuthering Heights*. I had seen it maybe twenty-five years ago and didn't care for it all that much. I was just a kid though so what did I know? I didn't remember a thing about the film really. Just a few basic points. A Bob Hope film would have suited my mood better, but no, I wasn't going to take the easy way out yet again! I was determined to give this film a try.

 

So about 3:30am I went out on the dark sun porch where I watch all my movies. I gathered my assorted lifesaver candies and my ginger ale and cranberry with crushed ice and a twist of lime. It was a dark night and the air was autumn crisp. I put in the DVD. I have a decent copy of this film with good sound. I vowed no headphones tonight. I was going to watch this film AND I was going to hear it. I cranked the volume up. No one lives that close but the opening music could probably be heard for miles! I didn't care. Molo was going to the movies and the rest of the world be damned! I lit up a cig and fixated on the silver image that was the only thing illuminating the blackness that engulfed me.

 

I watched as this lone figure made his way through howling wind and driving snow as he approached Wuthering Heights. As he entered the gloomy house and fixed his eyes on the brooding occupants, I met Heathcliff. I had met my match. Here was a man so consumed by bitterness that my own pitiful crankiness could only shrink back in awe...

 

So that was how I began *Wuthering Heights* :)

 

*Major Spoilers ahead*

 

Now on to some comments and observations. I have been reading the ongoing discussion and found it interesting.

 

*_Frank wrote:_* *I must say, I really don't like the pomp of these English-set films. It absolutely kills me.*

 

*_Jackie wrote:_* *And Goddess is right. If Wuthering Heights were a noir film with Mitchum and Jane Greer in the roles you would be eating it up with a spoon.*

 

*_Frank again:_* *Quite possibly. But then there would be things going on other than snobby dances! All this pride and prejudice... blah!*

 

I kind of figured from the lack of screencaps that Frank wasn't a fan of this film. :) I have to agree that this kind of film with it's upper class British society themes and the extreme class consciousness, particularly in this period of English history, gets on my nerves. I find it annoying and if the film doesn't carry the story properly I can be completely put off from the film.

 

I thought Wuthering Heights, toward the beginning, might just do that. I tend to get all angry though and want the lower class characters to fight back. It was Heathcliff's rather indecisive reaction to it all that kind of hooked me in. I just wasn't sure if I liked him or not. I was waiting, like Kathy perhaps, for him to show his steel.

 

He threatens everyone at the party after he and Kathy are caught by the dogs. I liked that scene. Yet, when Kathy arrives back at Wuthering Heights and Ellen starts calling out Heathcliff's name I think I said to myself He's still here before Kathy did. I understood her frustration at that point.

 

And so it went with these two characters.

 

*_Rohanaka writes:_* (I have to paraphrase because I can not find your quote anymore) "I hate both characters". (is that about right?)

 

*_Frank writes:_* *I didn't like either of them*

 

I think this is what really fascinates me about this film. I hated them and liked them in turns, depending on certain scenes. I could never really clarify my feelings towards them. In the end I came a way with a fairly negative view of them both that was tempered by the whole tragic aspect of the situation.

 

I guess that is what is meant by being in love - Blanche in *A Streetcar named Desire*

 

In order to do this I had to seriously think about what it is to be in love. A tried to remember a time, before the long endless years of deprivation and neglect :D , when ol' Molo's heart wasn't the hardened cinder it is today. Then I had to put those feelings into the characters. I think this is easier for women to do this, but I tried.

 

So I was angry with Heathcliff for not taking Kathy's challenge and leaving the Heights to make something of himself. Then I thought of Heathcliff, and a love so overwhelming that he just couldn't bear to be apart from her long enough to give it a go.

 

I was angry at Kathy, for not taking Heathcliff's invitation to run away together. To start from scratch. This was harder for me to comprehend. I guess she did want a knight, a prince, whatever. The point is this film, due to the dynamics of the characters, forced me to seriously consider the nature of love, where in other films I might just have accepted it as "the face value" love story. Do I sound shallow? :)

 

*_Jackie wrote:_* *I absolutely love the way the movie is bookended - Flora Robson's voice-over starts the ball rolling and the whole introduction of Miles Mander, the lost traveler in the snow.....foolish, stumbling in on something he cannot fathom. I love the way the beginning and the end play. It really is exciting and scary, the ghost story being told..... the way that Heathcliffe and Isabella turn to look at the stranger, and how everything in the house is so....unkempt.....dead....*

 

*The cinematography - good old black and white never looked more magical.*

 

Jackie I loved your description and I agree about how the story was bookended by Ellen's narration. It really set the mood for the whole film. It certainly got to me. I really like the character of Ellen too. She reflects so much of the events around her in her face. The happy and the tragic.

 

You have all said so much about the film already, that it is hard to add anything new. I will try and go back and comment on some specific points each of you brought up in another post. I just wanted to get my impressions out there before everyone moved on.

 

So yes, I really liked the film. It hooked me in. It made me think about the true nature of love. It had me pondering the heated emotions of passion and how love can boil over into hate. I think both Heathcliff and Kathy had to harden themselves to survive at all. She couldn't live with her actions. He let his bitterness drive him forward. It gave him something to live for. Perhaps you can only truly put your whole heart into hating something if it is all you have ever cared about or wanted. The true depths of Heathcliff's bitterness was really something to behold.

 

I was impressed and a little surprised. Despite my apprehension going into the film and my initial resistance to the story, it completely won me over. I think it really does deserve the praise many have given it. Interesting that such a dark story would unleash whatever romanticism I had locked up inside myself. When it ended I sat there alone, in the dark, and applauded! I don't usually do that.

 

Edited by: molo14 on Sep 12, 2010 4:38 AM

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Hey there Frank,

 

 

*_Frank wrote:_* *All right, I was able to finish Wuthering Heights. My first impression is great disappointment. I thought the film was overcooked and tedious. I liked a couple moments in the film, but that was about it. Robert Osborne spoke of some choosing it over Gone with the Wind for best picture of 1939. Oh, my. I prefer Rhett and Scarlett's tortured romance.*

 

Frank, Frank, Frank. You're never going to have peace with the ladies of this forum if you remain so hardheaded about romantic dramas! :) And throwing a bone to Rhett and Scarlett won't save you either. It won't help my case to mention that I preferred the give and take of Heathcliff and Cathy. It's a much darker story. I thought you liked that sort of thing.

 

*Yeah, but he sells out. I understand why he does, because he loves Cathy (Merle Oberon). He wants to prove she's wrong. Blah. I prefer Larry (Tyrone Power) in The Razor's Edge. I did like that Heathcliffe (Lawrence Olivier) spoke of his being miserable despite being "presentable" and rich.*

 

I'm not sure I get this. What exactly were Heathcliff's options? He was a hard luck case from the beginning. I'm not even convinced he was all that bright. He was like a puppy around Cathy, stealing away time with her when he could. His emotions ruled him. He was her prisoner. He took everything from Hindley just to be near her. He couldn't bring himself to leave without her and she tried to get him to do so. I don't think there were ever any pretensions to nobleness in his character.

 

He lost all he wanted to the upper class sops. Eventually revenge became his only real motivation. That was no surprise. His actions were plenty extreme and he didn't care who got hurt but that is just a matter of degrees. I don't see his character ever coming to a moment of moral decision. He said early on that he would have his revenge and he did what he had to do to accomplish it.

 

( I haven't seen *The Razor's Edge* recently enough to get your reference.)

 

*Yeah, I understand Cathy and her wants. Women! The heck with love!*

 

Here I'm with you. I have a harder time with Cathy. She should have left with him but she wasn't strong enough to do that. That was her fatal flaw. Did she truly love him as much as he loved her? If so then why was she so afraid?

 

*My two favorite moments in the film are Cathy's, though. I liked it when she ripped the dress off. Perfect. And I liked that she told Heathcliffe, as she was dying, that she wished for him to scold her. I believe she said something to that effect. That's good stuff.*

 

I agree. I also liked when she first kicked Edgar out of her house. She was totally conflicted, she couldn't stay on a firm course until Heathcliff left her, then she only held firm for show. I think. :)

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Holy Molo!!!

 

"So about 3:30am I went out on the dark sun porch where I watch all my movies. I gathered my assorted lifesaver candies and my ginger ale and cranberry with crushed ice and a twist of lime. It was a dark night and the air was autumn crisp."

 

What a wonderful opening. I thought I was reading Edgar Allan Poe. Great!! Do you watch on a t.v., a DVD player, your computer????? What?

 

Great!! This cracked me up!!!!

 

"Molo was going to the movies and the rest of the world be damned! "

 

Are there bears in your neck of the woods?

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> {quote:title=MissGoddess wrote:}{quote}

> > Bon soir, Goddess!

> > >

>

> Bon soir, Mamselle!

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8EhV6APBFI

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

C'est formidable, merci!! I love Dick's rendition of this lovely song, beautiful, so rich and soulful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> :D I agree about Gene, actually

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, you understand perfectly!

>

> > FANTASTIC!! Wow! Good going!! Barry Fitzgerald's brother in DAUGHTER OF DR. JEKYLL, as you've neve seen him, lol. DR. X is a classic early Warner's horror-thriller that I can never watch in the dark. I've always been shocked by the identity of the "Moon" killer, and for years couldn't watch that actor in any other movie without thinking of him here. "Synthetic flesh!" Scary stuff! So pleased you went out of perhaps your comfort zone, to see these.

>

> I was ASTONISHED to see sweet Reverend Playfair (The Quiet Man) playing a Mad Scientist!!! Oh wow!! Actually two Fordian stars because John Agar (Mr Shirley Temple) was in it, too. And my DVD had a cute interview with Agar in his later years (looking so gaunt I took him for William Wellman, at first). He was quite bemused at the popularity of what he called his "Science Fiction" movies. He seemed to skirt the word "horror". :D:D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Probably the only thing rising up to meet Arthur Shields in DAUGHTER OF DR. JEKYLL would be the usual group of angry villagers carrying torches. I actually haven't seen the movie in a while, but I do remember that John Agar wears a silly jacket with large stripes that make him look like one of the inhabitants of "The Prisoner" (all that's missing is a scarf)

Agar to me was always creepy looking, perfect type-casting for horror (yes, John, HORROR!) and sci-fi movies. He had this scary grin, intensified by high cheekbones. Together with a perpetual maniacal glint in his eyes and a psycho laugh, it's no wonder the supernatural and alien worlds were where he flourished best, much I'm sure to his chagrin. But who, for instance, can forget his performance in THE BRAIN FROM PLANET AROUS? How much poorer would all these grade B,C, and Z masterpieces be without Agar? He really must have aged (maybe alcohol was involved) to look like Wild Bill, lol. John in his prime had a moon-face and rugged build. I'm so glad Shirley found long-lasting happiness in her second marriage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> I really enjoyed it, especially the "dream" sequences....was that another actress they used for Gloria Talbot's moonlit "trysts", lol? It didn't look like her. I thought Ulmer achieved some good effects and with a cast of familiar favorites, I found myself really getting into it. But I couldn't quite figure out if it takes place in England or America, ha, because John and Gloria had such American accents but she was the daughter of Henry Jekyll.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was probably Gloria's double, although with the low budget, who knows if they could even afford one. Ulmer certainly knew how to use a fog machine. The story took place in a mythical Hollywood kingdom called The United States of Great Britain.

>

> Loved the last scene, ha!! "Are you suuuuuuuuuuure?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL, that was the corny outro, right? With you-know-who addressing the camera in full monster regalia?

>

> *Doctor X* was a lot of fun and VERY thrilling and spooky. Wonderful sets and

> the monster make-up ("synthetic flesh"!) really creeped me out! When I first saw

> the monster sneak up on Lee Tracy I about jumped out of my (real) skin! I like

> Lee a lot in this, too, by the way, and appreciated his "Lou Costello" moments,

> they made me laugh. I am becoming more appreciative of Lionel Atwill, too.

>

> I was never so surprised as to learn who the real "Moonlight Killer" was! So

> this was your first glimpse of him as an actor? I had never seen him so young

> and was surprised to see him in such a "colorful" role and genre! He was always

> the opposite to me: rather staid, steady and "he man", lol. I'm looking forward

> to seeing *Return of Doctor X* next, with Bogie in that wild get up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, I'd first seen the Moon killer in his "normal" roles, most notably a more mature part in a famous children's story that I believe was the first screen version filmed. (he was also in the sequel)

(the original is actually one of my all-time faves, and one I loved as a kid, and still do) Then I saw him in a memorable (but frightening in its own way) movie set in ancient Rome. perhaps one of the first "disaster" stories. So you'd think I wouldn't be creeped out by seeing him in DR. X, but it took a long time for me to "accept" him once more in his more typical performances. I've always appreciated Lee Tracy (he's terrific in THE BEST MAN) He's urban, wise-cracking, the ultiimate newspaper guy, willing to do anything to get a good story. As for Atwill, that sharp, clipped voice of his cuts like a knife, and he makes his chilling presence known in every role.

 

I'm loving everyone's WUTHERING HEIGHTS discussions. I'll have to re-watch it soon and offer up my own thoughts.

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Hi CineMaven,

 

Ha! The lifesavers and drink ( and most importantly the movie) are part of my "ritual" which is a term we insomniacs use. It is supposed to help you sleep better.

 

*Do you watch on a t.v., a DVD player, your computer????? What?*

 

 

I have a tv out there hooked up to cable and a dvd player. The porch is enclosed so I can use it in winter too. The walls are all lined with windows which of course I have open this time of year.

 

*Are there bears in your neck of the woods?*

 

Yes there are. Never had a problem with them though. Maybe they sit quietly and watch the movies from the window. It's pretty rare to actually see one though. I do occasionally see an entire herd of deer in my yard if I happen to turn on the floodlights. Still it's nothing compared to what goes on in Bronxie's neighborhood! :)

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Hi Miss G.,

 

*_Miss Goddess wrote:_* *Cathy is more problematic, but I have to confess to understanding her conflicts. She's living a harsh life and she sees "the pretty lights" of the neighboring estate and she's*

*young enough to put too much emphasis on these delights. Also, Heathcliffe is, as she*

*says, not making any effort to better himself and make a life for them. He just lives to*

*be near her and desires nothing else...he has NO ambitions in life. That is why it is*

*ironic that not love, but thwarted desire and jealousy drives him to finally be ambitious...*

*just so he can show Cathy what she lost.*

 

Interesting analysis of Cathy. I can see why she had problems with Heathcliff and the whole motivation thing. Heathcliff was so open in his adoration. Perhaps it was too much for Cathy, nothing was required on her part. He left no doubt about his feelings for her.

 

*She was blinded by the "bright lights". Like the country girl who is dying to go to the big city. Of course, as long as Hindley was around, NO ONE had a chance to be happy. In my opinion, he was the poison that spoiled the barrel because he controlled the estate. Cathy couldn't leave, she was dependent on him and so was Heathcliffe who'd scarcely be employed anywhere else due to the prejudice against "gypsies" and Hindley would have spread the word against him if he ever left, too*.

 

Well he went to America, as I think Frank pointed out. They would have had a chance there. She could have taken the risk and depended on Heathcliff. Maybe it was that Heathcliff had never given her any confidence that he could take care of her.

 

*I despised Hindley so much. It's the ultimate example of the thankless brat that parents work hard and leave everything to. Better to give their goods away to gypsies. I'll be frank and say my favorite scenes are not between Heathcliffe and Cathy, but between Heathcliffe and Hindley.*

 

I really despised Hindley too. There wasn't much provided to like about his character. I could understand how he was threatened by Heathcliff's arrival in the first place but that is about it.

 

I really like the scenes between Heathcliff and Hindley as well. I thought it was interesting and a little sadistically amusing to see Heathcliff insist that Hindley keep his gun with him. I guess Heathcliff was hoping that Hindley would "do the right thing". Whatever happened to him anyway? Did I miss something?

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Hi ya Ro,

 

*_Rohanaka wrote:_* *And when it comes to Heathcliff and Cathy.. I don't SEE the love.. all I see is the passion. They are on "passion" overload, in fact. Don't misunderstand.. they DO love each other.. but it is that "all consuming passion" sort of love that burns brightly, but does not warm the heart of one person toward another.*

 

I agree. They are on passion overload. That is a good way to put it.

 

*I do think there was a "level of love" they each had for the other.. but it was such a possessive and very much self centered sort of love that I don't think it would ever bring them true happiness. And it just made them seem to be (to me) entirely too self absorbed to be all that sympathetic.*

 

That's very true. I don't know if I hate them. I think as characters they are both very interesting but I never viewed them as sympathetic except when they both suffer at the end. THEN I get weak and start feeling bad for them.

 

*And to me the most tragic thing of all is how they LOVE each other so much they begin to hate each other for it.. oh me.. it is a powerful concept.*

 

I think that is what I like most about the story. It's fascinating. ((I sound like Spock don't I? I need to come up with new words)) It really is though. It leaves an impact when it's over and it stays with you.

 

*I think this story is a TRAGIC tale of love gone wrong as much as anything else. Basically it is just one huge lesson in how NOT to treat your true love (if you ever want to be happy this side of the grave) (ha)*

 

That about sums it up. I also think, however, that there is an inevitability to it all. People will always act on raw emotion and when they feel hurt or wronged with such intensity, they will self destruct. (Optimist that I am! :) )

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> {quote:title=molo14 wrote:}{quote}

> Ha! Now don't make me paranoid!

>

> Remember that snake incident a year or two back? It was months before I finally got the courage to turn the lights off again! :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do indeed recall that slimy snake which plagued you. But at the very least, the good thing about frogs is, they have LEGS, they don't stalk in silence crawling along their bellies. Frogs are fat and ugly and they SCREAM, but, hey, that just lets you know they're there! Would you ever know with a snake?

 

So it's almost morning, I just finished watching WUTHERING HEIGHTS on YouTube. I hear ice melting and hope that James Arness as a giant vegetable is not coming to life. However, it's only my frost-ridden air conditioner. My lower back hurts and I must get some shut-eye.

 

Back to Cathy and Heathcliff later today.

 

(caught HIGH SIERRA this evening. Just when exactly did Roy and Marie get married? They must have gone to the Production Code wedding license bureau)

 

Edited by: Bronxgirl48 on Sep 12, 2010 5:48 AM

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What's the word, Grahame's Guy -- I think it's awesome that you watched Wuthering Heights this time with a "show me" attitude and came away loving it. I always like those kind of experiences, myself. And I really enjoyed reading the set-up prior to your viewing. That was great!

 

Cathy, I mean, Miss G was completely right about how I'd react to this film. She knew I'd hate Cathy. If I ever want to get upset at woman, this is the film I'd watch. And, you know, in this regard, the film is absolutely brilliant. But I never want to get to a point where I hate woman. I don't want to end up like Heathcliff.

 

Frank, Frank, Frank. You're never going to have peace with the ladies of this forum if you remain so hardheaded about romantic dramas! :)

 

But I like some of them! I'm the one who likes An Affair to Remember! I also like Now, Voyager!

 

And throwing a bone to Rhett and Scarlett won't save you either. It won't help my case to mention that I preferred the give and take of Heathcliff and Cathy.

 

I only did that because of what Robert Osborne said about some critics preferring Wuthering Heights to Gone with the Wind in 1939. I find the latter to be far more engrossing.

 

It's a much darker story. I thought you liked that sort of thing.

 

It is a much darker story, this is true. It probably is more my speed but I think had a visceral response to it. Scarlett is pretty much a spoiled child. All of her actions are so doggone childish and selfish. She never really disguises it. Cathy upsets me because she's the kind of woman I just don't like. She'll talk to you about love and tell you how important it is to her and then dump you for something that sparkles. She's a phony.

 

I think my disgust stems from I'd never personally fall for a "Scarlett" but I would fall for a "Cathy." I would trust Cathy.

 

I'm not sure I get this. What exactly were Heathcliff's options? He was a hard luck case from the beginning. I'm not even convinced he was all that bright. He was like a puppy around Cathy, stealing away time with her when he could. His emotions ruled him. He was her prisoner. He took everything from Hindley just to be near her. He couldn't bring himself to leave without her and she tried to get him to do so. I don't think there were ever any pretensions to nobleness in his character.

 

He lost all he wanted to the upper class sops. Eventually revenge became his only real motivation. That was no surprise. His actions were plenty extreme and he didn't care who got hurt but that is just a matter of degrees. I don't see his character ever coming to a moment of moral decision. He said early on that he would have his revenge and he did what he had to do to accomplish it.

 

( I haven't seen The Razor's Edge recently enough to get your reference.)

 

Larry Darrell (Tyrone Power) returns from the war a changed man. He is promptly greeted by his love, Isabel (Gene Tierney). Isabel wants him to become a certain kind of man. She insists it. Larry leaves Isabel, choosing to go find "himself." Eventually, Isabel tracks him down and the flames of love are reignited. But, once again, Isabel starts to talk about how Larry must be if he's to be with her. Larry tells her, no thanks. He ends up going to get a job on the docks versus getting into the world of money and pomp. Larry wasn't going to lose who he was to be with Isabel. Isabel wanted a male doll to play with.

 

Cathy wants to lead a certain life. That's what is most important to her, not love. She is similar to Isabel, in this regard. She wants her male doll. Heathcliff isn't interested in leading such a life. He spits on such people who make up such a world, mainly for how they have treated him. But, instead of staying true to himself, he ends up joining such a world. And there he sits in misery with his great danes. Could he have enjoyed such a world with Cathy? Probably. But he would have enjoyed any world so long as he was with Cathy. His love is true. Cathy's love is false. I believe Cathy only loved that Heathcliff loved her. And she used that against him.

 

It's the falseness of Cathy that drives me nuts. At least Scarlett and Isabel let you know right up front that they're not in it for love. You know what you're getting into with them. But Cathy is playing games. But, like I said, the warning signs are there with Cathy's attempting to build Heathcliff up when they are children. She does this for HER sake, not his. And it's really HER dream that the two of them view through the window. She doesn't care who is with her in that dream, so long as she's in that room.

 

So, if I'm reading Emily Bront? correctly, she's making a commentary on how young girls dream of a world more so than a love. They'd rather have the "world" than the "love." I'm on the "dream of a love" side of the coin. I could care less about the world. In fact, I prefer you keep your world.

 

Jackie is very correct when she says I'm "Heathcliff." Although, I may be more like "Larry Darrell." Well, minus the spirituality.

 

Here I'm with you. I have a harder time with Cathy. She should have left with him but she wasn't strong enough to do that. That was her fatal flaw. Did she truly love him as much as he loved her? If so then why was she so afraid?

 

I don't believe it's that she wasn't strong enough it's not what she wanted. She wanted Heathcliff to go off and become rich and then come back and "save her." Meanwhile, she runs and jumps into the arms of the first guy who can provide her with what she REALLY wants. I don't like this lass. As I say, I believe she represents the worst of woman. She's not one to commit to love for it just doesn't interest her enough. It's not good enough.

 

I agree. I also liked when she first kicked Edgar out of her house. She was totally conflicted, she couldn't stay on a firm course until Heathcliff left her, then she only held firm for show. I think.

 

For show? Not Cathy! No! :D

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I really have to stand up for Cathy here. Geez, can't a girl make a mistake? People do it all the time - and if they both were perfect people, think how boring the film would be!

 

I think both Cathy AND Heathcliff were driven by their love/hate relationship with the gentry. They were driven apart by the bloodless, feckless folks who saw them as nothing and treated people like property. Those people inside the mansion saw nothing they did not want to see - until Cathy and Heathcliff shattered their blinders.

 

And the worst thing is that someone like Edgar never even knew he was doing anything at all - by simply living his life as a manor born "gentleman" - taking what he wanted when he saw it , no matter how benignly - he (and Hindley) destroyed two people. He couldn't help being who he was any more than Cathy and Heathcliff could help who they were - they are all shaped by their surroundings and their background. One could even say that, (in the context of this film) Cathy's father destroyed Heathcliff by taking him out of the gutter and then forgetting about him, allowing Hindley to torment him. Where was he when Hindley was tearing the wings off of flies and beating stable boys? These landed "gentlemen" were either cruel, or hopelessly weak or, more to the point, blind. I guess this is my week to see blindness in characters! Either way, they are responsible (again in the world of this movie) for ruining Cathy and Heathcliff. When these two worlds collide, something or someone has to give. Cathy and Heathcliff had no choices, they were pawns of the upper class, or at least of that system, and they each responded in the only way a man or a woman could, when forced to make choices out of tremendous want.

 

Think of Cathy and Heathcliff as the two children under the robe in Dickens' *A Christmas Carol* - want and ignorance.

 

I think my main problem with the movie is in Merle Oberon's performance - I like her, but I long for an actress who could help me understand Cathy a little more. Both she and Heathcliff act out of want - so there is really no difference to me between them - Both are weak, but they are that way because of a childhood of deprivation. I think one problem is that Oberon is so round and well fed looking that we don't see her real despair and real want.

 

Each retaliates against their deprivation in a different way - and that is where the man/woman thing becomes apparent. Heathcliff retaliates as a man would - by going out and getting things, and Cathy retaliates as a woman ONLY could back then - by BECOMING a rich man's thing.

 

Cathy never lied to Heathcliff - she said, in effect, I am not strong enough to fight - you will have to fight for us both.... but he was not ready, and he missed his opportunity. It only comes once, in this story.

 

They are just as deluded and mistaken as the characters in *Notorious* - each hurting the other because they love. Each misunderstanding the motivations of the other. Cathy did not know what became of Heathcliff, she was to sit by and wait and wait perhaps forever? Or was she to try to make a decent life for herself... I do not see anything wrong with her actions, and she did try to behave nobly once married to Edgar.

 

As much as I understand your feelings, Frank, I have nothing but sympathy for Cathy and Heathcliff - Cathy simply could not resist when Edgar offered her that life - and you make it seem like she had a choice - but in those days the other choice very likely would have meant death to her and to Heathcliff and to their dreams. You are looking at this as if it were happening nowadays, when someone can rise up through the ranks - even a WOMAN. Cathy was practical, as many women are practical, but her reliance on a man saving her was not some kind of character flaw - it was THE WAY THINGS WERE back then. She had no choice.

 

I am with MissG wholeheartedly on this - If Heathcliff had not made the mistake of wanting to stay abject and miserable, Cathy would not have made the mistake she made - neither could help themselves. Their mistakes though, are the stuff of great romance.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 12, 2010 10:29 AM

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 12, 2010 10:33 AM

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I completely disagree. I didn't see what you saw with Wuthering Heights and "Cathy." I saw a girl who wanted a specific way of life and that was what was most important to her. She starts by attempting to create a "new" Heathcliff, one she could accept. Then she looks in the window and dreams of being in that life. What happens next is she finds herself IN this life. This is her real dream. Heathcliff really isn't a part of this dream unless he can provide for her the lifestyle she wants. She decides he cannot, thusly abandoning his love for her love.

 

As I was saying before, it's the desire of a world versus the desire of a love. She chose the "world." Ultimately, this is what she wanted, so she gets what she wants. And she knows what she's doing. We see this via Edgar's first kiss. At first, she's hesitant. She knows it's all wrong when it comes to her feelings. She doesn't love Edgar. Heathcliff is the man she loves. But she chooses to kiss Edgar a second time, knowing full well of what she's doing. She doesn't choose Edgar over Heathcliff, she chooses a lifestyle (world) over Heathcliff (love).

 

You're right, she's practical, but she's no romantic. She spit on love. And she does so with a clear mind.

 

If I were Heathcliff, I'd want to toss her out the window.

 

And now hearing that Emily Bront? was basically the "anti-Jane Austen," it all makes great sense to me. I must say, when I look at the story as it being the reckless result of selfish fairytales, it's absolutely perfect. It's turning princess fairytales around. That's genius, actually. So all of this discussion is helping me like Wuthering Heights, at least the story. It really is "film noir," as you say. Cathy is a selfish girl who ends up ruining a boy who deeply loves her. And for what? For all that sparkles. That's a classic, to be sure.

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I don't think you disagree with us as much as you think. Like molo says, it's a matter of degree. Where you maybe depart is you seem to think Cathy is one-note instead of conflicted. You don't even seem to want to credit how split in two she is, and this makes her much more interesting than the usual femme fatale. Take the other Cathy, the one in OUT OF THE PAST. Does she ever show any real love for boy? Isn't it all games from the start? Can you honestly say our Cathy is that bad? She really DOES love Heathcliffe in a way she'll NEVER love Lytton, but she is torn and too weak to even want to fight her desire for worldly vanities for long. But the conflict is there, and it ruins her happiness, ruins Lytton's, ruins Heathcliffe and then herself.

 

And I think you and molo must remember that it would be pretty tough for Heathcliffe to get Cathy to America. He doubtless worked his passage across or at best, was in a hellish sort of "steerage" class that would have killed Cathy, as Jackie points out. He would HAVE to go to America first and then send for her. As Jackie, said these two people had no choices...you have no idea how limited choices in England were for people like them. For women, young women, without references, only ONE line of "work" lay open but this is Wuthering Heights, not Forever Amber. :D

 

I would think Cathy was your dream character of them all, she by your account beats the gals in Decoy, Out of the Past, Gun Crazy and a million other noirs by a mile, yet you can't stand her. What a table turner! Usually it's me saying I hate a character because they're bad. You usually LOVE characters that are awful. You call them "entertaining". How come Cathy isn't causing you a laugh riot, then?

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I don't think you disagree with us as much as you think.

 

Really? I'm tossing Cathy out that window!

 

Like molo says, it's a matter of degree. Where you maybe depart is you seem to think Cathy is one-note instead of conflicted. You don't even seem to want to credit how split in two she is, and this makes her much more interesting than the usual femme fatale.

 

Yes, I do believe she is somewhat conflicted, hence her hesitation with Edgar. Still, she goes through with it. She always does. I don't respect her at all.

 

Take the other Cathy, the one in OUT OF THE PAST. Does she ever show any real love for boy? Isn't it all games from the start?

 

You've got it. She's playing a guy.

 

Can you honestly say our Cathy is that bad?

 

WORSE. And the reason I say that is because I believe Cathy DOES love Heathcliff and she chooses a LIFESTYLE over him. "Kathie Moffat" doesn't love "Jeff." In my book, this makes Cathy WAY WORSE.

 

She really DOES love Heathcliffe in a way she'll NEVER love Lytton, but she is torn and too weak to even want to fight her desire for worldly vanities for long. But the conflict is there, and it ruins her happiness, ruins Lytton's, ruins Heathcliffe and then herself.

 

The only thing that ruins her is that she has to FACE Heathcliff and her killing their love. If she didn't have to do that, she'd have no problem living out her life. To me, that's heartless.

 

You know, must I say it again, the character is really fascinating to me because she really does represent an evil woman to me. So talking about this has helped me appreciate the film and story a lot more.

 

And I think you and molo must remember that it would be pretty tough for Heathcliffe to get Cathy to America. He doubtless worked his passage across or at best, was in a hellish sort of "steerage" class that would have killed Cathy, as Jackie points out. He would HAVE to go to America first and then send for her. As Jackie, said these two people had no choices...you have no idea how limited choices in England were for people like them. For women, young women, without references, only ONE line of "work" lay open but this is Wuthering Heights, not Forever Amber. :D

 

I know you and Jackie are attempting to free Cathy from any kind of guilt by saying she had zero choice but to abandon Heathcliff for Edgar. If I felt her motivations were purely out of survival, I'd be on your side. I'd feel this was a tragic love story. But the way Cathy carries on with her WANT of that world tells me all I need to know about her. It's not about survival, it's about wanting that world. "Oh, I really didn't want to stay that night but I had no choice because I was starving." I just don't buy it.

 

I would think Cathy was your dream character of them all, she by your account beats the gals in Decoy, Out of the Past, Gun Crazy and a million other noirs by a mile, yet you can't stand her. What a table turner! Usually it's me saying I hate a character because they're bad. You usually LOVE characters that are awful. You call them "entertaining". How come Cathy isn't causing you a laugh riot, then?

 

Do you like Kathie Moffat (Out of the Past), Annie Laurie Starr (Gun Crazy), and Margot Shelby (Decoy)? If you don't, why not?

 

I find all of those femmes fatales to be entertaining because they don't hide their selfish, reckless behavior. We all know they are bad. Cathy is far worse because I think she is good, yet she chooses to kill her love. That's evil, to me. It's like watching Cathy O'Donnell stick a knife in a guy's heart, not Gloria Grahame.

 

When a bad girl does me wrong. That's shame on me. When a good girl does me wrong. That's shame on her. And then you have to wonder to yourself, was she ever a good girl?

 

Wasn't Kings Go Forth like this? And that's a film I really liked. Hmmmmm, it has to be the setting and types of people.

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You have woman issues! :P

 

> Really? I'm tossing Cathy out that window!

 

See! Violence!

 

>

> Yes, I do believe she is somewhat conflicted, hence her hesitation with Edgar. Still, she goes through with it. She always does. I don't respect her at all.

>

 

"Somewhat conflicted?" You are way off. She is SUPER conflicted.

 

> Take the other Cathy, the one in OUT OF THE PAST. Does she ever show any real love for boy? Isn't it all games from the start?

>

> You've got it. She's playing a guy.

>

 

I don't understand. So that's admirable to you?

 

> WORSE. And the reason I say that is because I believe Cathy DOES love Heathcliff and she chooses a LIFESTYLE over him. "Kathie Moffat" doesn't love "Jeff." In my book, this makes Cathy WAY WORSE.

>

 

It does but you always say you love these "way worse" characters! They're at the top of your lists!

 

> The only thing that ruins her is that she has to FACE Heathcliff and her killing their love. If she didn't have to do that, she'd have no problem living out her life. To me, that's heartless.

>

 

I agree, she is heartless at that point. But you love heartless wenches until now.

 

> You know, must I say it again, the character is really fascinating to me because she really does represent an evil woman to me. So talking about this has helped me appreciate the film and story a lot more.

>

 

Goodness, I think you're going to far by saying evil. Weak and short sighted, vain, even and certainly worldly. But evil? I can't believe someone who pretends (Cathie Moffat) is better than someone who blows hot and cold.

 

>

> I know you and Jackie are attempting to free Cathy from any kind of guilt by saying she had zero choice but to abandon Heathcliff for Edgar. If I felt her motivations were purely out of survival, I'd be on your side. I'd feel this was a tragic love story. But the way Cathy carries on with her WANT of that world tells me all I need to know about her. It's not about survival, it's about wanting that world. "Oh, I really didn't want to stay that night but I had no choice because I was starving." I just don't buy it.

>

 

Well that is flat out not true. I do NOT give Cathy any kind of "pass" but I do understand that this was a conflicted woman and a dangerous one. Why on earth did heathcliffe fall for her for goodness sake? Why do you all fall for the crazies? But I digress. :D

 

All I was saying was there is in fact a good reason behind Cathy's not running off with Heathcliffe. I think he was SELFISH to ask her to. That's why it was the missed opportunity, that only happens once, as molor or Jackie pointed out, when Heathcliffe went off to get established and then returned.

 

Do I think Cathy was right to reject him then if she loved him? No, if she loved him she could have pushed him to try again, this time in a more practical way. Neither one of them were very practical it seems. No, that's a bore and seems to quench those passionate fires. Reality. A man MUST work and have something to offer and a woman MUST wait and hope he will. Taht was the reality she faced. Heathcliffe didn't so she was upset and jumped for Edgar. It was heartless, it was mercenary but I also think this is what makes the story kick up a notch. It's so easy to condemn her as Heathcliffe does, but why did he let it happen? Why didn't do the simple thing trillions of men have ever done, go out and get some kind of living together and then go fetch his girl? I don't get why he thought rolling around in the stables was going to be their happily ever after, practical issues be hanged.

 

Bah! They're better off without each other.

 

> Do you like Kathie Moffat (Out of the Past), Annie Laurie Starr (Gun Crazy), and Margot Shelby (Decoy)? If you don't, why not?

>

 

I don't like them but I've said from the beginning I'm not really into femme fatales. YOU are the one who says you are and yet you hate the most fatale femme of all. I think it's because you think women should never expect _anything_ from a man. Take him as he is, even if it means your death. I think that's horrid. Plain horrid and wickedly unfair.

 

> I find all of those femmes fatales to be entertaining because they don't hide their selfish, reckless behavior. We all know they are bad. Cathy is far worse because I think she is good, yet she chooses to kill her love. That's evil, to me. It's like watching Cathy O'Donnell stick a knife in a guy's heart, not Gloria Grahame.

>

 

Are you kidding? most of those chickies LIED like the devil and made their chumps believe they loved them!!! Good grief, what rubbish. What about your Gloria in HUMAN DESIRE? Didn't she hate her life because it was working class, rough and her husband a lug? Isn't that your dream idea of love? But she hates it and wants the first good looking, smart guy to get her out of this and into a better (materially) world and you think it's GREAT and she's so "honest". Ha!!!

 

That movie is called human desire. In french interestingly, it's the "human beast". All I say is Cathy is just that, a deeply flawed human torn by conflicting desires and rather limited in her world. It was the back of beyond! It wasn't even London!

 

> When a bad girl does me wrong. That's shame on me. When a good girl does me wrong. That's shame on her. And then you have to wonder to yourself, was she ever a good girl?

>

 

I agree. But you usually find that fascinating.

 

> Wasn't Kings Go Forth like this? And that's a film I really liked. Hmmmmm, it has to be the setting and types of people.

 

You hated Natalie, too! Dreadful! She was just a naive kid and she NEVER told Sam she loved him for crying out loud.

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You have woman issues! :P

 

Of course I do! I've never been in love! I wonder if it's a good thing. I'm conflicted.

 

Really? I'm tossing Cathy out that window!

 

See! Violence!

 

Yes! That's what this movie needs!

 

"Somewhat conflicted?" You are way off. She is SUPER conflicted.

 

Yeah, but she gets over it pretty darn fast. And I do believe she lets her real love win out. I don't condemn her for that, either. I just have a problem with her putting Heathcliff through all she does when she wants something other than love.

 

I don't understand. So that's admirable to you?

 

No! I don't believe Kathie is a sweet girl but I view Cathy as a sweet girl. I can accept the one wronging me but not the other.

 

It does but you always say you love these "way worse" characters! They're at the top of your lists!

 

If I find what they are doing to be entertaining, yes! What Cathy is doing is very similar to "Laurel Gray." She's killing her love. And I believe these men ARE their loves. That's rotten. Kathie Moffat doesn't love Jeff.

 

I agree, she is heartless at that point. But you love heartless wenches until now.

 

Only if I believe they are heartless from the start!

 

Goodness, I think you're going to far by saying evil. Weak and short sighted, vain, even and certainly worldly. But evil? I can't believe someone who pretends (Cathie Moffat) is better than someone who blows hot and cold.

 

I feel more pain and hurt from a woman that I feel truly loves me and wrongs me than one who never really loved me. Does Cathy love Heathcliff? Does Kathie love Jeff?

 

Well that is flat out not true. I do NOT give Cathy any kind of "pass" but I do understand that this was a conflicted woman and a dangerous one. Why on earth did heathcliffe fall for her for goodness sake? Why do you all fall for the crazies? But I digress. :D

 

:D That's because you crazy ones are irresistible! Heathcliff's love was born in childhood and he clinged to it. You could say his love is that of a boy more so than that of a man. Boyish love is very innocent. I also find it to be the purest. Cathy's love has strings attached. Heathcliff's doesn't.

 

Do I think Cathy was right to reject him then if she loved him? No, if she loved him she could have pushed him to try again, this time in a more practical way. Neither one of them were very practical it seems. No, that's a bore and seems to quench those passionate fires. Reality. A man MUST work and have something to offer and a woman MUST wait and hope he will. Taht was the reality she faced. Heathcliffe didn't so she was upset and jumped for Edgar. It was heartless, it was mercenary but I also think this is what makes the story kick up a notch. It's so easy to condemn her as Heathcliffe does, but why did he let it happen? Why didn't do the simple thing trillions of men have ever done, go out and get some kind of living together and then go fetch his girl? I don't get why he thought rolling around in the stables was going to be their happily ever after, practical issues be hanged.

 

And I think this is where our differences truly lie. I don't believe Cathy wanted to give Heathcliff any kind of chances. She knew Edgar had what she really wanted the most. There is no way she'd ever wait for Heathcliff. Heck, look what happens when Heathcliff leaves her for a moment! She's not loyal to Heathcliff. Not at all. Yet Heathcliff is expected to go SLAVE for her.

 

And what is it that Cathy offers Heathcliff? What is she doing for him? Is she going to cook for him? Clean for him? Raise children? Her? Really? She just wants to sit on a throne. It seems so terribly one-sided.

 

It would be like a guy telling a woman that he loves but he's choosing another woman because she's "hotter." That's pretty darn shallow, if you ask me. How many women would be okay with that and think highly of such a guy?

 

Bah! They're better off without each other.

 

I agree.

 

I don't like them but I've said from the beginning I'm not really into femme fatales. YOU are the one who says you are and yet you hate the most fatale femme of all. I think it's because you think women should never expect anything from a man. Take him as he is, even if it means your death. I think that's horrid. Plain horrid and wickedly unfair.

 

Is a man to take a woman for who they are?

 

Are you kidding? most of those chickies LIED like the devil and made their chumps believe they loved them!!! Good grief, what rubbish.

 

But did they love them? How about Cathy? If someone truly loves you and they stick a knife in your heart, that hurts far more.

 

What about your Gloria in HUMAN DESIRE? Didn't she hate her life because it was working class, rough and her husband a lug? Isn't that your dream idea of love? But she hates it and wants the first good looking, smart guy to get her out of this and into a better (materially) world and you think it's GREAT and she's so "honest". Ha!!!

 

Vicki (Gloria Grahame) settles in marriage. That is on her, to be sure. Then she finds a more interesting guy and decides to cheat. This makes her a really bad person. Of course, her husband starts to treat her horribly and looks to possess her. Still, she was wrong.

 

That movie is called human desire. In french interestingly, it's the "human beast". All I say is Cathy is just that, a deeply flawed human torn by conflicting desires and rather limited in her world. It was the back of beyond! It wasn't even London!

 

I think it's what you said about Austen vs. Bront?. Isn't "Romeo and Juliet" about Juliet saying, "the heck with class, I love Romeo"? It's about love at its purest. Cathy is the opposite of Juliet.

 

I agree. But you usually find that fascinating.

 

I don't like women who say they truly love a guy but then go on to kill that love, knowing they are doing just that, too. That's awful.

 

You hated Natalie, too! Dreadful! She was just a naive kid and she NEVER told Sam she loved him for crying out loud.

 

You're right! I didn't like Monique (Natalie Wood). I don't think she's as bad as Cathy because of what you say: she doesn't profess her love of Sam (Frank Sinatra). Still, I felt she completely used the guy and abused his feelings. But Cathy is worse.

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"She's not loyal to Heathcliff. Not at all. Yet Heathcliff is expected to go SLAVE for her."

 

See, I like the one-way street nature of this.

 

Ahaaha! You've managed to mix two noir babes in this story of unrequited tortured romance in the Moors?? Whoa! That's why you're my Noir Guy!!!

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> Yes! That's what this movie needs!

>

 

I knew it.

 

> Yeah, but she gets over it pretty darn fast. And I do believe she lets her real love win out. I don't condemn her for that, either. I just have a problem with her putting Heathcliff through all she does when she wants something other than love.

>

 

Well, I guess you have identified the characters you don't like and it's amazing you like Max Cady but not Cathy.

 

> No! I don't believe Kathie is a sweet girl but I view Cathy as a sweet girl. I can accept the one wronging me but not the other.

>

 

Why doesn't that make her more interesting?

 

> If I find what they are doing to be entertaining, yes! What Cathy is doing is very similar to "Laurel Gray." She's killing her love. And I believe these men ARE their loves. That's rotten. Kathie Moffat doesn't love Jeff.

>

 

I agree with that, but you love In A Lonely Place! Why don't you love WH?

 

> I agree, she is heartless at that point. But you love heartless wenches until now.

>

> Only if I believe they are heartless from the start!

>

 

Oh, brother, that is really funny. This is truly your "bete noir". Or is it "bete humaine"? :P

 

> I feel more pain and hurt from a woman that I feel truly loves me and wrongs me than one who never really loved me. Does Cathy love Heathcliff? Does Kathie love Jeff?

>

 

But this is a movie and I'm wondering why you don't admire WH more for creating more turmoil? Isn't that what you say you love in movies, that they provoke these responses from you? I'm the one who admits I don't always like that and avoid it.

 

> :D That's because you crazy ones are irresistible! Heathcliff's love was born in childhood and he clinged to it. You could say his love is that of a boy more so than that of a man. Boyish love is very innocent. I also find it to be the purest. Cathy's love has strings attached. Heathcliff's doesn't.

>

 

I am NOT crazy. Except to be belaboring this topic.

 

And I agree about the purity of first love. And yes, Cathy is all conflicted but you're the one who always says you love these flawed, tragic characters.

 

So, tell me, why don't you hate Martha Edwards? Didn't she do the exact same thing Cathy did?

 

>

> And I think this is where our differences truly lie. I don't believe Cathy wanted to give Heathcliff any kind of chances. She knew Edgar had what she really wanted the most. There is no way she'd ever wait for Heathcliff. Heck, look what happens when Heathcliff leaves her for a moment! She's not loyal to Heathcliff. Not at all. Yet Heathcliff is expected to go SLAVE for her.

>

 

I actually suspect that she would not have waited, either. She was that easily tempted. But I still don't think that means she didn't also love Heathcliffe. It's NOT a pure love, though, not like Heathcliffe's. I said at the start he was the pure one, remember?

 

> And what is it that Cathy offers Heathcliff? What is she doing for him? Is she going to cook for him? Clean for him? Raise children? Her? Really? She just wants to sit on a throne. It seems so terribly one-sided.

>

 

If she wouldn't do those things, she would be wrong, yes.

 

> It would be like a guy telling a woman that he loves but he's choosing another woman because she's "hotter." That's pretty darn shallow, if you ask me. How many women would be okay with that and think highly of such a guy?

>

 

I agree! The problem is YOU'RE the one always listing these "Kitty March's" and such ones in your favorite character lists but you hate Cathy for being the same way!

 

> Is a man to take a woman for who they are?

>

 

Not if she's crazy! That's why I said, y'all love to suffer.

 

> But did they love them? How about Cathy? If someone truly loves you and they stick a knife in your heart, that hurts far more.

>

 

Then those men should fall in love with the Isabelle Lyttons of the world, not the Cathy/Kathie/Laurels, etc. That's where we get these stories. Some you like, this one you don't. It just seems so contradictory on your part.

 

> Vicki (Gloria Grahame) settles in marriage. That is on her, to be sure. Then she finds a more interesting guy and decides to cheat. This makes her a really bad person. Of course, her husband starts to treat her horribly and looks to possess her. Still, she was wrong.

>

 

Boy, you sure sound like you're soft-pedalling Vicki while you use words like "evil" to describe Cathy. Hmmmmm.....what about that poor lug, her husband, who she led to believe she loved him?

 

 

> I think it's what you said about Austen vs. Bront?. Isn't "Romeo and Juliet" about Juliet saying, "the heck with class, I love Romeo"? It's about love at its purest. Cathy is the opposite of Juliet.

>

 

Definitely. Emily Bronte wrote about her view of undistilled passions, intense emotions and what happens when they are in conflict with weaker desires, baser natures and worldliness.

 

> I don't like women who say they truly love a guy but then go on to kill that love, knowing they are doing just that, too. That's awful.

>

 

Why is that so "awful" but a sadistic killer like Max Cady is "Hilarious" to you?! Boy, could a shrink make a fortune here...

 

> You're right! I didn't like Monique (Natalie Wood). I don't think she's as bad as Cathy because of what you say: she doesn't profess her love of Sam (Frank Sinatra). Still, I felt she completely used the guy and abused his feelings. But Cathy is worse.

 

How on earth did Monique "Use" Sam for goodness sake???? She told him the truth and it was his choice to keep coming back. Boy, you are HARSH.

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Howdy, Cowboy Chris -- It's a good thing. I promise.

 

I think I've had such a strong reaction to Cathy because I'm a hopeless romantic. I want to see all the good there is in woman and love. I'm terribly naive. I would be the "Heathcliff." I'm extremely vulnerable to being treated as he ends up being treated.

 

(Great discussion.)

 

I'm getting smoked! But that's okay. :D

 

Ciao, Lively Gal -- "She's not loyal to Heathcliff. Not at all. Yet Heathcliff is expected to go SLAVE for her."

 

See, I like the one-way street nature of this.

 

:D

 

Ahaaha! You've managed to mix two noir babes in this story of unrequited tortured romance in the Moors?? Whoa! That's why you're my Noir Guy!!!

 

Awwww, thank you. But I can't take credit for that. Miss Whosits and Denver were the ones who have correctly compared Cathy to a femme fatale. They are right.

 

Do you see the difference I'm speaking of between a "Kathie Moffat" and a "Cathy"? Are they not two different kinds of woman? Hey, maybe they're not. Maybe they are one in the same. They want what they want. I just have a bigger problem with the one who seems to be honest about her love. Those types can wreck you.

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You know it occurs to me it may just be a male/female thing. I don't judge Catherine Ernshaw that harshly, nor for that matter Martha Edwards, Angharad Morgan, or even Hallie Stoddard...they all married the man who would provide them with a home that was more comfortable, a secure future. I don't say they married for love (though Hallie did believe she was in love with Ranse), they married for at best, mixed reasons but they are at least understandable reasons to me. That doesn't make me hate them. I still resent Edgar Lytton (and Ranse Stoddard, though not as much as Edgar) and the Hindleys or even the Aaron Edwards of the stories more than the Catherines.

 

So in my case at least, it's my feminine perspective. Maybe it's that way for Jackie, too, I don't know. You, Grimes, are seeing it from a man's perspective and one that hasn't lived with a woman and had your views tempered by that experience. You admit to being a "romantic" like Heathcliffe, I think you're right, but Heathcliffe and you both don't really know women and seem to hold them to unrealistic standards. What happened to women being the ones with "lists" (expectations)?

 

Chris, what say you? Don't be afraid! :D Molo seems to have made a fine balance and came away appreciating the movie BECAUSE of its conflicts, which is what I thought real "noir guys" would do. :P

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Oh, no. I think we're actually getting close to an understanding, Cathy. :P

 

Well, I guess you have identified the characters you don't like and it's amazing you like Max Cady but not Cathy.

 

Because he taunts and teases! If Cathy was doing that, I'd probably love her.

 

No! I don't believe Kathie is a sweet girl but I view Cathy as a sweet girl. I can accept the one wronging me but not the other.

 

Why doesn't that make her more interesting?

 

Because it's being played straight. I don't believe Cathy is meant to be viewed as a femme fatale. Butterscotch is right about that. But I view her as that. I believe she's one of the worst. But since she's played to be some sort of "innocent," I just don't enjoy her.

 

I agree with that, but you love In A Lonely Place! Why don't you love WH?

 

I believe it's the kind of film. I don't like the setting and characters. It's Olivier, not Bogart. It's Oberon, not Grahame. It's too British pomp. I'm basically saying I'm a snob.

 

But this is a movie and I'm wondering why you don't admire WH more for creating more turmoil? Isn't that what you say you love in movies, that they provoke these responses from you? I'm the one who admits I don't always like that and avoid it.

 

And all of this discussion has helped me to realize that the film has great merit to me because it makes me feel like this. It's rare that I ever have such a visceral response to a film. You actually predicted I'd hate Cathy. So you must have known something about the character and me.

 

I am NOT crazy.

 

Ha!

 

And I agree about the purity of first love. And yes, Cathy is all conflicted but you're the one who always says you love these flawed, tragic characters.

 

I do, actually. If Heathcliff hadn't become what he became, I'd probably love the guy. He would have been Doniphon.

 

So, tell me, why don't you hate Martha Edwards? Didn't she do the exact same thing Cathy did?

 

I really don't know what Martha and Ethan were like. I can only speculate. If Ethan was always away, not showing his love for her, I'd understand Martha's decision. If Ethan was around, professing his love for her and she still chose Aaron, I'd dislike her. She would be a turncoat, for sure. Laurie and Marty are a better example, since we see how their relationship evolves. Laurie loves Marty but she was on the verge of marrying Charlie. But if Marty acted like Heathcliff with his love for Laurie, do you think she'd ever consider marrying another guy? She felt Marty didn't love her like she loved him. She felt Marty cared more about finding Debbie.

 

I actually suspect that she would not have waited, either. She was that easily tempted. But I still don't think that means she didn't also love Heathcliffe. It's NOT a pure love, though, not like Heathcliffe's. I said at the start he was the pure one, remember?

 

We agree! We agree! Sigh. Heathcliff truly loved Cathy. Cathy loved Heathcliff more than any other man but she loved a WORLD more than him. I don't mind that she loved a world or money more than him, just don't come selling me that love mess with her. Her love doesn't count, at that point. She's made her choice. And she wasn't forced into that decision. She chose it. She chose it very early on.

 

I agree! The problem is YOU'RE the one always listing these "Kitty March's" and such ones in your favorite character lists but you hate Cathy for being the same way!

 

That's because Kitty is taunting and teasing! We KNOW she's horrible! We, the audience, are in on the joke from the start. In Wuthering Heights, I'm led to believe Cathy loves Heathcliff as much as he loves her. I got my heart ripped out by this superficial woman!

 

So is there a film noir that is done in the same vein? In a Lonely Place is one that comes close to me, but even with that one, Laurel's actions are done out of mistrust and fear. I understand that. What are Cathy's motivations for sticking a knife in Heathcliff's heart? Is it that she either goes with Edgar or becomes a prostitute? Really? Do you honestly believe that? That's her motivation?

 

Not if she's crazy! That's why I said, y'all love to suffer.

 

If we choose a Cathy!

 

Then those men should fall in love with the Isabelle Lyttons of the world, not the Cathy/Kathie/Laurels, etc. That's where we get these stories. Some you like, this one you don't. It just seems so contradictory on your part.

 

Heathcliff fell for Cathy when they were kids! He believed she was true! Whoops!

 

Boy, you sure sound like you're soft-pedalling Vicki while you use words like "evil" to describe Cathy. Hmmmmm.....what about that poor lug, her husband, who she led to believe she loved him?

 

Vicki didn't truly love Carl (Broderick Crawford). He's the "Edgar" of that story. Vicki didn't have a true love. She just felt trapped by her own doing. She settled. She didn't choose one over the other, though.

 

Definitely. Emily Bronte wrote about her view of undistilled passions, intense emotions and what happens when they are in conflict with weaker desires, baser natures and worldliness.

 

I guess I'm an "Emily Bront?" guy, then. If love isn't at the top, what do you really have? What are you holding?

 

Why is that so "awful" but a sadistic killer like Max Cady is "Hilarious" to you?! Boy, could a shrink make a fortune here...

 

He teases and taunts! "Is that so, Toddy?!" If Cathy would laugh at Heathcliff, I'd probably like her. Then I'd know she was looking to hurt Heathcliff. Instead, we get "I love you." Yeah, right! You have a funny way of showing it!

 

How on earth did Monique "Use" Sam for goodness sake???? She told him the truth and it was his choice to keep coming back. Boy, you are HARSH.

 

I'd have to watch when they first met, again. I got the impression she used him.

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> Because it's being played straight. I don't believe Cathy is meant to be viewed as a femme fatale. Butterscotch is right about that. But I view her as that. I believe she's one of the worst. But since she's played to be some sort of "innocent," I just don't enjoy her.

>

 

She is not being portrayed as an "innocent", she's being portrayed for exactly what you see, a conflicted woman. We're not being told to ADMIRE her for goodness sake. Yet you admire Kathie Moffat. That makes no sense to me.

 

> I believe it's the kind of film. I don't like the setting and characters. It's Olivier, not Bogart. It's Oberon, not Grahame. It's too British pomp. I'm basically saying I'm a snob.

>

 

That makes sense.

 

> I do, actually. If Heathcliff hadn't become what he became, I'd probably love the guy. He would have been Doniphon.

>

 

I still don't see how he changed who he was just by making money. That baffles me. If he joined the society there and tried to be one of them, then that would be different. Then I'd see he changed. But just acquiring a fortune, by his own hands, hardly changes the man. Oh, or do you mean he is now a man and not a boy? :P

 

> I really don't know what Martha and Ethan were like. I can only speculate. If Ethan was always away, not showing his love for her, I'd understand Martha's decision. If Ethan was around, professing his love for her and she still chose Aaron, I'd dislike her. She would be a turncoat, for sure. Laurie and Marty are a better example, since we see how their relationship evolves. Laurie loves Marty but she was on the verge of marrying Charlie. But if Marty acted like Heathcliff with his love for Laurie, do you think she'd ever consider marrying another guy? She felt Marty didn't love her like she loved him. She felt Marty cared more about finding Debbie.

>

 

But the bottom line is love. Ethan loved Martha, Martha married someone else. You're backpedalling and qualifying things.

 

> We agree! We agree! Sigh. Heathcliff truly loved Cathy. Cathy loved Heathcliff more than any other man but she loved a WORLD more than him. I don't mind that she loved a world or money more than him, just don't come selling me that love mess with her. Her love doesn't count, at that point. She's made her choice. And she wasn't forced into that decision. She chose it. She chose it very early on.

>

 

I don't think she ever was honest with herself.

 

> That's because Kitty is taunting and teasing! We KNOW she's horrible! We, the audience, are in on the joke from the start. In Wuthering Heights, I'm led to believe Cathy loves Heathcliff as much as he loves her. I got my heart ripped out by this superficial woman!

>

 

But she DOES love Heathcliffe, just not as much as he does. That makes for a more "noir" character, doesn't it?

 

> So is there a film noir that is done in the same vein? In a Lonely Place is one that comes close to me, but even with that one, Laurel's actions are done out of mistrust and fear. I understand that. What are Cathy's motivations for sticking a knife in Heathcliff's heart? Is it that she either goes with Edgar or becomes a prostitute? Really? Do you honestly believe that? That's her motivation?

>

 

I meant if she and Heathcliffe ran away TOGETHER. You keep ignoring the fact that he could have gone on his own and done something and then sent for her or come and got her.

 

> Not if she's crazy! That's why I said, y'all love to suffer.

>

> If we choose a Cathy!

>

 

You often do!

 

> Vicki didn't truly love Carl (Broderick Crawford). He's the "Edgar" of that story. Vicki didn't have a true love. She just felt trapped by her own doing. She settled. She didn't choose one over the other, though.

>

 

And you don't think this makes her WORSE than Cathy? At least Cathy didn't leave her husband!

 

> I guess I'm an "Emily Bront?" guy, then. If love isn't at the top, what do you really have? What are you holding?

>

 

That's right, too bad Heathcliffe didn't love her enough to do more for her. His love is mostly about feelings and words, not DEEDS.

 

> He teases and taunts! "Is that so, Toddy?!" If Cathy would laugh at Heathcliff, I'd probably like her. Then I'd know she was looking to hurt Heathcliff. Instead, we get "I love you." Yeah, right! You have a funny way of showing it!

>

 

So did Heathcliffe! Will you tell me what exactly he did for her?

 

> I'd have to watch when they first met, again. I got the impression she used him.

 

She would not know how to use him or any man, she was a complete innocent.

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You know it occurs to me it may just be a male/female thing. I don't judge Catherine Ernshaw that harshly, nor for that matter Martha Edwards, Angharad Morgan, or even Hallie Stoddard...they all married the man who would provide them with a home that was more comfortable, a secure future. I don't say they married for love (though Hallie did believe she was in love with Ranse), they married for at best, mixed reasons but they are at least understandable reasons to me. That doesn't make me hate them. I still resent Edgar Lytton (and Ranse Stoddard, though not as much as Edgar) and the Hindleys or even the Aaron Edwards of the stories more than the Catherines.

 

I'm all right with all of that, just don't come selling me the true love stuff, then. That's all. If you're going to choose lifestyle over love, then say it. And if you have children, teach them that.

 

You, Grimes, are seeing it from a man's perspective and one that hasn't lived with a woman and had your views tempered by that experience.

 

It's that bad?

 

You admit to being a "romantic" like Heathcliffe, I think you're right, but Heathcliffe and you both don't really know women and seem to hold them to unrealistic standards. What happened to women being the ones with "lists" (expectations)?

 

I'll settle for love. But I'm pretty sure I won't find it. I won't allow it.

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