RAMBLES Part II

[MissGoddess]

> I'm all right with all of that, just don't come selling me the true love stuff, then. That's all. If you're going to choose lifestyle over love, then say it.

>

 

Hello, those movies all DO say it was TRUE LOVE between them. So?

 

> You, Grimes, are seeing it from a man's perspective and one that hasn't lived with a woman and had your views tempered by that experience.

>

> It's that bad?

>

 

Did I say it was?

 

> You admit to being a "romantic" like Heathcliffe, I think you're right, but Heathcliffe and you both don't really know women and seem to hold them to unrealistic standards. What happened to women being the ones with "lists" (expectations)?

>

> I'll settle for love. But I'm pretty sure I won't find it. I won't allow it.

 

That's not an answer to my question.

[movieman1957]

I'm not really in a position to comment on the movie as it has been some time since I have seen it. Your comments about the women and why they married did remind me of something I saw this morning. While watching a bit of "Remains Of The Day" Emma Thompson has threatened to leave her job over the firing of two Jewish girls. When confronted about her leaving she concedes that, in her words, she is a coward. She has no family and no place to go.

 

Could it be that these women, save for Hallie, marry as a security measure more than love? Possibly. I wonder if the men might not see it as a matter of security and really imagine it as a real love. Taken in the context of the time these movies are set that would seem to be a very legitimate reason for the women, at least in their minds. Could it be the only thing worse than marrying the wrong man is being not married at all?

 

I think men want a woman that is smart, can handle things and meets them on a level where they are interested in the same things and if not would be willing to learn. (Maybe women want the same.)

 

From a personal standing I love being married. I can't imagine not being so. Knowing myself I often wonder why my bride has stayed with me all these years but am so glad she is still here. I certainly don't think she had a list. I can't imagine what factors I meet. I certainly didn't offer her a great lifestyle but I treated her right. I treat her with love and respect.

 

On some level there has to be more than love.

 

I'm not really sure if that really answers your questions. If not maybe I can have another chance.

 

Edited by: movieman1957 on Sep 12, 2010 3:50 PM

[FrankGrimes]

She is not being portrayed as an "innocent", she's being portrayed for exactly what you see, a conflicted woman. We're not being told to ADMIRE her for goodness sake.

 

So she's not an "innocent"? Then I agree with that. The way the film ends, I thought it suggested that we were to feel sorry for her.

 

Yet you admire Kathie Moffat. That makes no sense to me.

 

I don't admire her! She's purely entertaining, to me. That's all.

 

I still don't see how he changed who he was just by making money. That baffles me. If he joined the society there and tried to be one of them, then that would be different. Then I'd see he changed. But just acquiring a fortune, by his own hands, hardly changes the man. Oh, or do you mean he is now a man and not a boy?

 

So what's with the great danes? Does this not suggest he has become what he once spit on? He was no longer himself? Do you think it was his desire to become what he became? He's living in Cathy's dream, not his. His dream had Cathy with him... in any place. They could be living in a shack and he would be happy. Why is it that he could be happy in such a world but she cannot? Is that a man/woman thing?

 

But the bottom line is love. Ethan loved Martha, Martha married someone else. You're backpedalling and qualifying things.

 

But if Ethan is off, doing his own thing and not paying any attention to Martha, I can see why she'd move on. That's taking a person's love for you for granted. Now if Ethan was working on the farm and showering her with love and attention and she still left him for his brother, that's shallow. I just don't know how their relationship was. It's a hard one for me to figure out. Marty and Laurie are shown. And Ethan seems to suggest that Marty and Laurie were similar to he and Martha and that he regrets not "settling down."

 

I don't think she ever was honest with herself.

 

I love that comment! Now THAT'S something I can understand. But are you sure she didn't want what she ended up with? Ultimately, she wanted Heathcliff in that world. When she figures out, VERY EARLY ON, that she cannot have both, she decides on the world over love. I'm okay with that, but I do find it shallow. And if this is Emily Bront?'s commentary on how love is often shoved aside in the name of other things, I'm with her. You just can't go around talking about love, pure, true love, and then turn right around and place it beneath other things. I guess this really is about a list. What ranks first? Are there strings attached?

 

But she DOES love Heathcliffe, just not as much as he does. That makes for a more "noir" character, doesn't it?

 

Yes. Film noir love is usually very one-sided. It's usually the guy getting the short end of the stick.

 

I meant if she and Heathcliffe ran away TOGETHER. You keep ignoring the fact that he could have gone on his own and done something and then sent for her or come and got her.

 

No, he couldn't! She IMMEDIATELY jumps in the arms of Edgar when Heathcliff disappears. And I highly doubt she'd follow him anywhere unless he told her he's a king. She should have believed Heathcliff was a king to her no matter what his stake in life. But she didn't believe that. Heathcliff always believed she was a queen, his queen. She wasn't his slave, as she says. He was her slave.

 

And you don't think this makes her WORSE than Cathy? At least Cathy didn't leave her husband!

 

You're right about that. Vicki is an adulterer. Cathy only cheats in her heart. But I find Cathy's treatment of Heathcliff to be worse.

 

That's right, too bad Heathcliffe didn't love her enough to do more for her. His love is mostly about feelings and words, not DEEDS.

 

And what are her deeds for him? Tell him to go get rich while she loves up on Edgar? Very supportive. She needed to go with him... anywhere. I don't care if they scrape and claw. They should do it together. If their love is true, it would make it stronger. I don't think it's right that a guy is asked to do all the sacrificing.

 

So did Heathcliffe! Will you tell me what exactly he did for her?

 

He's completely devoted to her. That's a pretty good start. Now what does she do for him in return?

 

She would not know how to use him or any man, she was a complete innocent.

 

She bothered me for some reason. I'll have to check it out, again. And I do find it fascinating that Natalie Wood plays such a character because I find her to be quite lovely.

[CineMaven]

"Do you see the difference I'm speaking of between a 'Kathie Moffat' and a 'Cathy'? Are they not two different kinds of woman? Hey, maybe they're not. Maybe they are one in the same. They want what they want. I just have a bigger problem with the one who seems to be honest about her love. Those types can wreck you." - < ( FRANK GRIMES ) >

 

On the surface of it, Kathie and Cathy seem to be two different types. But honestly, I haven't seen "Wuthering Heights" in a good little while. That's a movie I really have to be in the mood for.

 

Good luck in your discussion.

[rohanaka]

Hellooooooooooo Moloooooooooooooo!!!!

 

BOY oh boy oh boy!! I turn my back for one night and when I come back LOOK at all the fun I have missed, ha. (Miss G and Jackie are HOLDING that Grey Guy's feet to the fire.. I don't even need to bring my ROPE! ha)

 

And Mr. Mad Hat.. I want to thank you for getting into the fray as well.

 

Okay let me set the scene for you

 

I LOVED your story about your "late night" movie moment out on the sun porch. ha. (WHERE was the snake this time???) Oh wait.. he was on the tv... that lousy HEATHCLIFF!! ha.

 

(sit down, Miss G.. I am only kidding!! HA!!! )

 

Rohanaka writes: (I have to paraphrase because I can not find your quote anymore) "I hate both characters". (is that about right?)

 

Close enough.. ha. I don't know if 'hate" is the right word or not.. I certainly found very little to LIKE in them and even less to love.. I know for SURE you could say that I was DISGUSTED with them.. OH they just made me so mad.. ha. (but I was mad at them for their own good.. because I DID want for them both to end up happy.. mushy romance kinda gal that I am.. ha)

 

I think so far (based on what I read from your post) you and I are coming down pretty close to the same idea on most of the story... but I want to watch it again (because it has been a while) I am waiting... not TOO patiently for the library to come through for me)

 

And again I want to refresh my memory before I say too much more... especially now because the discussion on Cathy is REALLY intriguing me.. and to be very truthful.. my memory for Heathcliff's character (and who he was) is much better than my memory for her.. so I will have to see if I can get this watched (soon I hope) and then will maybe be able to comment more...

 

But PS: I have to ask this.. ha... because I am starting to take it PERSONALLY. HA!!

 

WHY do all these "troubled" women (who go around making trouble for everyone else too) have variations on the name KATHY?????????? ha. How come they are not named something like "Eloise" or "Mathilde" or "Gertrude" or SOMETHING???? ha. (I am probably going to have to turn in my "Kathy" membership if this much "upset" and "drama" all the time is a pre-requisite for my name.. ha. I am WAY too boring to keep up with the likes of THESE gals. ha.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Sep 12, 2010 5:19 PM

[rohanaka]

When confronted about her leaving she concedes that, in her words, she is a coward. She has no family and no place to go

 

Could it be that these women, save for Hallie, marry as a security measure more than love? Possibly.

 

Mr. Moviman... between you and Miss G, you have both hit on what I have been remembering of my impression for at least some of Cathy's actions.. so I will hint at where I will most likely be leaning when I do finally get a chance to watch again.. as this is the comment I have been holding back until I watched again as was I wondering if most of her trouble was the "lack of courage" in the face of the few options she had open.

[MissGoddess]

I appreciate your answers, Chris. That sounds about right.

 

*On some level there has to be more than love.*

 

I think love prompts you to do the things necessary to

make the other person happy, insofar as you can. It does

not look out for its own interests only, right? Cathy didn't really

know the meaning of that. Heathcliffe knew it more than she,

I think.

 

If you ever get to watch WH again, let us know what you thought

of it all.

[molo14]

Hi Frank,

 

*Cathy, I mean, Miss G was completely right about how I'd react to this film. She knew I'd hate Cathy. If I ever want to get upset at woman, this is the film I'd watch. And, you know, in this regard, the film is absolutely brilliant. But I never want to get to a point where I hate woman. I don't want to end up like Heathcliff.*

 

Oh that will never happen Frank. Not with your easy charm. Just look at all the admiration and affection you've earned from the ladies of this forum!

 

*But I like some of them! I'm the one who likes An Affair to Remember! I also like Now, Voyager!*

 

Oh that's right. *Now Voyager* is probably my favorite of this genre. I guess *Wuthering Heights* is considered more Gothic though.

 

*I only did that because of what Robert Osborne said about some critics preferring Wuthering Heights to Gone with the Wind in 1939. I find the latter to be far more engrossing.*

 

*It is a much darker story, this is true. It probably is more my speed but I think had a visceral response to it. Scarlett is pretty much a spoiled child. All of her actions are so doggone childish and selfish. She never really disguises it. Cathy upsets me because she's the kind of woman I just don't like. She'll talk to you about love and tell you how important it is to her and then dump you for something that sparkles. She's a phony.*

 

I guess I find GWTW more entertaining. They are very different stories. Cathy's world is far more regimented and she doesn't really evolve the way Scarlet does. Scarlet goes through the epic hell of war and it's aftermath while Cathy's hell is more cloistered.

 

She really is like a damsel in need of a knight. I'm still conflicted about her. Heathcliff couldn't be what she wanted but in that conversation with Ellen, in which Heathcliff only hears part of it, she does seem to come to some sort of epiphany. The whole I AM Heathcliff realization. However you interpret it, she pursues him when he flees but it is too late. What if she had caught him?

 

I do like the darker psychology of WH. I like Heathcliff's fall into obsessive bitterness and Cathy's mixed up emotions. I don't think she realized the tempest she stirred in Heathcliff and it disturbed her and I suppose frightened her. Still, in the end there he was beside her and it was all she wanted, to be scolded one last time for her choices and look out on the moors of her fantasies.

 

Your reaction to her is interesting. It reminds me in a way of our discussion of *In A Lonely Place*. How does Cathy compare to Laurel Gray?

 

*I think my disgust stems from I'd never personally fall for a "Scarlett" but I would fall for a "Cathy." I would trust Cathy.*

 

I actually can understand that.

 

*Heathcliff isn't interested in leading such a life. He spits on such people who make up such a world, mainly for how they have treated him.*

 

Yes mainly for how they treated him. Heathcliff is as much involved in fantasies as Kathy out on those moors. In reality I don't think he knew what he wanted. Only that he wanted to run away with her.

 

*But, instead of staying true to himself, he ends up joining such a world. And there he sits in misery with his great danes.*

 

It is not until he overhears that partial conversation with Ellen that his life seems to be given a purpose. One of "I'll show them", revenge and hurting and destroying those who he sees have wronged him. In this, as is seen with Isabella, he is absolutely ruthless. I don't think he had a disdain so much for wealth and status as he hated the power those people held over him.

 

*Could he have enjoyed such a world with Cathy? Probably. But he would have enjoyed any world so long as he was with Cathy.*

 

Yes but he might just have easily have desired to lord it over those who he felt had wronged them by coming back and taking Wuthering Heights from Hindley with Cathy at his side. He just would have been a lot happier in doing so.

 

I guess I feel you are projecting a natural noblility to Heathcliff, when he does nothing but vow revenge on just about everyone throughout the movie. Even as a boy against Hindley. So I find it only natural that he would eventually seek to carry that out. It's just that Kathy gets thrown in there too, as his chief target.

 

*His love is true. Cathy's love is false. I believe Cathy only loved that Heathcliff loved her. And she used that against him.*

 

I thought Cathy certainly didn't seem to love Heathcliff quite as much as he loved her. I wouldn't say her love was false though. I don't think she understood her own feelings. Yes I'll say it again: conflicted. Heathcliff didn't really challenge her either. If he has said Kathy, I'm leaving and I'm never coming back that would have forced her hand. Instead he stays on and when he does leave, it is under a misunderstanding. Again, what if Cathy had caught up to him that night?

 

*So, if I'm reading Emily Bront? correctly, she's making a commentary on how young girls dream of a world more so than a love. They'd rather have the "world" than the "love." I'm on the "dream of a love" side of the coin. I could care less about the world. In fact, I prefer you keep your world.*

 

*Jackie is very correct when she says I'm "Heathcliff." Although, I may be more like "Larry Darrell." Well, minus the spirituality.*

 

I think you're more "Heathcliff" than Heathcliff!

 

You're just a hopeless romantic Frank. Why can't the girls around here understand that?

 

*I don't like this lass. As I say, I believe she represents the worst of woman. She's not one to commit to love for it just doesn't interest her enough. It's not good enough.*

 

Oh yeah. This is why.

 

I am all messed up over my "complicated" feelings toward Cathy. I agree with you some and Miss G some. I will keep reading everyone's comments and see if I can figure it out.

 

Edited by: molo14 on Sep 13, 2010 12:56 AM because I misspelled Laurel Gray, and I can't abide that.

 

Edited by: molo14 on Sep 13, 2010 12:58 AM I did it again!!!!!

[SansFin]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> Could it be that these women, save for Hallie, marry as a security measure more than love?

 

I do not think those women married for security more than for love. That those men represented security made it easier for women to fall in love with them. It is like: "Lorelei Lee: Don't you know that a man being rich is like a girl being pretty? You wouldn't marry a girl just because she's pretty, but my goodness, doesn't it help?"

[molo14]

Hi Kat...I mean Ro,

 

*Close enough.. ha. I don't know if 'hate" is the right word or not.. I certainly found very little to LIKE in them and even less to love.. I know for SURE you could say that I was DISGUSTED with them.. OH they just made me so mad.. ha. (but I was mad at them for their own good.. because I DID want for them both to end up happy.. mushy romance kinda gal that I am.. ha)*

 

Yeah, I didn't care for them as people so much but I did like them as characters. I wasn't repelled by them, which can sometimes happen when I'm watching a film. I did feel sorry for them in the end.

 

 

*I think so far (based on what I read from your post) you and I are coming down pretty close to the same idea on most of the story... but I want to watch it again (because it has been a while) I am waiting... not TOO patiently for the library to come through for me)*

 

I can't wait to hear your thoughts after you get a fresh viewing! I was surprised by how much I liked the story. It was nicely photographed as well.

 

*But PS: I have to ask this.. ha... because I am starting to take it PERSONALLY. HA!! *

 

*WHY do all these "troubled" women (who go around making trouble for everyone else too) have variations on the name KATHY?????????? ha. How come they are not named something like "Eloise" or "Mathilde" or "Gertrude" or SOMETHING???? ha. (I am probably going to have to turn in my "Kathy" membership if this much "upset" and "drama" all the time is a pre-requisite for my name.. ha. I am WAY too boring to keep up with the likes of THESE gals. ha.*

 

It's been my personal experience that gals named Kathy are nothing but trouble!

 

HA! I'm just kidding!

 

Only most of them!

[rohanaka]

Only most of them!

 

Oh Molo.... and I thought you were my friend.. HA!!!! I can see I have my work cut out for me now. I guess I will have to go stock up on more supplies. (It is going to be a LOVELY season for rope freezing this year)

 

[molo14]

Wow, what an informative video presentation!!

 

I was just kiddin' !

 

No need to stock up on rope just on my account!

[rohanaka]

Sure... you say that NOW.

[FrankGrimes]

I thought everyone who has read my words against Cathy may find the following to be rather amusing: I don't hate her now. I just re-watched Wuthering Heights and I saw her hurt. I guess I was blinded to this the first time because I was so upset at her pushing aside Heathcliff's love for "silver buckles." I couldn't believe she could do such a thing, so easily. But during this viewing, I saw how she hated herself for hurting Heathcliff, for actually thinking so lowly of him and for choosing a world over his love. Her going to Peniston Crag during a storm does speak to her hating what she's done to Heathcliff.

 

So, I'm definitely wrong about Cathy not being conflicted. She was. And this makes my hate of her to be unwarranted. And I really cannot blame her for wanting to have a world.

 

And I even liked the film in this second viewing.

 

So how's that for a quick turnaround and admittance of being wrong?

 

Cathy: He's dirty.

Cathy's father: Oh no, don't make me ashamed of you, Cathy.

 

Heathcliff: Cathy, you're not thinking of that other world, now?

 

Cathy: My mood changes indoors.... interesting.

 

Heathcliff: Who turns you into a vain, cheap, worldly fool? Linton does! You'll never love him, but you let yourself be loved because it pleases your stupid, greedy vanity. Loved by that milksop with buckles on his shoes...

 

Cathy: I was a queen there, once. - A wonderful line.

 

She really is like a damsel in need of a knight.

 

I still believe Cathy demands a certain kind of knight more so than is in need of one, for she had one.

 

I'm still conflicted about her. Heathcliff couldn't be what she wanted but in that conversation with Ellen, in which Heathcliff only hears part of it, she does seem to come to some sort of epiphany. The whole I AM Heathcliff realization. However you interpret it, she pursues him when he flees but it is too late. What if she had caught him?

 

And this is actually where I stopped hating Cathy. When she chases after him in the storm and cries because she hurt him, drove him away. I still doubt her sticking with Heathcliff, but I at least see the conflict. Jackie and Miss Whosits are right, and I'm wrong.

 

I do like the darker psychology of WH. I like Heathcliff's fall into obsessive bitterness and Cathy's mixed up emotions. I don't think she realized the tempest she stirred in Heathcliff and it disturbed her and I suppose frightened her. Still, in the end there he was beside her and it was all she wanted, to be scolded one last time for her choices and look out on the moors of her fantasies.

 

You're right. I believe she longs for that simple time, one of a childish love and dreams.

 

Your reaction to her is interesting. It reminds me in a way of our discussion of In A Lonely Place. How does Cathy compare to Laurel Gray?

 

It's just similar in that I think each kills their love and regrets doing it. They have their reasons.

 

Yes mainly for how they treated him. Heathcliff is as much involved in fantasies as Kathy out on those moors. In reality I don't think he knew what he wanted. Only that he wanted to run away with her.

 

I agree with you.

 

Cathy: You can come back to me rich and take me away!

 

Heathcliff: Cathy, come with me now.

 

Cathy: Where?

 

Heathcliff: Anywhere!

 

Cathy: And live in haystacks? And steal our food from the market places? No, Heathcliff, that's not what I want.

 

Heathcliff: You want to send me off. That won't do. I've stayed here and been beaten like a dog. Abused and cursed and driven mad! But I stayed, just to be near you. Even as a dog! And I'll stay to the end! I'll live and I'll die under this rock!

 

What's interesting is that Cathy hears music and she stops looking at Heathcliff while he's saying those impassioned words to her.

 

Cathy: Do you hear? Music! The Lintons are giving a party. That's what I want! Dancing and singing in a pretty world. And I'm going to have it!

 

It is not until he overhears that partial conversation with Ellen that his life seems to be given a purpose. One of "I'll show them", revenge and hurting and destroying those who he sees have wronged him. In this, as is seen with Isabella, he is absolutely ruthless. I don't think he had a disdain so much for wealth and status as he hated the power those people held over him.

 

Heathcliff's want to become a success is driven by his want of revenge. That's for sure. But I still contend he doesn't care for the world he enters. It's the same as Cathy's saying she wanted to be an angel in heaven but felt she didn't belong and that she sobbed in joy when she was rejected.

 

Heathcliff really doesn't acknowledge Cathy when she says the following while peering through the Lintons' window:

 

Cathy: Isn't it wonderful? Isn't she beautiful? That's the kind of dress I'll wear. And you'll have a red overcoat and silver buckles on your shoes. Oh, Heathcliff. Will we? Will we ever?

 

I don't think he really wanted any of that. He really showed disdain for such a world whenever he "scolded" Cathy.

 

I guess I feel you are projecting a natural noblility to Heathcliff, when he does nothing but vow revenge on just about everyone throughout the movie. Even as a boy against Hindley. So I find it only natural that he would eventually seek to carry that out. It's just that Kathy gets thrown in there too, as his chief target.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. Heathcliff was one who was looking for paybacks and Cathy was part of his horrible plan. That makes him ugly. I can't blame him because of how everyone treated him, particularly Cathy. She really did wreck the guy.

 

I thought Cathy certainly didn't seem to love Heathcliff quite as much as he loved her. I wouldn't say her love was false though. I don't think she understood her own feelings. Yes I'll say it again: conflicted. Heathcliff didn't really challenge her either. If he has said Kathy, I'm leaving and I'm never coming back that would have forced her hand. Instead he stays on and when he does leave, it is under a misunderstanding. Again, what if Cathy had caught up to him that night?

 

I agree with you. Cathy's love wasn't false. I was wrong about that. I don't think she understood what she really had with Heathcliff and his kind of love. How many guys like Heathcliff come along? But can she be happy with his love in a world that is less than she desires? I guess that's a question some girls have to answer.

[OllieTSB]

Gulp. I think I've just watched someone throw a bucket of water on Frank! Oh no! Or rather, Frank dumped the bucket over his head!

 

Not to worry, Grimesy - there's no house falling out of the sky, at least.

[CineMaven]

Hi Ollie, Folks. Look, I don't know anything about anything and I know less than nothing about everything, but I just had a thought...What if we don't understand the workings of our heroes and heroines b'cuz the author just didn't understand human psychology. What if we're getting twisted into pretzels simply b'cuz some 19th century writer (or 20th century writer) didn't understand psy-

chology in order to create their characters? And I don't mean that they couldn't have written a sto-

ry about a flawed human being.

 

The Tall T...over and out. Oh, and don't call me Shirley!

[molo14]

Hey Frank.

 

That is interesting that after taking a second look it changed your perspective, at least in part.

 

I must ponder all this.

 

Edited by: molo14 on Sep 13, 2010 7:55 AM

[molo14]

*Folks. Look, I don't know anything about anything and I know less than nothing about everything,*

 

Hey that sounds like me!

 

*What if we don't understand the workings of our heroes and heroines b'cuz the author just didn't understand human psychology. What if we're getting twisted into pretzels simply b'cuz some 19th century writer (or 20th century writer) didn't understand psy-*

*chology in order to create their characters? And I don't mean that they couldn't have written a sto-*

*ry about a flawed human being.*

 

Wow! More stuff to ponder.

 

Surely this is food for thought!

[JackFavell]

You are freaking me out.

 

Are you OK?

[rohanaka]

So how's that for a quick turnaround and admittance of being wrong?

 

What is the world COMING to??????? Now I HAVE to rewatch this again soon... Mr. Grey.. you have given me a LOT to think about here...

 

OH. this is a dramatic moment on the old message board!!

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> I thought everyone who has read my words against Cathy may find the following to be rather amusing: I don't hate her now. I just re-watched Wuthering Heights and I saw her hurt. I guess I was blinded to this the first time because I was so upset at her pushing aside Heathcliff's love for "silver buckles." I couldn't believe she could do such a thing, so easily. But during this viewing, I saw how she hated herself for hurting Heathcliff, for actually thinking so lowly of him and for choosing a world over his love. Her going to Peniston Crag during a storm does speak to her hating what she's done to Heathcliff.

>

 

Wow, that WAS a quick change of heart. Well, thank you for giving the movie

another shot since you felt that way about it. I have changed my mind about

movies I didn't like but I seldom have been willing to re-watch them that soon.

 

 

> So, I'm definitely wrong about Cathy not being conflicted. She was. And this makes my hate of her to be unwarranted. And I really cannot blame her for wanting to have a world.

>

> And I even liked the film in this second viewing.

>

 

Remarkable! So, it was her repentent rush to the crag in the rain that influenced

your change of opinion? I forgot to mention that scene. It's an ironic twist that

her resultant illness from that night landed her in Linton's "lap of luxury" and made

it that much easier for her to succumb. I can't say I blame her but I just know

what her feelings were deep down about Linton himself. I know she never responded

to him in any except gratitude and appreciation for his kindness. Otherwise, I'm

sure she was well aware of the difference in her feelings for him and for Heathcliff.

 

>

> Cathy: My mood changes indoors.... interesting.

>

 

Ha! That line makes me laugh every time.

 

 

> Heathcliff: Who turns you into a vain, cheap, worldly fool? Linton does! You'll never love him, but you let yourself be loved because it pleases your stupid, greedy vanity. Loved by that milksop with buckles on his shoes...

>

 

Heathcliff really knew how to tell it plain.

 

> Cathy: I was a queen there, once. - A wonderful line.

>

 

I thought that was beautiful.

 

And you and Molo have made me appreciate that these two really were

in love with a dream, a childlike fairytale as much as with each other. That

dream was clean and born of innocence...reality, human weakness and the

world intruded to ruin it. I believe this may be what Emily Bronte may have

also tried to convey. "Paradise Lost". Remarkable from such a young,

virginal daughter of a reclusive country parson who had no experience in life

but a genius and powerful imagination. I believe she never wrote another work and

died very young.

 

> I still believe Cathy demands a certain kind of knight more so than is in need of one, for she had one.

>

 

Well, how else is a lass to view her knight? She is SO much like Scarlett

in this aspect. For Scarlett, she thought Ashley was her knight. She

rejected her "dirty" knight, Rhett. Although ironically, Scarlett's feelings

for Ashley, however misguided, were genuine feelings, not motivated by

any worldly or ambitious desires, so in this one respect, she was not

as conflicted as Cathy.

 

> And this is actually where I stopped hating Cathy. When she chases after him in the storm and cries because she hurt him, drove him away. I still doubt her sticking with Heathcliff, but I at least see the conflict. Jackie and Miss Whosits are right, and I'm wrong.

>

 

Another irony is I somehow doubt Cathy would have stuck to Linton.

Her breaking out and running back to Heathcliff also has a feeling

of inevitability to it. I just don't think she was a creature to take the

long view. Her comments about angels and heaven (a favorite of mine)

speak to this.

 

> What's interesting is that Cathy hears music and she stops looking at Heathcliff while he's saying those impassioned words to her.

>

 

That is excellent...that is a transitional moment and it does comment

on her wayward nature. It also shows she was a creature of impulse,

of the moment. She never reflected. This is partly her youth but it

also is a personality trait. Maybe that is the real reason I have never

totally condemned her. I think she was rash, thoughtless, a childish

slave to her impulses. NONE of these are excuses, but I think Emily

Bronte was sketching for us a young woman of mecurical, wild nature.

She was not CALCULATING, something that I believe Emily wuold

have loathed and a quality she might have ascribed to the Lintons...notice

how Isabella is just as plotting and sneaky about getting what she wants,

namely Heathcliff? Her feelings are real but she is dishonest in how

she goes about it.

[JackFavell]

>That is excellent...that is a transitional moment and it does comment on her wayward nature. It also shows she was a creature of impulse,of the moment. She never reflected. This is partly her youth but italso is a personality trait. Maybe that is the real reason I have never totally condemned her. I think she was rash, thoughtless, a childish slave to her impulses. NONE of these are excuses, but I think Emily Bronte was sketching for us a young woman of mecurical, wild nature.

>She was not CALCULATING, something that I believe Emily wuold have loathed and a quality she might have ascribed to the Lintons...notice how Isabella is just as plotting and sneaky about getting what she wants, namely Heathcliff? Her feelings are real but she is dishonest in how she goes about it.

 

This is beautiful and totally on target - and it is the one way that Cathy and Hindley are alike - they are both impulsive and rash. They are definitely cut from the same cloth as far as this one trait is concerned, much as I hate to say it.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 13, 2010 1:01 PM

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 13, 2010 1:02 PM

[FrankGrimes]

This is beautiful and totally on target - and it is the one way that she and Hindley are alike - they are both impulsive and rash. They are definitely cut from the same cloth as far as this one trait is concerned, much as I hate to say it.

 

"Go and wash your face and hands, Heathcliff. And comb your hair so that I needn't be ashamed of you in front of the guests."

[rohanaka]

Hello my rambling friends!!!!! It has taken me a bit longer than I intended but I have finally gotten a chance to re-watch Wuthering Heights again. (at last!)

 

Wow. There is a LOT to sort through and I know there is no way I will be able to answer back to all the points that have been raised in this ramble. Though I did go back and try to read through most of it all, I am going to focus more on the recent ones (in part because of Mr. Grey?s BIG turn around on the movie, and also in part to keep this from being perhaps one of the longest posts ever in recorded history. HA)

 

First I have to tell you something that struck me as funny this morning when I was thinking over the whole story and all the characters.. ha. THIS movie could have been called PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, ha. because there sure were a WHOLE lot of "prideful" and "prejudiced" people running around all over it. ha. (but maybe it was just the "era" for that sort of thing, ha.)

 

And then next I have to say that I still have ?comparison? issues between this version of the story and the 1992 film. I REALLY did not realize how different they are (in terms of even the story and some of the characters) and I have NO idea how the two films compare to Miss Bronte?s book (never having read it myself) but there are some major differences (among other things, in the newer version Cathy and Edgar have a daughter, also named Cathy and Hindly (if I remember right) has a son and at the end of the film, they sort of form a relationship, etc) Also Heathcliff and Isabella have a son (who dies) and I think Isabella dies too (but I am not sure about that one)

 

ANYWAY, all of those details aside, the most NOTABLE differences between the two versions of the story are Heathcliff and Cathy characters. I said this before, but will risk repeating. The newer film is MUCH darker and far more ?grim? (especially Heathcliff) or at least that is how it seemed to me. And in some respects, to be truthful I LIKED the darker ?spin? on things because it made it VERY easy for me to be TOTALLY disgusted with both him and her (more or less) so I have carried my prejudice against them in my heart despite the fact that I liked the story a LOT. And Heathcliff and Cathy seem more ?brash and passionate? (and MUCH harsher)in the ?92 version, most likely because it was filmed in 1992 I am sure, but I wonder. COULD they have been written that way in the book, (more ?passionate and harsh? I mean) and then toned down for the sake of the 1930?s movie going populace? I have no idea.

 

I guess what I am saying is, (perhaps not TOO well) if I had seen the 1939 version BEFORE I saw the other story, my opinions on Heathcliff and Cathy would likely be much different. But because I saw the other film first, I have ALWAYS held a very strong dislike for them and what they do to one another.

 

But in truth, THIS version of the story makes me rethink a LOT of what I used to feel for them. (oh great, now I am sounding like FRANK GRIMES! Ha) I can?t say that I have given up my ?disgust? for them as people, but (especially after re-watching it all this week) and then also reading through some of your posts, I feel the Oliver and Oberon performances paint BOTH of these characters in a far more sympathetic light than I have ever remembered them in the past.

 

So let?s start from there and move forward from that perspective. (and in the meantime, I am strongly considering reading the BOOK now so I can figure this all out from THAT perspective too, and then maybe I can reconcile (or add to, ha) all this confusion in my cluttered mind, (ha)

 

First of all, I want to comment on something Jackie mentioned (because it lays the groundwork for a LOT that will follow in the story afterward.

 

Miss Favell says: Cathy's father destroyed Heathcliff by taking him out of the gutter and then forgetting about him, allowing Hindley to torment him. Where was he when Hindley was tearing the wings off of flies and beating stable boys? These landed "gentlemen" were either cruel, or hopelessly weak or, more to the point, blind

 

I think you have made an excellent point. If Earnshaw HAD been more aware of the needs (for better attitudes) in his OWN children, his attempt to help HEATHCLIFF have a better life might have been more successful. It is not enough to just ?take someone out of the gutter? if all you are going to do is throw them to the wolves instead. I wonder if he was away a lot (on business?) or if he fell ill soon after Heathcliff came into the picture and did not really have a chance to be a better benefactor to this new ?charge? he?d taken in. I don?t know. But he certainly was either CLUELESS or unable to stand up to the behavior and attitude issues in his own children. He was like the ?weekend? daddy who shows up w/ presents, pats the kids on the head, and then moves on to his own wants and interests and leaves someone else to supervise and care for his children. He expected them to adopt HIS good will and morals..but he did not seem to be able to instill them in an effective way (for whatever reason) and it truly did more to HARDEN Heathcliff?s heart (in many ways) than to help it.

 

I LOVE the moment where the young Heathcliff gives him a hug when he THINKS his life has finally gotten better and he has found a home. But sadly it appears that he was later to find out that although Mr Earnshaw had helped him ONE way, he?d just harmed him as well, in a completely different manner.

 

I think Heathcliff was ?savable? and I see Hindley as THE major set back from him truly being ?saved? as a child and then later on CATHY became the ?set back? for him instead. .As time went on, and they all grew up, I think Heathcliff COULD have (and maybe should have) just packed up and left to get out from under Hindley?s HIDEOUS treatment of him. And he most likely would have, IF ONLY it were not for Cathy. So as badly as he was treated, time and time again, there came a point where it really was as much his own fault as anyone?s as he WILLINGLY placed himself in that role. (BOY! talk about ?The things you do for love?, ha)

 

After he runs off (because he THINKS she has rejected him, all bets are off. He is a TOTALLY lost soul from there on out. COULD he have repented and finally just moved on to start his life over? Anything is POSSIBLE, (it should would have made at least HIS life much happier in the end) but I think his heart hard by then (and his HATRED for the names Earnshaw and Linton was too overpowering) For all his strength of personality.. he really was WEAK in character that way.

 

As for Cathy, well I have to say I really tried to pay a LOT closer attention to her this time (more than before, for sure) and I saw a LOT in her I never really noticed before.

 

First of all, early in her relationship with Linton, Cathy is sort of ?swept off her feet? with the idea of having all the ?pretties? she thought she?d ever wanted. It really was an attractive package for her to gaze upon and she WAS immature and very irresponsible. (and self centered too) All of which are a VERY bad combination of character traits for someone when a big ?glitzy? carrot (like the Linton lifestyle) gets dangled out in front of her.

 

Miss Goddess says I think she was rash, thoughtless, a childish slave to her impulses. NONE of these are excuses, but I think Emily Bronte was sketching for us a young woman of mecurical, wild nature

 

You have described her to a ?T? ma?am. I think you have her pegged exactly right. Another thing I would add is that she really isn?t a ?mean spirited? person, though sometimes she ACTS that way. She reminds me of a toddler who is just HONEST enough to not hide the fact that he (or she) REALLY (really, really, no, REALLY!) wants that luscious chocolate COOKIE on the fancy plate on the table. Once they see it, no matter HOW many times Mama might have said ?It?s not polite to ask? their every waking thought will become, ?HOW CAN I GET MY HANDS ON THAT COOKIE??

 

And Cathy REALLY (really, really, no REALLY!) wanted all the ?pretties? and excitement and perhaps even the romance that a relationship with Linton would bring her. But that was only a TEMPORARY happiness (much like cookie will only make you happy until it is gone) Because her REAL heart and her REAL passion were for Heathcliff. But she was just to immature to realize it and revel in it. She wanted Heathcliff AND the cookie, but reality was just ?real? enough for her that she KNEW she could not have both.

 

She wakes up to this truth gradually, and it takes her several tries to get it right. I like the part where she comes home from the Linton?s (all dressed up quite nicely, a WHOLE new ?Cathy? and she is very ugly toward Heathcliff (and he leaves) but then she comes to her senses and takes off the ?pretty? dress and puts on her every day clothes and runs out to meet him on the Moors. But then she falls back in love with her ?dream? again and gets all ?goo goo eyed? over Linton and his finery and leads him on to the point he proposed to her. But then she comes to her ?senese? again (but SADLY doesn?t FULLY realize her REAL heart without having to talk it all the way through first. And then TRAGICALLY that is what causes Heathcliff to only hear PART of what she said (because she starts out talking about how much she ?loves the cookie? first and he leaves before she says that BIG all powerful revelation ?I am Heathcliff?.

 

So what DID Cathy mean by the whole ?I am Heathcliff? speech? I know that you, Mr. Grey, had a lot of issues with this part of the story (at least early on) and I have given it a lot of thought. The whole build up to that moment where the ?lights? come on for her explains it for me best. She sees life at The Grange akin to ?heaven? and all the ?Lintons-like? people as being ?above? her (and Heathcliff) socially and perhaps in temperament and even in ?morals? but she has reached a place now where she is HAPPY being lower and actually LONGS to be lower than ?the angels?. She finally wants (and embraces) the truth that it is ok to be happy without ?the cookie? (ha. I am getting HUNGRY for cookies now, ha I think I need a snack!) It is GOOD to be ?like? Heathcliff. She IS the same as he is (in terms of what will make her happy in life) and I think THAT is what she means by saying she is ?Heathcliff?. (When I married the QT, our pastor used a phrase in our wedding that sums it up well, I think: ?You are no longer two, but one. One in interest, one in destiny, one in purpose?) Anyway, THAT is what I took Cathy to mean by what she said.

 

Frank Grimes says: And this is actually where I stopped hating Cathy. When she chases after him in the storm and cries because she hurt him, drove him away. I still doubt her sticking with Heathcliff, but I at least see the conflict

 

I am like you and Molo, I want to know WHAT would have happened if she had caught up with him that night. I don?t know if she?d have stuck with him or not. I think she might have. (THEN) but only because of her ?recent revelation? but who?s to say. You could be right and the attraction of all those ?cookies? she was missing out on (ha) might have been more than she could handle. But I also wonder what would have happened if he had walked in and yelled at her (before she finished talking) OR even MORE tantalizing is the thought of what MIGHT have happened for them if he had just stuck it out in that little room behind the kitchen a BRIEF moment longer and he had heard the whole story.

 

Those are the ?fascinating? questions that make talks like this so much fun. WHAT would have happened. IF only....

 

But alas.

 

Miss Goddess says: It's an ironic twist that her resultant illness from that night landed her in Linton's "lap of luxury" and made it that much easier for her to succumb. I can't say I blame her but I just know what her feelings were deep down about Linton himself. I know she never responded to him in any except gratitude and appreciation for his kindness. Otherwise, I'm sure she was well aware of the difference in her feelings for him and for Heathcliff

 

I have to say that at first it seems like GEE, Cathy just bounces around all over the place, from one ?true love? to another. (and early on, before her big revelation, I think that was true) But after Heathcliff leaves her, she is ?done in?. Not just by the illness from being out in the storm. I think she really felt as if he was gone forever from her and she had NOTHING in life to look forward to. And I think she was grateful to Linton for helping her. You are right, her love for him WAS more about her gratitude and appreciation for his kindness. It was as if her first love? had died and this was the ?kind man? she married in her grief. She loved him (for being so kind to her) but she NEVER had that passion for him that she had for Heathcliff.

 

And I have to say that (despite his ?entitled? and perhaps somewhat ?superior? attitude at times, (he WAS an elite and wealthy ?society? gentleman afterall) I really do see Linton as being a decent guy. (and I need to go back sometime and revisit that ?92 movie because I do not remember him being that way as much in that film. (but I also did not remember David Niven?s version being that likeable either, until I watched it all again this time, so it COULD just be the faulty memory of an OLD woman, ha)

 

Jackie says: And the worst thing is that someone like Edgar never even knew he was doing anything at all - by simply living his life as a manor born "gentleman" - taking what he wanted when he saw it , no matter how benignly

 

I have to confess that although he was not necessarily KIND toward Heathcliff (in general) in fact on a couple of occasions he was downright AWFUL in the way he spoke to him, I don?t think he was any WORSE toward him than you?d expect someone of his ?breeding? to be. (no I am not making excuse, I am just trying to understand his mindset)

 

And I think he absolutely WORSHIPED the ground CATHY walked on. I felt SO sorry for him during that scene on the stairs (where he just got the note from Isabella and Cathy is begging him to go kill Heathcliff, Because then he FINALLY gets it. She wanted him to kill Heathcliff, not to save Isabella but rather to save herself from having to live in a world where Heathcliff was not HERS. And now he has to face the ugly truth that (despite the fact she wants him dead) she REALLY does still love the ?other man? in a way that he will NEVER ever be loved by her.

 

And I liked HER response to that revelation as well. I think she really HAD tried to deny her feelings for Heathcliff up to that point. But then she knew that the truth was just HANGING out there for them both to see and it pained her that she had hurt him. (Because despite all her love for Heathcliff, I really do believe she WANTED to be faithful to her husband and that she had TRIED to care for Linton the best way that she could) It was a powerful moment to be sure.

 

Miss Goddess to Frank and Molo: +And you and Molo have made me appreciate that these two really were in love with a dream, a childlike fairytale as much as with each other. That dream was

clean and born of innocence...reality, human weakness and the world intruded to ruin it+

 

You have it exactly right ma?am. I think if they had been allowed to just stay out on the Moors without the real world intruding on them and if they had just been able to be themselves (without the ugliness of reality creeping in to steal their dreams) they had lived ?happily ever after? But life is NOT a fairy tale. And they WERE very flawed people in a very impossible situation. This actually is a ?grey? moment, ha. If their life had BEEN more ?black and white? then they MIGHT have been able to make better choices. But because it was not CLEAR to them what they should choose (in order to be TRULY happy) they made choices they BOTH regretted and it led them to make even WORSE choices later on down the road and ultimately they destroyed not only their OWN happiness, but the happiness of most everyone around them in the end.

 

Wow.. this is a long post.. my apologies for blabbing on and on and on.. and thanks for letting me get in here so late.. I aplogize that it took me SO long to finally get to see this film again. I appreciate you folks putting up with me! :-)

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Sep 16, 2010 3:28 AM

[JackFavell]

Don't apologize!

 

I thought it was wonderful! When you break it down into actions, the plot becomes so clear - each making their own willful mistake which leads to another and another - back and forth - loving - hurting - just like people do, until all hope for them is gone. I really enjoyed your post, the time just flew by while I was reading it. And I think you picked out the main points extremely well, clariifying the story a lot. Between you and MissG's posts, I have a far greater understanding of why I love the movie so much.

 

And I agree completely about Linton - even if I was a bit harsh on him for his position. David Niven is marvelous in the role, perfect in fact. He is another reason I love this movie so much....He was able to dig a little deeper and play that bloodless, slightly corrupted British upper class gentleman who has only an inkling of what is really going on. He is actually a lot like Cathy's father. It's great that Niven got the chance at such a great role - I would hate for him to have gone on playing Fritz in Prisoner of Zenda all his life. As it is, he ended up playing variations on this deeper role all his life.

 

Linton is a man with perfect breeding and bloodlines, but all the things in the world can't make him a man in his wife's eyes. That he sees her falling away from him is icing on the cake for us - I could imagine a version of this film in which all the characters were "black and white" - Linton being portrayed as a flat, nebbishy jerk - but Wyler and Hecht and MacArthur made us sympathize by turns with everyone in the film, and that is part of what makes it great.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 16, 2010 9:14 AM

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 16, 2010 9:14 AM