RAMBLES Part II

[JackFavell]

That's true... I do see the men as each injured in some way, stunted and lost. But then aren't we all? My reaction to the movie is to feel at turns exactly like each of the characters somewhat. There is that much truth in each characterization.

 

I think Gay is the most self actualized, to use a terribly modern term for being the closest to a whole man. He can reach his goals, except he has to decide what his goals are first. At the beginning, he simply can't help himself, he goes after Roslyn, and he will win her - that's his goal and he doesn't even know it. He is the alpha male, poor **** never has a chance against him. I think that scenario happened before with the two of them. Maybe over and over.

 

Later on, we realize Gay's long term goals are a boy's. He has to take a good look at what he thought his goals were, and where they are leading him. It seems to me that they lead to death, any way you look at it.

 

If he keeps his job, he is only a middleman, which is abhorrrent to him. If he continues catting around, he has no real offspring, we see that when he goes to make up with his kids and they'll have nothing to do with him. So he is unable to keep life flowing. I think maybe this is what the movie is actually about.

 

He's still living in the past, like many of us. His delusions of what he is now and was before are bringing him down, slowly. He thinks he's free out there, doing what he loves, free of the "wages", but as he says, they changed his job from honorable to dishonorable. Now he is as much trapped by the system as he would have been had he been in any other job. Perhaps he's deluded himself all along into thinking that his freedom was honest.... maybe it never was... but I like to think it was once.

 

Anyway, he is the only one willing to take steps to amend his life, the only one strong enough look at his place in the world, to say goodbye to it all because of love and because deep down he knows it's wrong, and to change direction. In this way, he gets his honor back adn his life, at least for a little while longer. It's a strong rider who can change horses in midstream.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Jan 30, 2012 4:24 PM

[JamesJazGuitar]

I have to admit you confused me since, at least to me, you mixed the personal life of Marilyn with the life of her character in The Misfits. I also felt you were talking about her acting ability. I guess not.

 

As for the on-screen character, all I can say is that is the type of women I would want nothing to do with. When I was younger and a lot more selfish I would of taken advantage of such a women. Now I would just ignore her. I just don't see much substance there.

 

 

 

 

[bagladymimi]

I do have to admit that part of my dislike of Marilyn in this movie is just that. I don't like the movie - it is depressing to me. But I find that all Miller's plays are depressing - same with Tennessee Williams and Eugene O'Neille. I would rather watch a mystery, suspense, comedy, etc than a depressing film. And I don't think this type of thing served Monroe very well either. And I find it particularly depressing that several of these people died right after this movie was made.

[CineMaven]

*Roslyn/Marilyn Favellspenskaya*

 

Ethereality. Okay...I think you've given me the hook to help me be able to understand her. Your personalities are similar you say, though you've toughened up over the years. Alright. That'll surely give you a leg up on me. With the movie this time around, my mission was specifically Marilyn. Reading what you wrote makes it so I'll have to dive in there again with another looksee, and focus on the men's journey.

 

*Frank Grimes*

 

 

Good comparison between Marilyn and Ava and their emotional screen personas; never thought of that. Marilyn...five-years old. What a conundrum for you guys to deal with with her (or a woman like her). But I suspect being genuinely kind and protective of her might yield rewards for a man, on a couple of levels.

 

 

*MadHat Molo of the Glo-lo'ed Moloes*

 

 

Looks like I'd better get thee to the archives quick, fast and in a hurry, and check out that past discussion. Aaaahhhh...most likely it was a pip! Oh, and what food for thought you gave me about that strange cargo.

 

 

 

Marilyn...we're still talking about you after all these years.

[JackFavell]

I forgot the little trick to get into the archived threads.... I tried to go to page fifty and there wasn't any.

[MissGoddess]

My movie watching has been so scattered and really not worth mentioning, but two titles shared something in common:

 

*Undercurrent* (1946)

This movie is very hard to categorize. I suppose a "suspense" film comes closest to describing it, though it's fairly predictable. Vincente Minnelli directed an oddly assorted cast of very talented stars including Katharine Hepburn who was enjoying a peak, Robert Taylor who was branching out into darker characters, and Robert Mitchum, who's star was definitely on the rise. I think the most interesting thing about the movie is the casting, I never quite get over how strange they all seem with each other. Taylor has the easiest of it, he's playing a crazy man so he doesn't have to "gel" with the others, in fact, that is the main problem with his character, psychologrically speaking..even the doggie and horsey know it and the horse especially proves to be a good diagnostician.

 

Mitchum never gets much to do except wear a trenchcoat more effectively than anyone since Bogart and look a bit blank in his scenes with Katie.

 

Finally, poor Kate, I give her much credit for really trying. She's actually very good and believable (though one feels the role is one that could have been filled by almost any young actress) it's just that the movie falls apart or fails to ring true. In one of the strangest parts, she visits the "ranch" that supposedly belonged to her husband's (Taylor) brother, who has disappeared. It's a rather eclectically modernistic, ultra chic place...scarcely what I'd call a ranch, in which I can't see any chicken daring to peep its head let alone the kind of man Michael Galloway is described as being (unpretentious, down to earth), and Kate after inspecting it goes on and on about how it's so charming, such a "real home". It's beautiful and I actually liked it but I wouldn't have used any of those words to describe it. It's straight out of Architectural Digest and didn't look as if anyone dared move a thing out of place. I got the impression Minnelli spent more time ensuring the elements of decor worked together at this "ranch" than he did in getting a script and cast to be equally harmonious.

 

I also watched *My Cousin Rachel* (1952), and quite by coincidence, I believe both movies may have featured the same piece of music by Brahms. I'm no expert, though, I just thought it funny this should happen by chance. Both movies also feature suspicion, paranoia and doubt about a potential mate.

 

I'm not sure if TCM has ever broadcast this Fox film directed by Henry Koster, but it's an engrossing tale with gothic touches about paranoia and jealousy, and Richard Burton is outstanding in one of the best roles of his early film career. The ending is very enigmatic, in true Daphne Du Maurier fashion. One wonders what Hitchcock might have done with the material, as he was familiar with adapting her works and the skittish psychological territory was his native heath. I've never been able to feel quite the same about tisanes since I first saw this movie as a kid.

[kingrat]

MissG, I believe that *My Cousin Rachel* has never been shown on TCM. Perhaps Fox is holding on to it. I couldn't agree more about Richard Burton's outstanding performance. A good film.

 

Your comments about the decor in *Undercurrent* are funny and right on point. Given a choice between realism and elegant decor, Minnelli would always choose the latter. You'd really expect a film with Minnelli directing Hepburn, Taylor, and Mitchum to be a lot better than this. As you said, any actress could have played the heroine; it's not really a Hepburn role. It doesn't help that Hepburn and Taylor have almost no chemistry. Hepburn and Mitchum have zero chemistry, or maybe even negative chemistry. There are few couples on screen ever who have had less chemistry.

[JackFavell]

I enjoyed *My Cousin Rachel* very much. It's brooding and intense. I agree that perhaps a more stylish or suspenseful director could have really made it a wow movie, if you know what I mean.

 

As it is, it's the kind of movie that feels like a discovery, because it gets absolutely no attention in movie discussions. I thought Olivia de Haviland was quite good, she carries just the right balance of bland hauteur and sensitivity to keep you guessing. Burton is excellent as the boyish fellow who cannot control his love, jealousy and suspicion of her. Its a pleasure to watch him when he still cared about acting.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=kingrat wrote:}{quote}It doesn't help that Hepburn and Taylor have almost no chemistry. Hepburn and Mitchum have zero chemistry, or maybe even negative chemistry. There are few couples on screen ever who have had less chemistry.

 

Kingrat,

Ha! There was definitely no electricity in this *Undercurrent*. I can only imagine what sarcastic remarks Mitchum must have made about the production.

 

Still, I enjoyed it okay, once I lowered my expectations.

[CineMaven]

>Ha! There was definitely no electricity in this Undercurrent.

Nyuk! Nyuk!

 

Hi Miss G., hey Brother Rat. I see you both had a pretty tepid reaction to "Undercurrent." Do you have any thoughts about Jayne Meadows in this movie?

 

 

I always thought she was an arch statuesque noirish type femme fatale only seeing her in three films: "Undercurrent" "Enchantment" and "Lady in the Lake." Did she make any impression on you?

 

Hi there JackaaAaay...I didn't see it under the best circumstances (YouTube) but I remember enjoying "My Cousin Rachel" very much; the young handsome brooding tortured Burton (with that voice!) and the mysterious ambiguous Olivia deHavilland.

[kingrat]

 

I do like Jayne Meadows, especially in *Enchantment*. I'd only seen her on TV with Steve Allen, so it was quite a surprise to see her as the villain.

 

Mitchum and Hepburn did not get along on the set of *Undercurrent*. I know you'll all be shocked, shocked to hear that. Mitchum referred to the movie as *Underdrawers*. This is from Lee Singer's entertaining biography of Mitchum.

 

 

[JamesJazGuitar]

With regards to the "mysterious ambiguous Olivia deHavilland" a review I saw on the movie in the book The Films of Olivia deHavilland knock the movie for the fact that Olivia's character is indeed to ambigous. It isn't even very clear when she dies where she stood. It was nice to see Olivia back making movies after 3 or so years away and after her great late 40s run. Olivia looked very nice in the movie but I do see what they review was getting at.

[MissGoddess]

*Jackie*

I do not know why My Cousin Rachel is not more widely appreciated, perhaps it has only to appear on TCM to rectify this. I do believe it would find a ready audience with suspense enthusiasts, fans of the gothic, and of films like Rebecca, Jamaica Inn or even 1944's Jane Eyre.

 

*CinemAva*

I forgot to mention Jayne, who I wish had more screen time, as her character teased us with the thought that Allen (Robert Taylor) was really in love with her, and only sought to make Ann (Katharine Hepburn) over in her image. This would provide more of a neat parallel to Du Maurier's films. I think ultimately, the film may have failed because of its studio (MGM). It doesn't have any one distinct idea or tone, and that sometimes is a result of producer interference. It was before Minnelli scored his biggest hits and granted more autonomy.

 

 

But you were asking about Jayne specifically...she's great, I think, at playing just what you describe: a statuesque noirish type. In fact, for the first time I questioned whether Kate Hepburn really was tall at all for she seemed positively dwarfed next to Jayne, even in platform heels! Jayne is outstanding in Enchantment, she's so awful! In fact, she earns a place as one of my top ten villainesses for that role.

 

 

She played a similar type of "other woman" in the Tyrone Power whimsicality, Luck of the Irish and wasn't she in one of the (later) Thin Man movies?

 

 

Yes, Jayne always makes an impression. I do like her (and her sister).

 

 

*Kingrat*

Underdrawers

HAA!!

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Feb 6, 2012 8:34 PM

[bagladymimi]

I have seen My Cousin Rachel on either TCM or Fox Movie Channel within the last couple of years. I was so surprised to see it, because it had been years (35 or more) since I had last seen it. Maybe it will come around soon - now that I think about it, I think it was FMC. You could always go to their website and request it.

[CineMaven]

*MISS GODDESS: It's straight out of Architectural Digest and didn't look as if anyone dared move a thing out of place. I got the impression Minnelli spent more time ensuring the elements of decor worked together at this "ranch" than he did in getting a script and cast to be equally harmonious.*

 

Ha! You know, I ofttimes think "more money" spoils a production. Sleek and glossy instead of rustic and homey.

 

*Mitchum never gets much to do except wear a trenchcoat more effectively than anyone since Bogart and look a bit blank in his scenes with Katie.*

 

Ahhhh Mitchum. I love him. But I wonder if in this case he's really faced with an actress who can act.

 

*Jayne is outstanding in Enchantment, she's so awful! In fact, she earns a place as one of my top ten villainesses for that role.*

 

Yeah. My heart broke for Teresa Wright in that movie. Ooooh, I'd love to see your other nine. (I do hope Agnes Moorhead in "Dark Passage" makes the cut).

 

*JACKAAAAY: It's a pleasure to watch him when he still cared about acting.*

 

My ex-coworker (a pre-Kg teacher) told me:

 

"I saw Burton on stage when I was sixteen in 'Camelot.' A first date with a boy from Manhattan. I was blown away. He was amazing, very young."

 

Jackaaay, d'ya think he eventually just phoned it in? During Elizabeth or after Elizabeth?

 

[MissGoddess]

>

> Yeah. My heart broke for Teresa Wright in that movie. Ooooh, I'd love to see your other nine. (I do hope Agnes Moorhead in "Dark Passage" makes the cut).

>

 

Some of these are just entertaining or interesting, but the first two are just loathesome to me.

 

1. Geraldine Page in *Toys in the Attic*

2. Hope Emerson in *Caged*

3. Gene Tierney in *Leave Her to Heaven*

4. Bette Davis in *The Little Foxes*

5. Judith Anderson in *Rebecca*

6. Ann Savage in *Detour*

7. Agnes Moorehead in *Dark Passage*

8. Jayne Meadows *Enchantment*

9. Bette Davis in *The Letter*

10. Margaret Hamilton in *The Wizard of Oz*

11. Jean Gillie in *Decoy*

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Feb 7, 2012 9:53 AM

[movieman1957]

"My Cousin Rachel" is on YouTube. The whole thing from a recording from AMC is there. I started to watch it mainly to see if I could recognize the Brahms but fell asleep. It's no knock on the film. I've been sick so I take it when I can get it.

[MissGoddess]

I hope you feel better soon, movieman...take care of yourself. You may want to pick a more cheerful movie than *My Cousin Rachel*...especially for a sick man! Just be sure you avoid tisanes.

[JackFavell]

I hope you are feeling better again soon, movieman! Please take good care of yourself.

[CineMaven]

Sorry to hear you're under the weather MM'57. I'd suggest Robitussin mixed with Grey Goose, but rest and chicken soup might be more practical. Take care, man.

 

Miss G., THANK YOU!!

 

> *Some of these are just entertaining or interesting, but the first two are just loathesome to me:*

> *1. Geraldine Page in Toys in the Attic*

> *2. Hope Emerson in Caged*

> *3. Gene Tierney in Leave Her to Heaven*

> *4. Bette Davis in The Little Foxes*

> *5. Judith Anderson in Rebecca*

> *6. Ann Savage in Detour*

> *7. Agnes Moorehead in Dark Passage*

> *8. Jayne Meadows Enchantment*

> *9. Bette Davis in The Letter*

> *10. Margaret Hamilton in The Wizard of Oz*

> *11. Jean Gillie in Decoy*

*"Mi hermanas..."*

 

Thanx for making that list of villainesses. They're great. I'd have to think real long and strong to come up with anymore for that list. Not one of 'em has a redemptive bone in their body.

 

 

...Just the way I like my lethal ladies.

 

 

Oh...I might add Jane Greer to the mix, but Greer seems more of a femme fatale even though she does kill three men in cold blood. Wait, hold on...let me not quibble. Your list is brilliant!!

[movieman1957]

Thanks for all the wishes. All three of us have it. We couldn't decide whether it was food poisoning or just a badly timed stomach thing, It's been ugly.

[MissGoddess]

CinemAva:

 

You know, Jane Greer in *Out of the Past* really should have been on my list. I did have her in mind then when I typed the list I totally forgot her! I'm sure there are others I forgot, too.

 

A fun one is Hillary Brooke in the Sherlock Holmes classic, *The Woman in Green*.

 

How would you classify Sister Ruth in *Black Narcissus* and Irena in Cat People? Villainous or Misunderstood?

[bagladymimi]

How about Anne Baxter in All About Eve? She was a really good villain.

[bagladymimi]

Hope you are feeling better soon. Those stomach things are really bad - makes you kind of scared to eat anything again.

Take care,

Mimi

[CineMaven]

Miss Goddess - I think both of those gals are misunderstood. Carnally misunderstood. Aaaah Hillary Brooke...

 

Am I diving off a bridge too far if I say:

 

Margaret Hamilton as the Wicked Witch in "The Wizard of Oz"?