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*It takes a very discerning heart to understand the difference between "romantic" feelings or passion (that may be fleeting) and the kind of true love that deepens and grows over time. And THAT is what I really want from my marriage. And maybe that is what Charlotte THOUGHT she had with Jerry.. but I just don't see it that way... (again.. I am sure others may have a different point of view... but this is just my own opinion)*

 

Jacks,

 

You are not alone in your opinion about love. We get sold so much on fireworks, passion, electricity in glances and so much more under the guise of romantic love.

 

Romance is wonderful. I'm all for great chemistry and passion.

 

But, a lot of that wears out (sometimes very quickly). I'm like you. I'm in it for the love, respect and in the end, going through live together dealing with its ups and downs, the good and bad, the tragedies and the joys with someone you love is much more passionate to me than all those cliche versions of what passion passes for on soaps, night time tv shows, the movies, romance novels, commercials and everything in between.

 

Guess I am just a lucky old-fashioned kind of girl. Glad to know I'm not the only one!

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> {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

> *It takes a very discerning heart to understand the difference between "romantic" feelings or passion (that may be fleeting) and the kind of true love that deepens and grows over time. And THAT is what I really want from my marriage. And maybe that is what Charlotte THOUGHT she had with Jerry.. but I just don't see it that way... (again.. I am sure others may have a different point of view... but this is just my own opinion)*

>

> Jacks,

>

> You are not alone in your opinion about love. We get sold so much on fireworks, passion, electricity in glances and so much more under the guise of romantic love.

>

> Romance is wonderful. I'm all for great chemistry and passion.

>

> But, a lot of that wears out (sometimes very quickly). I'm like you. I'm in it for the love, respect and in the end, going through live together dealing with its ups and downs, the good and bad, the tragedies and the joys with someone you love is much more passionate to me than all those cliche versions of what passion passes for on soaps, night time tv shows, the movies, romance novels, commercials and everything in between.

>

> Guess I am just a lucky old-fashioned kind of girl. Glad to know I'm not the only one!

 

That was Rohanaka, not me...

 

I agree with you that life can't always be about passion. However, I do think there is a difference in Jerry and Charlotte's case -if it was just passion alone, then they would have drifted away from one another - There was a lot more there. They were 'sympatico'. You can;t control it, you can't plan it. You can walk away, and yes, Ro, that would be the hard thing to do and the right thing, but we aren't always about the right thing. How could this woman throw away love with both hands? I also agree with Frank that there must be an element of passion included in that love, without it, it isn't love it is simply comfort.

 

I am horrified to say that I am all the way on Frank's side this time as far as *Now Voyager* is concerned. I think that may be the best post you have ever made on the boards, at least to me. The idea that you cannot choose who you are going to feel love for.... that unhappiness is real, love does not always work out the way you want it to.... but we make the best of things, and we CAN be useful and caring even living without that big passion......I also agree that we are seeing a slice out of Charlotte's life....she is living a completely new life... she doesn't know what is coming around the next bend..... and she isn't always able to make the best decisions, but she MUST make those decisions with the hand she is dealt. it was all beautifully said. I don't even know why I am posting because he said it all already.

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I really like the interaction between Davis and Bonita Granville as the bratty June. June is so dreadful, the way she torments Charlotte, and likes to dig in the needle...she really gets across the cruelty of teens... how they unknowingly (well, unthinkingly) can hurt and wound. I love the way Davis puts her in her place after she comes back from the boat trip....and the look of wonderment and eventual respect Granville has.... it's all super. I think with the likes of Gladdie and Mary WIckes, Granville doesn't get the credit for portraying the most obnoxiously normal of young women. She somehow makes her seem rather wholesome and decent all along.

 

Who can resist this transformation?

 

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Edited by: JackFavell on Feb 23, 2010 9:19 AM

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Feb 23, 2010 9:21 AM

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Hello there my little OK Kid...

 

They were 'sympatico'. You can;t control it, you can't plan it. You can walk away, and yes, Ro, that would be the hard thing to do and the right thing, but we aren't always about the right thing. How could this woman throw away love with both hands? I also agree with Frank that there must be an element of passion included in that love, without it, it isn't love it is simply comfort.

 

I totally understand WHY folks like this film. The "romance" factor is way off the charts... and it IS easy to have sympathy for Charlotte and Jerry.. and their plight. I don't think EITHER of them set out to be "loose" or have some sort of illicit "fling", etc... And I do agree with you about why those two loved one another. So I know my thoughts are in the minority on this one... I am too "cut and dried" sometimes, maybe, but I just see some of it differntly (about whether she should have stayed or moved on)

 

But isn't it fun that we can see things SO differently.... and yet we BOTH can still be SHOCKED and appalled that you would agree with FRANK!!! (ha) KIDDING!!! Only kidding. ha.

 

What I really was going to say was that it is fun to be able to see the same movie and walk away on completely different sides of the issue and still end up friends at the end of the day. (At least I HOPE that is the case.. ha. Don't all you gals start throwing stuff at me all at once..ha) :D

 

PS Ms Cutter: Guess I am just a lucky old-fashioned kind of girl. Glad to know I'm not the only one

 

Me too!! :-)

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Buttery, I've already sent you a warning about NOT ONE LOST-PINE WORD about our CenTex weather this Tuesday! NOT ONE PHOTO, NOT ONE WORD. Boy... you're so cute, smart AND you get the best looking scenery, too. Now, the weather helps you out, too?!! Jiminy... Do you do this to me on purpose? I THINK SO!! grumble grumble, grouse grouse...

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> {quote:title=rohanaka wrote:}{quote}

 

> But isn't it fun that we can see things SO differently.... and yet we BOTH can still be SHOCKED and appalled that you would agree with FRANK!!! (ha) KIDDING!!! Only kidding. ha.

 

 

Oh that killed me!!! I didn;t see it coming and it made me giggle.

 

> What I really was going to say was that it is fun to be able to see the same movie and walk away on completely different sides of the issue and still end up friends at the end of the day. (At least I HOPE that is the case.. ha. Don't all you gals start throwing stuff at me all at once..ha) :D

 

No, we only throw things at Frank....

 

I'm glad you understand... I just want to have my Charlotte and Jerry all dreamy with the romantic smoking and I don't want to think about cigarette smoke killing you and I don't want to think about them being wrong in their love.. If you know what I mean.

 

You know, I realize that in real life, I would come down on your side, and did when someone I know was in that situation.

 

But in the movies? I am a hopeless romantic.

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p

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Is there something wrong, Charlotte? It's eleven o'clock and you're only on

your second pack of cigarettes.

 

 

Now, Voyeur is a delicious piece of gooey marshmallow delight, sprinkled on top with

sinfully fattening Hollywood hokum of the old school. Who wouldn't stuff it down the

old gullet gleefully, with a big smile? A fairytale shot through with just enough naturalism

makes for an agreeably toothsome dish.

 

Charlotte Vale version #1, Beyond the Valley of the Frumps. Egads! The secret smoking

and mildly naughty books are bad enough but, oh lawdy, those eyebrows. They should have

been nominated for an Academy Award all by themselves. Movies being a visual medium,

it's hard to keep your eyes off them. They stick out like two petrified caterpillars. Ma Vale

may have browbeat Charlotte, but apparently not quite enough. Not having to watch those

things for almost two hours is one of the greatest reliefs in movie history. Thank goodness for

The Makeover of '42.

 

Ma Vale, The Creature from the Back Bay. A real witch, intolerant and cold, but what a dame.

I'm sure there have been meaner movie moms, but it's hard to think of one off hand. And she

does it all in such an old-fashioned ,Victorian, no appeals, high-horse style. Miss Havisham

without the tenderness. If the old lady ever saw the youngsters roasting wienies over the

fireplace, she'd have a fit that no amount of smelling salts could help. How fortunate she

passed away before she could be exposed to such a degrading sight. An unexpected example

of Sir Alfred's old dictum: The more interesting the villain, the better the picture.

 

Mr. Jeremiah Duvaux Durrance. Come again. No wonder he prefers plain old Jerry. Oh,

he's a nice enough guy, sensitive and charming, loyal to his horrible frau. Handy with a

drink or a light. Would have made a hell of a gentleman's gentleman. But since he won't

dump the missus, you have to wonder where he would be in Charlotte's future. They do

have their "non love child" to raise up, but after that, things look rather bleak. After the

kid graduates from Vassar, what then? If only the first wife was killed in a car accident or

died of a mysterious incurable illness, that would be the icebreaker. Even the Hollywood

types had some shame left and wouldn't go there.

 

Elliott Livingston. Yes, sometimes you can tell a book by its cover. The name says it all.

Blue blood, but Charlotte starts seeing Ma Vale all over again, though in a much more

polite and pleasantly arranged package. Nice guys do finish last, but there's no doubt that

the very eligible Elliott won't have any problems finding a new love.

 

Dr. Jaquith. Friendly old Claude Rains giving his usual fine supporting performance. Dr. J is

patient, witty, helpful, thrifty, cheerful, clean, etc. You couldn't wish for a better headshrinker.

It is he who, besides Charlotte herself, is most responsible for her transformation into

a mature, self-realized woman. That means no more supercilious woolly-boogers too. Thanks

a million, Doc. The Nobel Prize announcement is on its way.

 

Charlotte Vale 2.0. Outer and inner transformation. Can't help thinking that when it comes

to the former, a big pile of cash can't hurt. Maybe a little bit in the latter too. Some poor old

regular frump would have a much harder time changing herself into the dazzling, sensitive

creature that is Charlotte Vale. The breeding of monies counts. That's rather irrelevant to

the movies, since suffering in furs is a given. In the end, Charlotte has the cold and distant

stars, though you have to wonder if she could have had the moon with the young gentlemen

she was making out with in the limo on her first cruise so long ago, when John Gilbert and

Mabel Norman swam the Atlantic. All in all, Mother GoshDarn, well played, very well

played.

 

Good to see Sam Spade finally gave Effie a vacation. That gal truly deserves one. Archer

was always too much of a cheapskate to give her paid time off.

 

Smokin'. The Surgeon General should have come down on this movie like ants on a dead

beetle. Of course, back in the day, they didn't have a clue.

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Jaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...those are wonderful screen caps you provided of Charlotte?s transformation to Camille. Poor Charlotte, frightened...hunched over...clutching...hunted...haunted. Camille, back straight...head up...a light veil of mystery over those Bette Davis eyes. That's an iconic shot!!

 

But I look at Bette Davis? eyes in that shot you chose of her in that beautiful wide brimmed hat. (I loved Ilsa's hat at the end of "Casablanca" too). I still see sadness in her eyes. (And that's my girl Bette...portraying what is intangible; how the heck...). I loved Bette?s full hair and fiery attitude in ?ALL ABOUT EVE.? I loved the way she tossed her hair around, tossed her words around, tossed herself around. It appeals to my sense of empowerment watching her roar about ?Eve, Eve!? (Oooh, to see Margo and Addison have at it would have been a dream match!) But her sleekness here in "Now, Voyager" and sadness and watching her take her first steps of independence from her mother - societal position...it?s heartening. And that shot you posted Jackaaaaaay says it all since I can see the movie and hear the music vividly in my mind's eye.

 

< ROHANAKA writes >:

 

?More or less.... And I don't want to come off sounding judgemental about it. Because I DO think she more or less resisted the actual physical 'affair' (for the most part) or tried to anyway. But I also think she settled. I wanted MORE for her than to wish for the stars..ha. I think she deserved the moon.. but she did not allow herself to wish for it. So in my mind she set her sites too low.?

 

< FRANK GRIMES writes >:

 

?What Charlotte wants is what I think every woman wants and that's for a man to stir them... inside. Elliot (and other men) can be nice, kind, and loving but he cannot arouse Charlotte like Jerry can. It's something that your inside, and only your inside, tells you about a man (or woman). And it's not purely a sexual thing, but it's completely attached to the sexual. A man that can relax a woman or make her laugh or make her feel good about herself stirs her inside. Oh, forget it! Like I would know!?

 

Aaaaah Mighty Ro...thinking with your head; whoa Frankie G., you closet romantic. You know more than you let on. You know all the girls here are crazy about your shiftlessness.

 

I believe you?re both right in your view of Miss Charlotte Vale. What you wrote Rohanaka makes absolute & total sense to me. We want what?s best for Charlotte...not to settle; we want her to give her young charge the skills to rely on herself, not a substitute Mom. You?d be the girlfriend I?d call to find out ?why hasn?t he called me...he said he loved me.? You?d give me my medecine in a gentle way (hopefully) and I?d reluctantly take it, throw away the ice cream and calm down. Good, solid advice. You'd probably even make me laugh at my folly. But that?d be my head talking. I need that in my real life. But in my reel life...in terms of watching films (I can?t talk about real life. What do I know about real life), I guess I come at movies from a more emotional p.o.v. Charlotte might not have made the best logical choices in this film. But I connected to her on an emotional level. I LOVE all that you wrote. As I read your posts I was saying to myself "yeah, that's right. Of course. Yup, she's right." And I?m happy that those of you who chose to share some of your personal self here have found love, happiness, companionship, respect. Actually, it shows in your writing. It shows in how you treat other posters. It's positive, polite, unobstructive. (Yo, I make up words...a'ight!!!) It?s always interesting to read what you really, thoughtfully have to say. We all come to movies from different perspectives. (I'm not saying anything you don't know. I'm just sayin').

 

We agree. We don?t agree. Cool. We like, we don?t like. Fine. But at least its expressed fully. We can see the thoughts. We can see the effort. The hate threads that go on on this Message Board are so silly that I just can?t. Really I can?t...b?cuz it?s not about Movies...Films...the Cinemahhhhhh. Look, folks pricking holes in iconic stars and films on those threads to make themselves feel better, superior, smarter than the the average bear...brutha! All it screams is: ?TALK TO ME!!!!!! I WANT ATTENTION!!!!! LOOOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!? Thanx but no thanks. Don't bother to answer me folks, I most likely have you on < IGNORE > though you're reading every drop of what I say. What gets my attention, our attention is the thoughtffull expression of one?s likes and dislikes.

 

Now me...I am a c0ck-eyed romantic, as I?ve said b?4. I?m emotional about movies. I can?t explain it. It won?t make sense, but some get it. And I'm blessed and lucky for those that do. I really enjoy ?Now, Voyager.? Is it true to a psychologically sound life...maybe not. But it touches me. In real life, about my life, I?m more careful...weigh things. I?m a Capricorn....we think and weigh and weigh and think...all kinds of stuff. But with movies...I totally give myself to them. Plot holes can be jarring. But I?m sometime very forgiving of that as well. Not slavishly...not all the time. Heck, eating a pint of Haagen-Dazs at a clip isn't something I do all the time either. But I do it. i.e.:

 

* Boy meets girl on a park bench.

 

* Boy marries girl by next scene.

 

* Girl fights boy b?cuz he won?t let her work.

 

* Boy and girl part.

 

* Girl realizes she really wants boy, not work, her own money or her independence.

 

* Girl leaves job.

 

* Boy is grateful to have her back.

 

* They live happily ever after.

 

Scary.

 

But I might just buy that synopsis if Greer or Teresa or Bette or Joan or Olivia or Jennifer or Jean/Jeanne/Gene is attached to it. He's rough. He beats her. Belittles her. Hell NO. But if it's Gable or Gary or Henry or Larry or Robert/Robert/Robert...meh. I'll bite. I'll buy. Emotional. Might not make sense. But that's okay.

 

With Bette Davis, what I marvel at is the fact that this is the same girl who faced Eduardo Cianelli in "Marked Woman" and told him she'd get him, even if she had to crawl back from her grave to do it. I marvel at the fact that this is the same woman who laughed maniacally when giving her sister a dead rat to eat. I marvel at the fact that this is the same cold "b" who has Susan Hayward as a daughter and Joey Heatherton as a grand-daughter. I marvel at the fact that this is the same woman who had a stroke and hip replacement and STILL acted after that.

 

What can I tell ya, I love "Now, Voyager." And I enjoyed what you wrote Mighty Ro. Will I watch the movie every time it's on? Probably not. Not always in the mood to be emotional for 90 minutes at a time. And when we watch movies...we shouldn't settle. We should ask for the moon, the sun, the whole dagblasted galaxy.

 

But I'm okay if I just get to live on waiting for a shooting star.

 

And if you read scripts Ro...I'd like to share one with you. You can help me keep my characters on the straight and narrow. Flaws and all.

 

Edited by: CineMaven on Feb 23, 2010 2:04 PM 'cuz I'm a Capricorn and had to fine tune my thoughts

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What a pleasure that was to read, CinemAva. Your thoughtful words burn up the monitor! :D And I can assure you that I'm one who does read every word you write...with genuine pleasure. :)

 

In fact your words can speak for me. You said far, far better than I what I feel about the *wisdom* of the Charlotte/Jerry situation vs. the emotional craving/satisfaction of it.

 

Mongo-Goodheart! :D Great to see you here, fellow guest programmer, picture-poster extraordinaire.

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Photobucket

 

Beautiful, just beautiful. You made me cry.

 

Partly because I had written that, at least to me, her eyes were the same in both shots, but then deleted it because I couldn't express it properly. I was so happy that you noticed.

 

And partly because you write so well and it moved me.

 

Non tenerti il segreto del cuore, amico mio.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Feb 23, 2010 2:55 PM

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:D You never go to far Miss Ava. These past several days have been just wonderful here. Like old times, all of us hunched around the pot-belly stove, swapping opinions and keeping out the cold and the wolves at bay!

 

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"Cinie-T that was a beautiful post! I loved reading about it! I love staying home when it snows IN TEXAS, doing homework and reading about Now, Voyager....how exciting!"

 

Thank you so much T-H. Now YOUR homework is to watch "Now, Voyager." Had you watched it already...did I not read the past coupla pages properly. Correct an old (Capricorn) goat!

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Why MissG. this is what your Mission Statement was for your thread, waaaaay back in November.

 

http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=149374&tstart=0&messageID=8321660#8321660

 

"So please feel free to pull up a chair, stool or crate and ramble away!" :-)

 

And varmints and barbarians at the gates are just a mere Ignore Member away.

 

Aaaaaah, I feel rather like Caligula...a thumbs UP or thumbs DOWN by the mere click of a button. I'm heady with power.

 

Now, if only I were Hedy Lamarr...

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Good day Dutch Boy!

 

I'm his boot lick!

 

You're somethin'...I'm still trying to figure just what you are. Heehee!

 

I forget the scene! I've only seen the film once. You can tell because Jackie took me to the woodshed with it. She owes me a few.

 

I know and she did a marvelous job with it! :D

 

So you get goosebumps with Grace, too! Wonderful!

 

oh goodness, not is a good way, but in a She's-so-cold-she-gives-me-shivers kind of way!

 

, I do like it when she gets mad in Shadow of a Doubt. When a sweet girl gets mad, I take it more seriously.

 

That was certainly a different role for her to pull of, which she did quite well. Why do you take a sweet girl getting mad so seriously? What do you do, get mad with her? Heehee!

 

Puppy dog eyes!

 

If you're trying to make me jealous......it's working, Frankie, so cut it out pretty please or I'll start pouting! :)

 

Because some of the scenes I saw in Madame Curie while taking caps looked interesting. I also like the idea of husband and wife working together. Hitchcock had it right.

 

Hitchcock didn't make the movie, silly! He would have made it to where Pierre gets murdered and Marie would be made guilty! Terrible stuff! :P

 

He passed out!

 

I pas out all the time! It's not fun, but if you can see, I'm not dead, silly. He passed out from the pain. It was his body's way of trying to handle it. trust me, If anyone knows, I do, unfortunately. When Greer saw him pas out, her motherly instincts immediately kicked in and she grabbed the gun away from him and hid it. Her children were still asleep upstairs. what would you have done?.....oh boy, I'm asking the wrong person here. Heehee!

 

I've got my ways.

 

Oh that's comforting!

 

And I liked that he was sitting in the dry, warm cabin, smoking his pipe. Very Walter.

 

He was trying to make her come back in. I love it when Walter takes the initiative! It makes him so undeniably more handsome!

 

I wasn't criticizing Ronald Colman. He was on target. It's just that his character is in a fog or forgetful of Paula for most of the film, so you're not going to get any emotion from him. It's up to Greer to provide that. The best emotion you get from Colman, and it's very strong, is his lost eyes. He's giving a woman the look of "take me home and hug me." He's like a lost puppy dog.

 

I actually agree with you! There's that one scene with him and Kitty in the church picking out a wedding song and he hears the one that was played at his first wedding with Paula and it reminds him of something. He doesn't exactly know what it reminds him of and it confuses him. You can so clearly see it in his face. His whole face, not only his eyes. It's so blank like he's seeing something else in place of what he is actually seeing physically in front of him. Kitty stare into his eyes deeply and starts crying unexpectedly. It made me cry! Heehee! That scene is so crucial to his "emotive" performance or "lost" character as you so wonderfully put it. I loved the way he acts like a "lost puppy dog". It makes his character of Smithy so much more lovable for me! I much prefer him as Smithy than as Charles Rainier, b/c he's a little more stuffy, even though he's still a perfect gentleman as Rainier. But smithy has always represented the sweetness of the film for me and Paula always represented the strong, yet vulnerable side of the film...I love Paula's character and especially her personality! Her personality jumps off the screen at me! She's very outgoing and not shy at all and isn't afraid to take chances and go with the flow wherever life takes her. And wherever that is, she is going to be a success, b/c she wants to be! She made it work when she suddenly had to leave with Smithy and she made it work when she became Charles' secretary even though there was so much pain in her heart. You really feel it with her! It's such a strong pain that she wants him back as he was. You just want so badly for him to remember when she sits there looking straight at him so forcefully, trying not to cry her eyes out in the process. She does it without making an effort, I don't know how she does it! It just really makes you respect her.

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Aaaaaah, I feel rather like Caligula...a thumbs UP or thumbs DOWN by the mere click of a button. I'm heady with power.

 

 

Oh my goodness! That just killed me!!

 

Thank you so much T-H. Now YOUR homework is to watch "Now, Voyager." Had you watched it already...did I not read the past coupla pages properly. Correct an old (Capricorn) goat!

 

Well now that i'm done with my homework anyway.....

 

I'm going to watch it again when i get home from School if there is still school tonight. My teacher might just cancel class, b/c it's getting really icy and its still snowing after a few hours....how unusual, I don't know yet. Yes, I have seen Now, Voyager lots of times. It's one of my top movies of Bette. I simply love her in this film. She presents a certain kind of vulnerability that isn't shown in many of her films with the exception of The Old Maid, for me. That movie literally killed me with crying all the time! Heehee! I just would like to re-watch NV, b/c I haven't seen it in a while and think I can ramble better about it with ya'll if I have it fresh in my mind or at least watching it as I ramble, which I very well might do tonight or tomorrow. I'm planning on buying the movie on DVD soon. I just have a recording of it and would like a better quality version of it, especially with my new big TV in my room! What a way to watch her and big beautiful eyes! I loooove it soooo much! Heehee!

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>Crying? CRYING?!!!! There's no crying in baseball in movies!

 

Shoot! Crying is what some movies are all about. Some because they tug at your heart. Some because you wasted two hours watching some piece of junk and some because you get to a point in life where you cry at everything you see on TV. (That is not my case, well not all the time.)

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