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The World of Alfred Hitchcock


MissGoddess
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I didn't realize 'Tippi' was so disparaged. I think she is excellent in Marnie. It's a very, very difficult role for even a thoroughly practiced actress; that such a young and inexperienced actress did so well is a testament to both the actress and the director who selected her for the role.

 

'Tippi' has a curious single-mindedness in her portrayal. It's not a layered or complex character, and that's as it should be I think because we're not privy to her subconscious motivations until Hitch chooses to strip them away. That way, we're as unaware of them as Marnie herself is. And she's so good at looking like a vulnerable child.

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"MARNIE? is by no means a romantic Hitchcock movie. I give that label to my beloved obses-

sively delirious "VERTIGO.? Now when I say it is a woman?s picture, I don?t mean like a three-hanky, tear-jerking, Davis-Crawford-Dunne-Shearer-Harding chick-flick weepie. I mean it is a Female picture; a ?what it means to be Female...? albeit a Female gone wrong.

 

What?s Female about it? Well, in its most generalized terms: luggage...hair coloring and dye...

blood...community property...jealousy...feminine wiles...pregnancy...Motherhood. Again, I sub-

mit these as the most extreme generalizations:

 

* Marnie has a nice matching set of luggage

* Jealous of the attention her mother?s neighbor?s daughter gets from Marnie?s mother

* The neighbor?s child already learns to use her feminine wiles to get attention.

* Girl talk in the Ladies Room where Marnie hides out before her next crime spree

* Out of wedlock pregnancy

* Single mother survival...

* Spot of blood on the white blouse signifying a monthly cycle

* Hair dye: washing that man right outta her hair(?) or every lustrous Clairol, Revlon hair commercial of the time

* She cannot steal what is already hers in community property

 

You think I?m stretching it? I dunno but I really got that feeling of femaleness this YouTubed time around. I'm probably not expressing my point properly.

 

THE CAST

 

TIPPI HEDREN:

 

What were they expecting maybe Eva LaGalliene??? I think Tippi Hedren gives a wonderful performance as the beautiful yet psychologically damaged Marnie. Go on, I know you want to...bring on the blondes. Go ahead, throw ?em at me: Grace Kelly, Vera Miles. Whoever. I

see Grace as too controlled and Vera as not sexy enough.

 

< Send your cards and letters to me folks:>

 

Ms. Cyn E. Mayven

c/o: Bellevue Hospital

1000 Snake Pit Road

Bedford Falls, New York 66666

 

Tippi plays Marnie as tightly wound as a Swiss watch. She has the perfect blend of hautiness, self-satisfaction and helplessness. Her voice is uniquely and simultaneously sweet and tart. She?s sexy but not in an overtly overpowering way. (Hey, don?t you call me Cine-Strutt!!)

 

Marnie is somewhat Sphinx-like. Yeah. Her face is kind of passive, blank, a mask. Perhaps some people?s problem with Tippi Hedren as this lead is b?cuz she only did one motion picture before this (a minor Hitchcock film called ?THE BIRDS.?) No one knew her. She didn?t have a screen persona familiar to audiences and folks want their old favorites back in the Hitchcock fold. I found Hedren convincing.

 

I love Marnie?s crazy existence. She leads the life of a criminal. She is closeted, secretive. She goes from town-to-town. She has several identities (who does that, other than here on the Message Board) and several social security cards. It takes ingenuity to keep her lies straight. It takes ingenuity to keep her lives straight. I like her cunning; this all takes planning. She has to keep her peripheral vision sharp to spot opportunity. She thinks quick on her feet since she?s a pathological liar. And while the dirty old business executive is lusting and eyeing her...she steals him blind!

 

?Oh Mr. Strutt, don?t you remember? She didn?t have any references at all.?

 

Ha. (If you?re reading admiration into my remarks...you?d be right!) We could see Marnie held down jobs. If she could use her skills for good instead of wrong, maybe she'd achieve some status in the business world. Her looks might've worked against her though. Would she be ta-

ken seriously...or just taken to the nearest bar for highballs and martinis after work.

 

?'Tippi' has a curious single-mindedness in her portrayal. It's not a layered or complex character, and that's as it should be I think because we're not privy to her subconscious motivations until Hitch chooses to strip them away. That way, we're as unaware of them as Marnie herself is. And she's so good at looking like a vulnerable child.? - < *MISS GODDESS* >

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you Miss. G. We only know what Marnie knows. Hitch puts us in her p.o.v. Her vulnerability is rough to watch also b?cuz she doesn?t know why she feels as she does. She?s a mystery, she?s lost. When she shrieks ?NO!? during the honeymoon sequence, she sounds like a child. When she talks about ?the colors? she?s also childlike. She should be protected...but who does she run into...the big bad (dog-gone-it he?s so handsome) wolf.

 

SEAN CONNERY:

 

Connery plays Mark Rutland. I?ve had love/hate feelings for Mark ever since I first watched this movie. Girls, it?s Sean Connery in the 1960?s. He is gorgeous. As Mark, he?s the uber / alpha male. He?s male, masculine, commanding, cruelly handsome. He takes charge and plays rough. He crushes competition. Check out how he dismisses a man who thinks he recognizes Marnie:

 

?Good for you. You?ve apologized nicely. You may go now.?

 

When the stranger approaches Marnie again, I love the stern warning Mark gives the man along with the ominous Hermann music underneath:

 

?You really are pressing your luck, old boy.?

 

What bothers me is the harsh way Mark treats her. He takes advantage of her weakness. To help her? Hmmm...I think not. She represents a challenge.

 

?Let me take Mark Rutland. His wife died at a very young age, because of some heart problems. Its very possible that Mark felt guilty about not being able to save his wife from her health problems. When he saw a troubled woman like Marnie, he tried to get her so that he could return to the point in the past where he might start afresh. He possibly wanted Marnie as his own form of a second chance to redeem after he failed to save his first wife.? - < *KONWAY* >

 

I see this very differently, Konway. I think Mark wants nothing to do with his first wife. He gives Marnie a very cynical reply re: his late wife:

 

?Nothing ever happens to a family who traditionally marries at least one heiress every other generation.?

 

I think Mark?s raison d?etre is to stalk, conquer and dominate Marnie. He practically says she?s something he?s caught, trapped. If that?s love...count me in. I mean out. OUT.

 

?For me, MARNIE is a film that diminished on second viewing. I don't hate it, but I do find it slow and dull, and the Freudian stuff does not appeal. A better actress than Tippi Hedren--Lee Remick comes immediately to mind--would have helped.? - < *KINGRAT* >

 

I find ?MARNIE? a character study of a woman who?s not really aware of why she does what she does. Hitch takes his time with that, peeling the layers of her psyche, dropping little cinematic clues for the audience; the pacing is not to everyone?s liking. I love Lee Remick, but I don?t think I can even see her in this role and b?lieve me when I tell ya, I?m a big fan. Sure there are tons of better actresses out there but I don?t necessarily think being a good actress is what?s needed for the role of Marnie. (That?s just me...and I haven?t drunk any Kool-Aid either. Grey Goose is my drink, thank you very much). My appreciation is enhanced with my repeated viewing of ?MARNIE.? I?m not saying it?s without flaws. I haven?t seen it in awhile...and I?ve had a change of heart of many a movie I used to love. But ?MARNIE? still holds my attention, and it?s mainly due to Tippi Hedren.

 

?The Divine Miss CM: I am flattered that you have such an interest in including me. My primary interest in Hitchcock, for better or worse, fades after ?Psycho.? I have seen them all but they don't hold a lot of interest for me. I don't think I have seen ?The Family Plot? since I saw it in the theater.? - < *MOVIEMAN* >

 

Divine, am I? Whoa!!! Thanx MM. Listen, don?t force yourself to watch a movie you?re not quite feeling. That doesn?t bode well for the movie. I?ve got enough love for that movie for ten people.

 

When Mark breaks it down to Marnie that he?s really being a good guy compared to what some other sexual blackmailer might do to her. OTHER??? Your honor, I rest my case. The defendant has just incriminated himself.

 

DIANE BAKER:

 

I've always liked Lil. ("There's sure to be droppage and spillage.") She's such a smartass, that Lil. She's attractive, smart, competent. She has a great wardrobe in this. She needs a job instead of just being a socialite. She kind of looks like a young Laura Bush to me. (Baker matured quite nicely when I saw her in "Silence of the Lambs." No one around me seemed to know who she was. Ugh!) She looks sad as she watches Mark and Marnie's drive away for their honeymoon. She eavesdrops. She busts Mark's chops when Marnie has a nightmare and he's not really comforting her: "That's supposed to be your department, Old Boy." (Ouch!) She throws a Hitchie monkey wrench into things by purposely inviting Strutt to the Rutland dinner party.

 

So here we go again with the blonde vs. the brunette. It's a bit of deja-vu when I think of Tippi going up against that formidable and husky-voiced brunette: Suzanne Pleshette in "THE BIRDS." In this instance, Marnie vs. Lil compete for the spoils of our Scottish stallion: Mark Rutland. Only difference is Marnie has no interest in "saddling" Mark. And Mark's not in love with Lil. He wants nothing to do with his ex-wife's sister. He probably just really sees her as a kid sister. He's not THAT kind of guy.

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I understand and agree about "MARNIE as woman's pix". I suspect my interests when it was being shown in the '60s was almost a voyeuristic "So this is what Woman might do, eh?" I'd see that same in Ava Gardner's THE KILLERS, maybe Jean Hagan's ASPHALT JUNGLE and quite a few other femme fatales before BODY HEAT made me consider doing serious background checks.

 

I too have mixed feelings about Sean's character - he isn't using a club to conk her on the head with, but he's dragging Marnie around, all the same - yet Brutus-Caveman is there at the end, insisting they'll visit again, arm around her, protective in this Ends-Justifies-Means notion that wife-beaters have used forever.

 

I still think Diane Baker's character is somehow 'wrong' in this film, like there's a missing scene, a missing explanation, somewhere on the cutting-room floor.

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SPOILERS

 

There were 3 scenes that were deleted. Diane Baker was in all of these 3 scenes. One scene was where Lil tells Marnie to leave. Hitchcock's wife Alma Reville didn't like the dialogue written for this scene. And she asked Jay Presson Allen if she could rewrite this scene. But Jay Presson Allen refused. I agree with Alma. The dialogue was very weak. The scene would have ended up in the film if it was rewritten. Jay Presson Allen later agreed that the scene should be cut.

 

In the script, Mark's first wife tells Lil to look after Mark after she dies. Unfortunately, this was mentioned in the deleted scene where Lil tells Marnie to leave.

 

In my opinion, Lil is a character who can survive. But Marnie is a character who gets into trouble again and again. That's why she needs Mark.

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Interesting discussion, everyone. These are my impressions, though I admit I have not really analyzed the film too deeply in all the time I have watched it (which is at least a hundred times).

 

I love Mark Rutland and I love his clear, direct manner and find his bossiness to be amusing and cute. I don't think he's off his bean about anything except what I see in many men: his attraction to a screwed up woman. In the most practical terms, he'd be WAY better off with Lil. She's at least normal and loves him, but no, that's boring, and as CineMaven wisely pointed out, not much of a challenge (the same can be said of Lil, though---why does she love someone she cannot have? Because he's a challenge?).

 

Marnie is, to begin with, something Mark's "caught". I don't see this as "sinister", but rather banal and ordinary behavior on the part of men since time began. What makes up for it is that Mark is so good to her through it all. He doesn't just say the words, he does what he can to help her emotionally, and so ultimately she's not just a "trophy" he's bagged...he's proven himself committed to her happiness. Not many hunters care about their "prey" after they've captured it. So he wasn't such a "predator" after all. By the end of the movie, Marnie has put her trust in Mark's hands and I don't feel he will betray her.

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Maven,

 

> ?Good for you. You?ve apologized nicely. You may go now.?

 

> When the stranger approaches Marnie again, I love the stern warning Mark gives the man along with the ominous Hermann music underneath:

 

> ?You really are pressing your luck, old boy.?

 

 

Your response to that scene in Marnie is so interesting to me, because I never thought about anyone feeling that way about Mark's behavior. I feel the exact opposite. I love Mark's rudness to that jerk, it delights me to no end how he sends him packing. I cant think of about 300,000 guys I wish I had someone handle that well for me.

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*"MARNIE? is by no means a romantic Hitchcock movie. I give that label to my beloved obses-*

*sively delirious "VERTIGO.? Now when I say it is a woman?s picture, I don?t mean like a three-hanky, tear-jerking, Davis-Crawford-Dunne-Shearer-Harding chick-flick weepie. I mean it is a Female picture; a ?what it means to be Female...? albeit a Female gone wrong.*

 

Hey Cinie-T!!

 

You know, I always thought Marnie was a Hitch romantic movie, but in a different way then his others were. It, by no means, is a mushy romantic movie with lots of cuddling and kissing, but it has that connection between Sean Connery trying to find out what is bothering and festering in Marnie's mind and Marnie trying to find herself in this "dark" world that she can't figure out. I always thought she was clingy in a sort of way to him, because she was looking for security, even though she was still scared of him at the same time. She felt a lack of it in her life and she wanted to reach out for it and was trying her best to get it from him. Am I way off here?

 

Edited by: butterscotchgreer on May 5, 2010 1:01 PM

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?I too have mixed feelings about Sean's character - he isn't using a club to conk her on the head with, but he's dragging Marnie around, all the same - yet Brutus-Caveman is there at the end, insisting they'll visit again, arm around her, protective in this Ends-Justifies-Means notion that wife-beaters have used forever.? * < OLLIE T > *

 

Well well well, Texas T. Hi there. I?m loathe to breathe Sean Connery in the same sentence as Brutus/Bluto, but there you have it. For most of the movie he?s kind of harsh & brutal with Marnie, forcing his conjugal rights, forcing her into a mock therapy session and forcing her to work on SATURDAY!! only to, at the end, unlock the sweet mystery of life. But I might have a shade of sympathy b?cuz like Rhett Butler, Mark chases a woman who doesn?t quite care for him as revealed when Marnie says to Mark:

 

?I'M sick? Well take a look at yourself Old Dear. You?re so hot to play Mental Health Week what about your tAlk about dream worlds. you?ve got a pathological fix on a woma that?s not only an admitted criminal but who screams if yo come near her. So what about your dreams

Daddy Dear ??

 

No, on second thought Rhett Butler was much nicer to Scarlett than Mark was to Marnie.

 

?I still think Diane Baker's character is somehow 'wrong' in this film, like there's a missing scene, a missing explanation, somewhere on the cutting-room floor.? * < OLLIE T > *

 

You know, I don?t get that impression with her. She?s the typical plot device...the obstacle in their happiness. She throws monkey wrenches. Are you not happy with Baker being cast, or is it that there?s no room for Lil on the psychiatrist?s couch???

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BUTTERSCOTCHGREER writes: "You know, I always thought Marnie was a Hitch romantic movie, but in a different way then his others were. It, by no means, is a mushy romantic movie with lots of cuddling and kissing..."

 

Hi Baby T., Well...you got that right. Nothing mushy in this movie. I think this is Hitch's take on psychiatry cloaked in this plot.

 

"...but it has that connection between Sean Connery trying to find out what is bothering and festering in Marnie's mind and Marnie trying to find herself in this "dark" world that she can't figure out."

 

I might have been a bit harsh on Mark. I tell ya I go backward and forward on his character b'cuz his virility is pretty potent for me and I'm kind of forgiving that way. I might have even been trying to be a little politically correct. (Hang my head in shame for not being my true honest self). He was trying to help her figure out what was wrong, so he could have a whole woman and secondly, so she could be a whole person.

 

"I always thought she was clingy in a sort of way to him, because she was looking for security, even though she was still scared of him at the same time. She felt a lack of it in her life and she wanted to reach out for it and we trying to best to get it from him. Am I way off here?"

 

You're not way off here, Baby T. These are your thoughts and opinions. I disagree though. I never found Marnie clingy to Mark. That gal was ready to bolt a couple of times in the movie. She wanted to freshen up...she wanted to drown in the pool...she changed from Edith Head gown to Mrs. Peel black and was packing to run away. I believe Marnie knew she was lacking "something" but I think Marnie thought she could take care of herself and it would work out. I don't think she was trying to reach out for anything but cold hard cash. She felt she didn't need anything else (other than her Mom's love) to make things better. She thought she was going fine as she was...the only thing is she got caught.

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Hi Baby T., Well...you got that right. Nothing mushy in this movie. I think this is Hitch's take on psychiatry cloaked in this plot.

 

I second that motion! This is why I maybe should have waited to see Marnie until i was older than 11 years old. I didn't understand any of it like i do now and I still don't understand parts of it. Heehee! You need to take a psych 101 class just to pick apart this movie. :D

 

I might have been a bit harsh on Mark. I tell ya I go backward and forward on his character b'cuz his virility is pretty potent for me and I'm kind of forgiving that way. I might have even been trying to be a little politically correct. (Hang my head in shame for not being my true honest self). He was trying to help her figure out what was wrong, so he could have a whole woman and secondly, so she could be a whole person.

 

I don't think it's that you were harsh on Mark, it's just that you saw a side of his character that you were focusing solely on and going with it, but he does have a couple sides that are extremely complex, just like Marnie does. I think everyone goes back and forth with his character, because frankly, sometimes i don't understand what he is trying to do. HOWEVER, i did understand the scenes where he noticed little things and put the pieces together about her life before he met her and was trying to figure out how to fix the broken ones. I think it was because he wanted her to love him the way he loved her. They had a different kind of love that wasn't exactly transparent...it was more like opaque. heehee!

 

I mean they couldn't get really close without her freaking out and he really struggled with it. She was very childish in this way and in many other ways, because she had a very haunting childhood that even she couldn't fully understand and I think that's why I said she was clingy to him. I mean I know she almost bolted on him a couple times, but that was out of her fright. I think she stayed with him, because to a point she wanted desperately to feel free or her memories and dark life of crime subconsciously.

 

You're not way off here, Baby T. These are your thoughts and opinions. I disagree though. I never found Marnie clingy to Mark. That gal was ready to bolt a couple of times in the movie. She wanted to freshen up...she wanted to drown in the pool...she changed from Edith Head gown to Mrs. Peel black and was packing to run away. I believe Marnie knew she was lacking "something" but I think Marnie thought she could take care of herself and it would work out. I don't think she was trying to reach out for anything but cold hard cash. She felt she didn't need anything else (other than her Mom's love) to make things better. She thought she was going fine as she was...the only thing is she got caught.

 

well i see your point and you're probably right, She "thought" she could take care of herself, but Mark knew she couldn't without getting herself killed first.

 

What exactly do you think Marnie knew she was lacking in her life?

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?I second that motion! This is why I maybe should have waited to see Marnie until i was older than 11 years old. I didn't understand any of it like i do now and I still don't understand parts of it. Heehee! You need to take a psych 101 class just to pick apart this movie.? :D

 

Heavens to Butterscotch, you don?t want to do that. You?ll ruin the enjoyment of the movie if you pick it apart psychologically. B?lieve me, I had film classes in college that would just ruin a film.

 

?I mean I know she almost bolted on him a couple times, but that was out of her fright. I think she stayed with him, because to a point she wanted desperately to feel free or her memories and dark life of crime subconsciously.?

 

I see what you?re saying and agree. If she were quiet enough, she might have truly escaped Mark. So why didn?t she? She was stealthy and cunning enough to escape her other financial victims. She ultimately wanted the help...his help.

 

?What exactly do you think Marnie knew she was lacking in her life??

 

I believe on some level Marnie knew something was not quite right with how she went about doing things. Her life of stealing, having many identities, moving from town-to-town, not quite having her Mother?s love (?why do you always move away from me??) she didn?t know how to fix it, but she knew it wasn?t right. You know how we human beans are...

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Afternoon, Miss G. I knew it. I knew in my clunky brain that I might not have been making myself clear. When I mentioned this about Sean Connery?s Mark Rutland:

 

?Connery plays Mark Rutland. I?ve had love/hate feelings for Mark ever since I first watched this movie. Girls, it?s Sean Connery in the 1960?s. He is gorgeous. As Mark, he?s the uber / alpha male. He?s male, masculine, commanding, cruelly handsome. He takes charge and plays rough. He crushes competition. Check out how he dismisses a man who thinks he recognizes Marnie...?

 

I was using those as ?plusses?, as items on the ?pro? side of him. I love guys who?ll take charge in my favor, fight some battles, be the blocker to help me get through things; lead the way...beat up the bad guys for me. Those are good thing about Mark. I loved the way he dismissed the guy:

 

"Now why would any young lady want to pull your leg." Ow!!!

 

?Marnie is, to begin with, something Mark's "caught". I don't see this as "sinister", but rather banal and ordinary behavior on the part of men since time began. What makes up for it is that Mark is so good to her through it all. He doesn't just say the words, he does what he can to help her emotionally, and so ultimately she's not just a "trophy" he's bagged...he's proven himself committed to her happiness. Not many hunters care about their "prey" after they've captured it. So he wasn't such a "predator" after all. By the end of the movie, Marnie has put her trust in Mark's hands and I don't feel he will betray her.?

 

He won't betray her. He does love her. She was resistant about going with him to see her mother. I just go back and forth with him. His manner is so gruff with her, but he is doing things to help her. (Ha! One man's 'gruffness' is another man's 'directness'). Mark could have thrown Marnie to the wolves (the cops) and be done with it. But he didn?t. Something pinches me a bit about him ?marrying? her though; but I do see he is trying to help her. Sigh! He's just one tall dark handsome virile intervention, ain't he.

 

There are a couple of lines and line readings that I love and wait for (and say in unison) in ?MARNIE.?

* ?Oh Mr. Strutt don?cha remember? She didn?t have any references at all.?

by the pre-Debi Mazar nasal-sounding, look-a-like actress. Hmmmm, how?d that secretary get the job.

* Oh Forio, if you want to bite somebody, bite me.?

* ?We were poor. We were grindingly poor.?

Wasn?t that cleaning lady also the lady in ?The Big Heat? Didn't she help Glenn Ford identify one of the bad guys?

* ?Alright. Lets try again. Lets back up and see if you can turn that Mt. Everest of manure into a few facts.?

* ?I?ve told you I?ve never been married...no lovers, no steadies no beaus, no gentleman callers, nothing!!?

WheW!! Is that clear enuf. A virgin...a frozen asset. In fact, her vehement replies indicates that its much much worse.

* ?Oh men. You say no thanks to one of them and bingo you?re a candidate for the funny farm. It would be hilarious if it weren?t pathetic.

I like when Marnie tries to subtly shift of gears to get out of danger. But Mark?s on to her, and he?s not letting go.

 

She looks very fetching in her black riding outfit.

* ?Whaddya think you?re talkin? about. Comin? into my house like this talkin' about my ack-sident.?

Ha! I love hearing Louise Latham sound like Paul Lynde with that line.

 

Do you think there's anything to it, about the femaleness of "MARNIE"??

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HI T-Mave,

 

>

> I was using those as plusses, as items on the pro side of him. I love guys wholl take charge in my favor, fight some battles, be the blocker to help me get through things; lead the way...beat up the bad guys for me. Those are good thing about Mark. I loved the way he dismissed the guy:

>

> "Now why would any young lady want to pull your leg." Ow!!!

>

 

Understood. I thought the guy's reactions were hilariuos. "I said I thought I recognized her,' he says with that "attitude".

 

> He won't betray her. He does love her. She was resistant about going with him to see her mother. I just go back and forth with him. His manner is so gruff with her, but he is doing things to help her. (Ha! One man's 'gruffness' is another man's 'directness'). Mark could have thrown Marnie to the wolves (the cops) and be done with it. But he didnt. Something pinches me a bit about him marrying her though; but I do see he is trying to help her. Sigh! He's just one tall dark handsome virile intervention, ain't he.

>

 

HA!! I never thought of him that way but that's excellent. You do have a way with words.

 

> There are a couple of lines and line readings that I love and wait for (and say in unison) in MARNIE.

 

Oh you do that, too??! I know just what you mean! i can hear the dialogue from all those lines so distinctly...they're etched in my brain and I can't imagine anyone else saying them the way those actors did.

 

Here's another: "Insurance is only pronounced Insurance in the South."

 

> Ha! I love hearing Louise Latham sound like Paul Lynde with that line.

>

> Do you think there's anything to it, about the femaleness of "MARNIE"??

 

Oh my goodness... I never thought of Paul Lynde but now I'll never be able to forget him when I hear that line...

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Heavens to Butterscotch, you don?t want to do that. You?ll ruin the enjoyment of the movie if you pick it apart psychologically. B?lieve me, I had film classes in college that would just ruin a film.

 

I was just being silly. Heehee! That friend of mine from my campus is taking a film appreciation class and he thinks I know more than his teacher does and says he butchers westerns and musicals in particular for some odd reason. Goodness. I don't even want to know what he would say about Marnie. Nobody messes with Marnie! :D Heehee!

 

I see what you?re saying and agree. If she were quiet enough, she might have truly escaped Mark. So why didn?t she? She was stealthy and cunning enough to escape her other financial victims. She ultimately wanted the help...his help.

 

Thank you! That's ultimately what I wanted to say! That's how she wanted his help, she kept in contact with him instead of doing it the other way around like her other "financial victims". Very nicely put, CinemAva!

 

I believe on some level Marnie knew something was not quite right with how she went about doing things. Her life of stealing, having many identities, moving from town-to-town, not quite having her Mother?s love (?why do you always move away from me??) she didn?t know how to fix it, but she knew it wasn?t right. You know how we human beans are...

 

Oh yes! I'm with you here! I don't think Marnie enjoyed her life of stealing; she definitely didn't understand it. She knew she needed someone, something to stabilize herself, she just didn't exactly know what it was she needed at first.

 

I really agree with what you and April were saying about how Tippi played this part. I don't know why people say she was Hitch's worse blonde, but I really liked her in The Birds and Marnie, especially Marnie. I thought her emotions were perfectly displayed through her scared facade. She made her character so believable for me. She can make you cry out of pity for her, she really can.

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Perhaps Sir Alfred should have filmed Marnie Had a Little Lamb, but he didn't,

so we're stuck with the rather unpleasant subject matter of the film as it is. If the

characters were worth serious consideration, I'd have to say most of them are

morally suspect in one way or another, but this being just a movie, it's not all that

important. Hitch wanted to expose the occasionally bleak reality underneath

the superficial, normal facade of everyday life, a bit of the old transgressiveness,

that something in the shadows that usually doesn't see the light of day. He did go a

bit overboard with the Freudian thing, but that doesn't keep the film from having a

certain far-fetched bravura, though I don't think it's really up to his 1950's movies

that have similar themes. Too much of the been there, done that.

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*Konway87* - thanks much for those. The DYING WIFE SCENE explains why Diane Baker's character takes on the "jilted" look - it's not just some longing for Sean C, but an oath to the dying wife, too. I've heard of this scene a few times and think it might have made a very, very interesting prolog. Maybe never intro'd, never explained. Just play it before the credits role, then switch to Marnie and let all of us rewatching this film recall seeing Diane Baker very early in the film. Woulda been a treat.

 

MissG's *"INTERESTING DISCUSSION"* paragraphs are littered with additional understandings.

 

"I love his clear, direct manner and find his bossiness to be amusing and cute. I don't think he's off his bean about anything except what I see in many men: his attraction to a screwed up woman..." Yes, the Nurse Nightingale Effect strikes all genders.

 

But MissG goes on to explain my attraction to this film's characters in her final paragraph, beginning with:

 

"Marnie is, to begin with, something Mark's 'caught'..."

 

I'm ashamed to edit these passages for brevity, because MissG's stated all of my senses and attractions for this film and its characters in them.

 

And stated them perfectly. Yes, this is exactly why I can watch this film instead of a wife-beater's film. He has CAUGHT her, not clubbed her over the head and dragged her back to his cave. Well, not exactly. Trapped her, caught her. But not clubbed her. And he shows his caring, and SHE shows her astute understanding of HIS thrill and passion: trying to help her even if it means he gets to play head-shrink.

 

Butterscotch brings up ROMANCE again, and I have to admit, all of these factors - one person 'saving' another (whether it's Knight In Shining Armor or Florence Nightingale) is a core issue with romance. I think MARNIE is a strong romance.

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"thanks much for those. The DYING WIFE SCENE explains why Diane Baker's character takes on the "jilted" look - it's not just some longing for Sean C, but an oath to the dying wife, too. I've heard of this scene a few times and think it might have made a very, very interesting prolog. Maybe never intro'd, never explained. Just play it before the credits role, then switch to Marnie and let all of us rewatching this film recall seeing Diane Baker very early in the film. Woulda been a treat." - < OLLIE >

 

I'm kind of glad we don't see that scene. Sometimes with writing less is more. Too much. If you think Diane Baker's Lil is after Mark to keep an oath to her dying sister...well, you don't know wimmin!

--

 

?I really agree with what you and April were saying about how Tippi played this part. I don't know why people say she was Hitch's worse blonde, but I really liked her in The Birds and Marnie, especially Marnie. I thought her emotions were perfectly displayed through her scared facade. She made her character so believable for me. She can make you cry out of pity for her, she really can.? - < BUTTERSCOTCH GREER >

 

For me, I watch the movie for 'Tippi' Hedren. It's a difficult part and I believe she pulls it off.

--

 

Miss G. I love the insurance line. And he with his Scottish accent. Other moments I like are:

 

I like how she turns her head to the wall like a petulant child here: ?There?s nothing to talk out. I?ve told you how I feel, I?ll feel the same way tomorrow and the day after and the day after that.?

 

?Oh KIND!!!?

 

I love the way Marnie wipes her brow with her arm after Mark leaves her in the State room. Dang, the girl broke out in a cold sweat. She would not be so lucky in the next scene.

 

I love Baker?s green robe. She looked very classy.

 

?But they don?t put you in jail for being a fool. I?m not the one the cops are after. Not yet, and I don?t intend to be, not if there?s anything I can do to prevent it. Perhaps you Madam, but not me.?

 

The word ?Madam? to me cuts like a dagger.

 

Exactly what ?help? is Mark giving Marnie when he ?forces? the situation on the honeymoon? Is that being a helpmate or is that being your ?typical male???

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Butterscotch brings up ROMANCE again, and I have to admit, all of these factors - one person 'saving' another (whether it's Knight In Shining Armor or Florence Nightingale) is a core issue with romance. I think MARNIE is a strong romance.

 

Hey Ollie darlin'!

 

Now did you really expect me not to say something? Heehee! Thank you, i do think it is a strong romance, just a little different than Cary Grant showing up in silvery shining armor for Myrna Loy in Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer. In this case, Mark showed up and "caught" her as you and MissG so delicately put it. :D But you're both right. I think that actually adds more romance to it oddly enough.

 

And you know what? I don't think Marnie's was the only one to get saved in this movie. I think Mark got blown away by her even though he was the one trying to make her whole again. What would happen if Marnie actually made him realize something about life? It's not as he thought it was.

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Love this discussion guys!

 

I love Marnie, but it came to me slowly. I didn't like it all the first time I saw it. I thought it was a little silly and kind of shallow, but I kept watching it every time it was on for some reason. Now I realize love it and I find a LOT more to it than I originally thought.

 

Mark has to contrast with what Marnie thinks of other men. Either they are evil fiends like Bruce Dern (on an unconscious level) or they are weak conniving money grubbing, boring idiots like Strutt (on a conscious level). Marnie needs Mark to show her there are men who are virile, who can also be nice, honest and strong. He shows her that having ....uh.... that being married is a good thing. The brutality he shows is a mistake he must make - if he is not a threat to her or there is no movie. First of all, how could they show how broken she is, unless he threatens her in that way? He is a good guy who wants to behave normally. That must be shown. He also needs to be stronger than she is - more on that in a minute. Mainly, she must learn that there is a difference between a man taking advantage, and a man who loves her wanting to make love.

 

And I'm sorry to put it this way, but Marnie wanted it - she does want someone to love her..... to touch her - she only thinks she doesn't. She doesn't want to be handled - but she does want to be loved. That scene on the boat is a metaphor for a different kind of closeness, for mental intimacy, shared experience. After he saves her, I feel something different in her reply - "The point was to kill myself, not feed the fishes." She is almost jocular with him... she lets her defences down just a bit . They have shared something, and MArk is the only one in the world who KNOWS her, except her mother. He doesn't recoil from her, knowing that, and she doesn't die from Mark's touch.... maybe there is the glimmering of feeling close to him. That is why she runs and tries to kill herself.

 

She is a runaway horse, just like Forio. She thinks she'd rather die than be "caught" - loved. But what Marnie thinks she wants and what she really wants are two different things. She wants to feel closeness and intimacy with someone (like her mother) desperately. She is afraid of it because she wants it so badly. Wanting has never gotten Marnie anything. So she pretends she doesn't want or need anything, the longer she pretends, the more she really believes it.

 

She doesn't need anything - but she keeps taking things - proving that her subconscious does need something, something she is not getting. But money cannot replace her mother's love.

 

I like Marnie because like all of us, she sees her self one way, but is actually almost completely different from that self image. She is the opposite of what she wants to APPEAR to be - strong and in control. Her obsession has got ahold of her, she doesn't actually have control of her actions. She runs.... she steals....She is aware on some level that Mark can really see her and she wants him to help her be soft, she wants to let go.... but she will fight it with everything she has. Marnie NEEDS Mark, because he is the only one stronger than she is, who can give her what she truly wants - a man who she can respect, and someone who won't take her at face value.

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It really IS a great discussion.

 

Butterscotchgreer wrote: I think Mark got blown away by her even though he was the one trying to make her whole again. What would happen if Marnie actually made him realize something about life? It's not as he thought it was.

 

Wow. I think you've got something there, Baby T. I think Marnie really shakes Mark up. He's a "silver spoon" lad, used to getting what he wants all his life no doubt. Then he lost his wife. I think he hates to lose anything he loves and that's why whenever Marnie moves to leave him, it's flips him out. I think it's a little more than just the male challenge to pursue the female...it's the frustration and fear he's going to lose her again. But that's just a surmise, really. Your words there prompted me to speculate on his motivations that way.

 

Jackie! Sensational! I absolutely loved what you wrote and I do so agree. Maybe you've finally sealed for me why I've been fascinated by Marnie all my life, and always identified with her on some level. Her relationship with her mother, her "hiding", etc. Oh dear! Calling Dr. Bronxie! I think I need a session! :D

 

CineMarnie: I forgot to answer your question earlier about the "femaleness" of the film...I think you are right. Hitch liked to explore female characters, usually in a dark way. He knew women, just as men, harbor emotional demons and abberations, and in his time I bet this was a rather "new" and probably controversial theme.

 

The two main areas of interest in the film for me are Marnie's relationship with her mother---I can so identify----and Marnie's emotional "cage" (for she was in a prison all her own long before Mark caught her, by God, and kept her.) Which brings me to your second question, about the "rape" scene. I think the whole "force" angle was purely a cinematic device to save time and ramp up the tension. Something had to break through Marnie's well-fortified walls, if you'll forgive the analogy. If I remember correctly---that scene is not in the original story, but Hitch insist Jay Presson Allen write it into the script, against her judgement.

 

On the surface, yes, it was a brutal act of male frustration on Mark's part, but I think it also functions to break down Marnie's defenses. Hitch has to find a visual way to show an emotional state of change. In The Birds, he used, well, birds---literally breaking down Melanie Daniels' well-ordered, empty existence. I don't think he's recommending violence toward women with these scenes---after all, the men in his movies go through just as terrific agonies, man-hunts and various attempts on their previously well-constructed, placid lives---I believe he just chooses these visual devices to externalize emotional traumas and to create the greatest impact of shock on the audience. Because in the end, that's his stock and trade: suspense and thrills.

 

That scene even relates to the "femaleness" you wrote about---because Hitch is playing on one of woman's deepest fears with that scene. Disturbing as it is to us even now, imagine how it must have affected audiences back then. As you say, we're in Marnie's P.O.V. and at the same time, by the way he shot the scene, he balances it with Mark's P.O.V. He's really messing with our minds! He was going for a big "shock" to make us (and Marnie) shaken and stirred.

 

I may be way off with all of this, my mind is wandering, but that's how I see it.

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shaken and stirred--- giggle. :D

 

Once again, part of my original post disappeared.

 

It said something like,

 

_Scotchie_ =

 

>I think Mark got blown away by her even though he was the one trying to make her whole again. What would happen if Marnie actually made him realize something about life? It's not as he thought it was.

 

 

You are brilliant! While Marnie got someone stronger than she, someone who could actually see HER, not just the facade she put forward, Mark got something he never had before - a woman who was a complete mystery to him. He always got what he wanted, especially women. He is _always_ in control, but Marnie rocks him.... he isn't in charge of her, and worse, he isn't in charge of himself when he's with her. He's got to reign it in. In fact, I'd say MArk and MArnie are exactly the same - they are both thrown for a loop by the other. They both gain a purpose in their life when they find each other.

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SPOILERS

 

I don't know if anyone noticed this. The character resemblance is common in Hitchcock. I thought I should post this information.

 

As you know, Original Hitchcock Script for The Paradine Case was never used. Original Hitchcock Script was written by James Bridie. He also wrote the screenplay for Under Capricorn. And Ben Hecht contributed additional dialogue. In this Hitchcock script, Mrs. Paradine resembled Anthony Keane's wife Gay Keane. Simon Flaquer (Charles Coburn in the film) points this out in Hitchcock Script. And Anthony Keane (Gregory Peck in the film) becomes attracted to Mrs. Paradine. Although Anthony Keane and his Gay Keane lived happily, still their marriage wasn't successful. Keane was inferior to his wife. And they didn't have any children.

 

So Keane's attraction to Mrs. Paradine may have been his desire for a second chance to achieve what he failed. I was wondering if Hitchcock was reusing this idea in Marnie. But I am not sure.

 

This idea of character resemblance (invented by Hitchcock and James Bridie) was later used in many of Hitchcock films. In Rope, the physical resemblance between David Kentley and Kenneth Lawrence. In Under Capricorn, the resemblance between the characters. For Example, the resemblance between Samson Flusky and Winter. In Strangers on a Train, the resemblance between the first wife of Guy Haines (Farley Granger) and Barbara (Patricia Hitchcock). In I Confess, the resemblance between "Alma" Keller (Dolly Haas) and Hitchcock's wife "Alma" Reville. In The Trouble with Harry, Harry mistakenly thinks that Miss Gravely (Mildred Natwick) is Jennifer Rogers (Shirley MacLaine).

 

We see this idea again in films like The Wrong Man and Vertigo.

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SPOILERS

 

I don't know if anyone noticed this. The character resemblance is common in Hitchcock. I thought I should post this information.

 

As you know, Original Hitchcock Script for The Paradine Case was never used. Original Hitchcock Script was written by James Bridie. He also wrote the screenplay for Under Capricorn. And Ben Hecht contributed additional dialogue. In this Hitchcock script, Mrs. Paradine resembled Anthony Keane's wife Gay Keane. Simon Flaquer (Charles Coburn in the film) points this out in Hitchcock Script. And Anthony Keane (Gregory Peck in the film) becomes attracted to Mrs. Paradine. Although Anthony Keane and his Gay Keane lived happily, still their marriage wasn't successful. Keane was inferior to his wife. And they didn't have any children.

 

So Keane's attraction to Mrs. Paradine may have been his desire for a second chance to achieve what he failed. I was wondering if Hitchcock was reusing this idea in Marnie. But I am not sure.

 

This idea of character resemblance (invented by Hitchcock and James Bridie) was later used in many of Hitchcock films. In Rope, the physical resemblance between David Kentley and Kenneth Lawrence. In Under Capricorn, the resemblance between the characters. For Example, the resemblance between Samson Flusky and Winter. In Strangers on a Train, the resemblance between the first wife of Guy Haines (Farley Granger) and Barbara (Patricia Hitchcock). In I Confess, the resemblance between "Alma" Keller (Dolly Haas) and Hitchcock's wife "Alma" Reville. In The Trouble with Harry, Harry mistakenly thinks that Miss Gravely (Mildred Natwick) is Jennifer Rogers (Shirley MacLaine).

 

We see this idea again in films like The Wrong Man and Vertigo.

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Wow. I think you've got something there, Baby T. I think Marnie really shakes Mark up. He's a "silver spoon" lad, used to getting what he wants all his life no doubt. Then he lost his wife. I think he hates to lose anything he loves and that's why whenever Marnie moves to leave him, it's flips him out. I think it's a little more than just the male challenge to pursue the female...it's the frustration and fear he's going to lose her again. But that's just a surmise, really. Your words there prompted me to speculate on his motivations that way.

 

Yay! That's what I mean! He was a "spoiled" person in life and when he met Marnie, all the sudden that changed the way he perceived things. That has to be the reason he got so darn angry when she tried to leave him all those times. It makes perfect sense.

 

I really love Marnie, but not only for Tippi. I love Sean Connery in this movie and I really pay attention to the way he displays emotion within his character. Mark is important and he has some hidden secrets that I think he was afraid to put forth in front of Marnie with her own emotional distress, but when she was acting out, he waqs reacting to it all and you can see the reason he reacts the way he does. They taught each other such different things in life and I love how they react with each other. I think that is truly the hidden message within the movie.

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You are brilliant! While Marnie got someone stronger than she, someone who could actually see HER, not just the facade she put forward, Mark got something he never had before - a woman who was a complete mystery to him. He always got what he wanted, especially women. He is always in control, but Marnie rocks him.... he isn't in charge of her, and worse, he isn't in charge of himself when he's with her. He's got to reign it in. In fact, I'd say MArk and MArnie are exactly the same - they are both thrown for a loop by the other. They both gain a purpose in their life when they find each other.

 

Hey Wendy darlin'!

 

How interestingly said! :) He WAS in fact in charge of everything in reach of himself and, BOOM, when they met, he lost it, because he didn't know how to handle it, her, or himself in this whole situation. They both got a reality check! heehee!

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