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The World of Alfred Hitchcock


MissGoddess
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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Good evening, Bronxilla -- Lewton was an uncredited story editor on REBECCA.

>

> I never knew that! I wonder if Hitch ever met with him or if Lewton was a Selznick brownie, at that point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There actually does seem to be evidence that Hitchcock and Val crossed paths often during their lifetime. I remember reading about a painting that inspired Lewton to envision the look of ISLE OF THE DEAD, and supposedly Hitchcock used some of that surrealism in VERTIGO. I think Selznick's manic energy and ego wouldn't have meshed well with Lewton.

>

> I've always thought these two directors shared a fascination (and sympathy with) psychologically fragile females.

>

> Now that's a fascinating observation. That's terrific. Lewton certainly showcases woman and her hauntings. I always thought of Hitch placing the focus more on man but, just in the past month, I've noticed more of a female angle. So I believe you are right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I still can't figure out if Hitchcock is a misogynist or not, but he sometimes seems to me to identify with the woman as much (or perhaps even more) as with the man. In certain films he reminds me of a "woman's director" (like Cukor) Watching REBECCA, SUSPICION, SPELLBOUND, NOTORIOUS, UNDER CAPRICORN, MARNIE, just for starters, I tend to believe this more and more.

 

Edited by: Bronxgirl48 on May 11, 2010 5:41 PM

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"I think Selznick's manic energy and ego wouldn't have meshed well with Lewton."

 

Ha, it eventually didn't mesh well with Hitchcock, either.

 

"I still can't figure out if Hitchcock is a misogynist or not, but he sometimes seems to me to identify with the woman as much (or perhaps even more) as with the man. In certain films he reminds me of a "woman's director" (like Cukor)..."

 

I think Hitch loved, supremely loved, women. I also think he was absolutely scared of them, and controlled that fear...that "anxiety" if you will...by being a director and controlling their "actions." Think of Hitch and think of Hitch and who he picked: Eva Marie...Doris...Kim...Tippi...Vera...

Janet...Ingrid...Carole...Madeleine.

 

Hmmm...

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I think Hitch loved, supremely loved, women. I also think he was absolutely scared of them, and controlled that fear...that "anxiety" if you will...by being a director and controlling their "actions." Think of Hitch and think of Hitch and who he picked: Eva Marie...Doris...Kim...Tippi...Vera...

Janet...Ingrid...Carole...Madeleine.

 

I completely agree with you, Lively Gal. I certainly believe Hitch adored women and that he was afraid of them. You can usually tell a misogynist by their tone. I don't think Hitch ever had a hateful tone with woman. If anything, Hitch seemed to have a problem with his mother.

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I still can't figure out if Hitchcock is a misogynist or not, but he sometimes seems to me to identify with the woman as much (or perhaps even more) as with the man. In certain films he reminds me of a "woman's director" (like Cukor) Watching REBECCA, SUSPICION, SPELLBOUND, NOTORIOUS, UNDER CAPRICORN, MARNIE, just for starters, I tend to believe this more and more.

 

I think Hitch "got" woman, at least certain kinds of women, particularly those of the 40s and 50s. I believe Hitch did a very nice job of shining a spotlight on female fears and desires with men. Does Hitch tackle female issues outside of man? Not so much.

 

I find Grace Kelly's "Francie" and "Lisa Carol" to be wonderfully feminine characters.

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Hey there, Little Red Buick -- Your discussion of Marnie/Cat People is really inspired! In fact, your posts on Marnie have been very interesting and some of the best writing you have done on the boards I think.

 

Awwww, thank you. That was sweet of you to say. I'm actually not a huge fan of Marnie, the film. It's a very heavy, serious film for Hitch. That alone makes it fascinating. But in terms of entertainment, it's not my speed.

 

The only difference between them I can think of is that in Marnie, there is an explanation for Marnie's fear, whereas in Cat People, there is no explanation - there is never even an attempt to explain. There is also no attempt to show whether it is all in her mind, or if there really is some curse. Of course, I like that kind of open endedness. We really only see Irena through the eyes of Ollie and Judd, i, e, "regular people". But somehow we know better than they. We know there is something else, not some psychological problem at work..... we empathize with Irena. I love it so.

 

That was terrific, Spunky. You're right, we're left to wonder with Cat People. Like you, I love that and I love the film. It's one of my all-time favorites. One difference I feel with Marnie and Irena is that Irena is absolutely dying over her not being able to consumate her love for Ollie. It's ripping her apart. Marnie, on the other hand, wants no part of Mark. She'd rather he leave her alone. At least, that's what she thinks she wants, as you wisely pointed out.

 

It's almost as if Marnie and Irena start and end at the opposite ends of frigidity.

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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> I still can't figure out if Hitchcock is a misogynist or not, but he sometimes seems to me to identify with the woman as much (or perhaps even more) as with the man. In certain films he reminds me of a "woman's director" (like Cukor) Watching REBECCA, SUSPICION, SPELLBOUND, NOTORIOUS, UNDER CAPRICORN, MARNIE, just for starters, I tend to believe this more and more.

>

> I think Hitch "got" woman, at least certain kinds of women, particularly those of the 40s and 50s. I believe Hitch did a very nice job of shining a spotlight on female fears and desires with men. Does Hitch tackle female issues outside of man? Not so much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hitchcock took a phrase I think from a French director -- "torture the women!", which works in Hitchcock's films in a psychologically voyeuristic way (in order to probe the woman's psyche) and not just merely as (perverse) male fantasy. Or maybe...both?

>

> I find Grace Kelly's "Francie" and "Lisa Carol" to be wonderfully feminine characters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree about LIsa, but I guess I'll have to take another look at Francie.

 

Edited by: Bronxgirl48 on May 12, 2010 12:59 AM

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Hitchcock took a phrase I think from a French director -- "torture the women!", which works in Hitchcock's films in a psychologically voyeuristic way and not just merely as male fantasy. Or maybe...both?

 

What Hitchcock "torture" do you consider to be male fantasy?

 

I agree about LIsa, but I guess I'll have to take another look at Francie.

 

I find Francie to be very female. She's all about female games. Lots of male teasing and prodding.

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> What Hitchcock "torture" do you consider to be male fantasy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Females as victims of male violence, as I edited in "perverse".

 

 

> I find Francie to be very female. She's all about female games. Lots of male teasing and prodding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you equate femininity with game-playing?

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Females as victims of male violence, as I edited in "perverse".

 

No, I can't say that's a big male fantasy. Sex is the primary male fantasy and Hitchcock certainly gives us that.

 

I think male violence toward woman is presented as more a fear of woman than a fantasy of man.

 

Do you equate femininity with game-playing?

 

Both sexes. It's often a tug-of-war. But, yes, I do believe women are more inclined to play games than men. And I say this being a guy who plays games. Lisa Carol is playing games, and Francie is playing a serious game. Love their games.

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I do think Hitch's films are voyeuristic more than is implicit in every (average) film, but I never got any sensation of exploiting women via violent fantasies. Even FRENZY strikes me as a movie about sick, self-delusion and Hitch really made no attempt to make this person (Rusk) sympathetic. Quite the reverse, in fact. Most of Hitch's films depict tortured men, don't they? And yes, I too think women play games but it doesn't shame me to admit it. I could say a lot harsher things about women but I'm controlling myself for public consumption. :D

 

I think Hitch meant that comment about women to relate to how the audience will feel a more visceral horror, and in the men, an added desire to protect, when they see a woman in distress on screen. Yet he still put his male characters in situations of distress more often than the females.

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I think Hitch meant that comment about women to relate to how the audience will feel a more visceral horror, and in the men, an added desire to protect, when they see a woman in distress on screen. Yet he still put his male characters in situations of distress more often than the females.

 

That's how I see it. It's very much a male fantasy to be the "hero," the protector of all, especially woman.

 

Do men enjoy female comeuppance? Yes. How much so? It depends on how bad the woman is in their eyes.

 

Even FRENZY strikes me as a movie about sick, self-delusion and Hitch really made no attempt to make this person (Rusk) sympathetic. Quite the reverse, in fact.

 

Right. I don't think men fantasize about being "Jack the Ripper."

 

Hitch is often about power and control and the fear that comes with not possessing it. Most of the time, he places his leads (us) in situations where they lack power and control. I find the cat-and-mouse games of Francie and "The Cat" in To Catch a Thief to be rather representative of how the male-female relationship sometimes works. In this case, Francie feels as if she has power over "The Cat" but she's fooling herself. I believe she wishes to have power over "The Cat." Feminine wiles. Desires and fears and how the two can come together. Notorious is completely about that.

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>

> That's how I see it. It's very much a male fantasy to be the "hero," the protector of all, especially woman.

>

 

 

And I think that's one of the most beautiful fantasies a man can have and should have. Which leads me to remind everyone: TWO DAYS TO ROBIN HOOD! Whoopeeeee!!! :D

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> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

> Action and adventure thanx to Ridley Scott; derring-do heroics and masculinity to the nth power in Russell Crowe...pass the popcorn AND the Raisinettes!!!

>

> And turn off your cellphones!!!

 

I can't wait!! :D I'm either going to the midnight showing on Friday or Saturday matinee, not sure which, it depends on my friend's schedule. I haven't been to see a (first run) movie in a theater in over a year...maybe two!

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Male, control, dominance, rescues. I see all of these in many Hitchcock films. But I'm also distinctly aware that he explored the opposites of these - the whole 'wrong man/mistaken identity' films, where Can't Be In Control - Being Captured were central themes.

 

I won't take too much of these films as indictments of Hitchcock himself. He generally wasn't writing these tales, and might have merely highlighted some of any tale's aspects - which probably would show off at least some of his psychological make-up.

 

I've read that almost everyone supposedly has 'out of control' nightmares. "Why won't my brake pedal work when I'm crashing the car in my dreams?!!" (Or, I suppose, if you're Yosemite Sam, "Why won't that dragon/camel stop when I shout "Whoa!")

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SPOILERS

 

I always wondered if the film "I wake up Screaming (1941)" had some influence on Hitchcock's Vertigo (1958). The scene before film's ending reminded me of Vertigo. I wake up Screaming (1941) is a film starring Victor Mature, Betty Grable, and a brilliant performance from Laird Cregar.

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> {quote:title=konway87 wrote:}{quote}

> SPOILERS

>

> I always wondered if the film "I wake up Screaming (1941)" had some influence on Hitchcock's Vertigo (1958). The scene before film's ending reminded me of Vertigo. I wake up Screaming (1941) is a film starring Victor Mature, Betty Grable, and a brilliant performance from Laird Cregar.

 

Interesting theory, a copy in love with a beautiful girl he can't have. I'll have to think about that when I next watch I Wake Up Screaming.

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I think of Dana Andrews in love with Gene Tierney in 1941's "LAURA", at least he 'thinks' he can't have her.

 

At about 10:30 this morning, I had a great time being transported out of the 21st century urban jungle of NYC back to the 12th century and Sherwood Forest in "ROBIN HOOD." Oh yeah, Russell Crowe's a man's man in this film, and the white steed he rides had a such a beautiful mane of blonde hair that it would rival any of Hitchcock's blondes. My favorite line:

 

"I broke her skin more than she did mine."

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SPOILERS

 

I also want to ask you everyone about the film "Saboteur"? What do you think about it? Many people consider it as a weak Hitchcock. But other consider it as one of Hitchcock's best films.

 

To me, Saboteur is a great film. I liked Cummings and Priscilla Lane. As you know, Hitchcock wasn't a big director back then. So he didn't get big stars like Gary Cooper and Barbara Stanwyck. So he ended up getting less known stars like Cummings and Priscilla Lane. These were 2 stars who were willing to take roles when big stars refused. Hitchcock himself admits that Cummings is a competent performer.

 

As for the script, I think Hitchcock had more difficulty with Saboteur (1942) than other films like North by Northwest, The 39 steps, and Foreign Correspondent. The script was very different, when they started shooting. But they had to change many of the elements because of Pearl Harbour attack.

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I enjoy and admire Saboteur and I don't think it is a weak effort at all. I just have reservations about Robert Cummings in anything. His personality grates on me. Priscilla is okay. The movie as a whole is good enough, though, to overcome these qualms on my part about Bob.

 

The finale is one of the best in all of Hitch.

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