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Engelman

Movies that are not "CLASSIC"

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I really do not like the direction I see TCM going. Let me say that I have been a TCM fan for years. I love movies from the 30's,40's, and 50's. I love 'film noir", action adventure, drama,comedy,war, detective,and, in general, most movies from the time periods mentioned. I DO NOT want to see movies from the 70's,80's. and 90's. These are NOT CLASSIC movies. Aside from the fact that they haven't earned it yet, they can also be seen on dozens of other channels. The movies from the early years can only be seen on TCM. More and more of these "garbage" movies are appearing in the TCM line-up. There hasn't been a "BOGIE", or Mitchum, or Charlie Chan, etc.,etc., movie in quite a while...

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This topic has been endlessly debated in many other threads.

 

There is such a thing as a modern classic. And something I call a 'future classic.'

 

If we limited our enjoyment of movies we might miss something very good.

 

Plus, wouldn't silent film actors and fans of that era have the most to gripe about? To them, THE JAZZ SINGER and GONE WITH THE WIND would be too modern.

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*I really do not like the direction I see TCM going. Let me say that I have been a TCM fan for years.*

 

February is the annual *31 Days of Oscar* salute (goes until the first few days of March) and TCM celebrates the history of the Academy Awards and that includes its modern history.

 

This has been an annual event on TCM since 1995.

 

It's amazing to me how many self-professed long time viewers/lovers of the channel seem to forget that this is an annual event.

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Yes, this comes up all the time on this board, but you are right.

Cinephiles are overjoyed when they find TCM and there is nothing more satifying than finding a gem they have never seen from the 30's, 40's and 50's, or get a classic they haven't seen in decades, and I think some feel betrayed when something recent gets aired.

 

Then the worry: "Is this a trend, a direction?"

 

Still, it's the best chance we have to see the classics. I'm just happy the commercials for insurance companies haven't started. It must be tempting for the bean counters at Turner; they have demonstrated integrity and courage...thus far.

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Aside from the 31 Days of Oscar point, I'm fine with the (so-far) judicious sprinkling of the best of more recent films because it's very difficult to see them anywhere else where they're not interrupted by commercials, or not in their original aspect ratio, or without intrusive graphic station ID bugs and "coming up" clutter.

 

Yes, I know TCM doesn't/can't always show a film in its full letterbox format, but it appears they try their best.

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Good post. And we should mention FMC as showing complete uninterrupted movies, plus many of their prestige productions are shown in letterbox.

 

FMC, though, is light years behind TMC in terms of going through its catalogue of films and un-vaulting titles that fans are clamoring for...

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> {quote:title=Engelman wrote:}{quote}

> I really do not like the direction I see TCM going. Let me say that I have been a TCM fan for years. I love movies from the 30's,40's, and 50's. I love 'film noir", action adventure, drama,comedy,war, detective,and, in general, most movies from the time periods mentioned. I DO NOT want to see movies from the 70's,80's. and 90's. These are NOT CLASSIC movies. Aside from the fact that they haven't earned it yet, they can also be seen on dozens of other channels. The movies from the early years can only be seen on TCM. More and more of these "garbage" movies are appearing in the TCM line-up. There hasn't been a "BOGIE", or Mitchum, or Charlie Chan, etc.,etc., movie in quite a while...

 

Quite a lot of TCM subscribers agree with you.

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This was a concern of mine when I first started posting here. I totally agree. "Modern Classics" have MANY other outlets to be shown out there . . . and without a functioning time machine I have no idea what a "Future Classic" is (although I think it must be similar to a Mediocre Classic, i.e. an Oxymoron).

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> {quote:title=Engelman wrote:}{quote}

> There hasn't been a "BOGIE", or Mitchum, or Charlie Chan, etc.,etc., movie in quite a while...

 

True about Chan, not true about Bogie and Bob. They've both been on very recently.

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Here are some definitions (at least how I sort of define these terms):

 

_Modern Classics_, include award winners and box office hits from the late 60s into the 2000s...basically, post-code era successes.

 

_Future Classics_, are those films that are not yet recognized as classics, because

 

a) they were marketed wrong and failed to attract viewers;

B) they are ahead of their time ; and

c) they are in the process of being re-evaluated by critics that consider them influential

 

When the film BLITHE SPIRIT was released at the end of WWII, it bombed. But now it is esteemed as a classic. Similarly, John Huston's THE KREMLIN LETTER performed poorly at the box office because of its highly complex plot, but critics now call it one of the director's great films.

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Ditto. I don't watch TCM in Feb mainly because they show even more recent movies. There was a time when classic movies were shown on local t.v.. Now, in many instances TCM is the only place that will show classic movies 24hours a day. TCM is slowly incorporating more and more recent movies. I would rather see Oscar winning and nominated movies in Feb from the beginning of the awards ceremony until the 1950's. I would love to see more pre-code movies, British movies, westerns, film noir, gangster movies, musicals. I have even noticed that there are alot of repeats of Mr. Deeds, Shop Around the Corner, etc. I love these movies but there are so many gems out there from silent movies to the 1950's that the rotation shouldn't be so quick.

 

I am sure that a few viewers won't change their programming formats, though I feel cheated when you say "Classic." For me classic is not a made from the 1970's to now. Just saying...

 

I wish that there was another real classic movie channel that only played movies from the inception of movies to the 1960's.

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> {quote:title=ValentineXavier wrote:}{quote}

> > {quote:title=Engelman wrote:}{quote}

> > There hasn't been a "BOGIE", or Mitchum, or Charlie Chan, etc.,etc., movie in quite a while...

>

> True about Chan, not true about Bogie and Bob. They've both been on very recently.

 

It took ten posts for someone to point this out and "recently" isn't even adequate to describe how much Bogart is actually on the channel. I mean he must be among the top 10, even top 5, most seen actors on TCM.

 

The numbers don't lie: TCM's scheduling of newer films has been consistent for many, many years. They aren't showing "more" of them. The number of post-70 films hovers at about 10% of the monthly schedule at most (30-35 films.) In April, you'll only see 14 films made after 1969. 14-35 films out of 300+ - it's not a big deal.

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gaah.gif

 

Why does everyone need to defend their opinion of what "classic" is? Why not just use the dictionary definition? You might be surprised to realize what "classic" really means.

 

"Classic" means any art (music, dance, paintings, film, etc) that appeals to the majority of people. This means it should transcend time and culture. When it doesn't, you call it "An Asian classic" or "A Latino classic".

Mozart's music, Shakespere's plays, Astaire's dancing can be enjoyed and appreciated by those in South America as well as India. Sure, there's always going to be those who don't agree or understand them, but overall they strike a chord in most people. It shouldn't matter if they were done 300 years ago or 45 years ago, if they still move humans emotionally, they are "classic".

 

A "future classic" is an art that critics and those with the pulse on the art form predict will stand the test of time, but it hasn't been given the time yet.

 

TCM is a station that concerns itself with film, a 100 year old media. I may not personally like Jerry Lewis films, but the fact that the French and Japanese love them 50 years later actually put him in the category of "classic". Low budget fluff like Bowery Boys & Andy Hardy films may not seem classic to us, but I bet they'd appeal to teens the world over. Teen angst, fitting in groups, learning independence are universal, timeless themes.

 

I loathe some of the films being shown this 31 Days. I disagree with some of the films falling under the category of "classic". But just because _I_ think they're dreck, they somehow have touched other people's hearts. Only time will tell once it gives it's true test as to whether they will be deemed "classic" 50-100 years from now.

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Personally I do consider "Classic" a period of time instead of a value on a film's worth (that is too subjective to me). I mean there is such a thing as Classic Music, Classic Rock, Classic Literature etc and none of these things mean the "best of something" they represent a period of time.

 

I think there is such a thing for Classic Films too. If we are talking Hollywood I guess it would be from the Silent era to the end of the 1960's. Although some people count the silent era separately and some people end it at the 1950's.

 

If we are talking about foreign Classic cinema it might get a bit more complicated.

 

However I don't necessarily think TCM is just a channel for the Classic Era of cinema. I think it's definition of classic cinema is more broad. Actually I sort of look at TCM as more of a Film History channel. As long as TCM plays mainly older films (which you can't really see anywhere else) I am fine with the sprinkling of newer films from time to time when they fit a particular theme TCM is highlighting.

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Thank you!

 

I could not have said that better. Many, posters here claim to know what "classic" stands for, but in reality the true meaning of the word as you have pointed out suggests that any film can be a "classic".

 

The same old argument used by those around here to claim that they are sick and tired of seeing newer movies being shown on TCM miss another point as well.

 

When this channel started up in 1994, most of the films being shown were from the so-called "Golden Age of Hollywood". Every now and then a newer film, post 1970 was shown.

 

But in 1994 a 1930 film was "only" 64 years old; a 1940 film was "only" 54 years old; 1 1950 film was "only" 44 years old, and a 1960 film was "only" 34 years old.

 

Now we are in 2011. A 1970 film is "only" 41 years old; a 1980 film is "only" 31 years old; a 1990 film is "only" 21 years old. I could go on, but based only on the ages of films, most films being shown on this channel were all produced more than 20 years ago. With a few exceptions of course you will see a more recent film less than 10 years old.

 

My wife and I watched 1982's Gandhi the other evening. Now that is what I would consider a "modern" classic. But in reality it should just be considered a "classic". That film was released 29 years ago. And yet somehow, the posters here who say newer films should not be shown are missing the point. If a film that was deemed to be a worthy, well-produced film with a great story and wonderful acting and that film was made in the 1940s, well then that film belongs here. But if you said the same thing about a movie like Gandhi, and the only argument that these same posters use, "oh, well that is a newer movie and that shouldn't be shown on TCM, that is missing the whole point as to why TCM exists in the first place.

 

lzcutter has always gone back to the original mission statement of TCM that says the channel shows what it deems to be classic films made all the way up to and including the most recently released films. That to me seems to suggest that TCM does not regard more recent films as lacking in the way TCM seems to think of them in relation to the years they were originally released.

 

*Engelman posted the following to start this discussion on 12/02:*

 

*Movies that are not "CLASSIC"*

 

*I really do not like the direction I see TCM going. Let me say that I have been a TCM fan for years. I love movies from the 30's,40's, and 50's. I love 'film noir", action adventure, drama,comedy,war, detective,and, in general, most movies from the time periods mentioned. I DO NOT want to see movies from the 70's,80's. and 90's. These are NOT CLASSIC movies. Aside from the fact that they haven't earned it yet, they can also be seen on dozens of other channels. The movies from the early years can only be seen on TCM. More and more of these "garbage" movies are appearing in the TCM line-up. There hasn't been a "BOGIE", or Mitchum, or Charlie Chan, etc.,etc., movie in quite a while...*

 

As far as not showing Bogie, or Mitchum or Chan, he may have a point. I have however seen some of their films recently on the channel. They may even have films of theirs scheduled for this months' 31 Days of Oscar. But to say that many of the films from the 1970s, 80s, and 90s are available on other channels misses the point. Those films from the 1970s on are here because one way or the other TCM believes that they belong here. That they are worthy enough to stand besides other classics like Casablanca, Gone With the Wind, The Razors Edge, The Searchers and so on. Where else would someone get a chance to see a film from 1982 that won eight Oscars like Gandhi? I don't ever see that film on the other premium channels like HBO, Showtime. Maybe it has shown up on AMC, but it's length of 188 minutes would have been severely edited and cut to fit into a standard two hour frame of time.

 

No, this same old tired argument about more recent films is not an accurate or worthy argument to have.

 

Especially as JonasEB stated in his wonderful post from February 10:

 

*The numbers don't lie: TCM's scheduling of newer films has been consistent for many, many years. They aren't showing "more" of them. The number of post-70 films hovers at about 10% of the monthly schedule at most (30-35 films.) In April, you'll only see 14 films made after 1969. 14-35 films out of 300 - it's not a big deal.*+

 

So as far as I am concerned, TCM has the right amount of newer films being shown as they have the right amount of older films being shown. Personally, IMHO, a film from as recent as 2003 should be considered an "instant" classic: Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World. Now if there ever was a film that would appeal to an older generation, this film does it in spades.

 

Message edited by Fxreyman

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Kudos! I guess the definition of classic is not the issue but rather what I, or each individual considers a classic movie. Some would consider the definition as the barometer while others would consider it a distinct time period.

 

I do appreciate TCM for their restoration projects, showcasing a particular artist for the month, and day, etc. Turner Classic does so much right that the little that I don't like is miniscule in comparison. In my opinion I would love to see a channel dedicated to film from the silent era to the 1950's (big wish) but it would nice. I do understand that TCM has evolved into a film historian and that is why I believe that your statement about TCM showcasing the entire spectrum of film may be appropriate in some instances, such as this month's prelude to Oscar.

 

Someday I see the possibility for TCM to create a network of channels like STARZ, and HBO where each channel would target a particular film audience. For example, one channel for silent movies, another for classic sitcoms, and another for westerns, etc.

 

Also, as someone said in a previous post the timeline for what is considered a classic movie will change as time passes. So, it seems as if the debate will continue.......(horrors!)

 

Oh, I like the Bowery Boys, Jerry Lewis, and the Andy Hardy films. :-)

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Solution is very simple. Show movies no more than once every six months and this will lead to far more movies being shown. Some movies shown in February are back again in March. Example: both King's Row and All About Eve were shown in Feb. and are scheduled TWICE for March! And they have been on in recent months as well.

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Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo ; Zaat! ; Grizzly and Poltergeist are not "classic."

 

Just felt like throwing that in, in case the elusive "Programmers" are watching.

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> {quote:title=TheCid wrote:}{quote}

> Solution is very simple. Show movies no more than once every six months and this will lead to far more movies being shown. Some movies shown in February are back again in March. Example: both King's Row and All About Eve were shown in Feb. and are scheduled TWICE for March! And they have been on in recent months as well.

 

I know it doesn't matter to you, but the reason that those two films are on twice in March is that the TCM programmer has them on first as part of TCM's 31 Days of Oscar (it runs for all of February and then the first three days of March, when they are on) and then separately for the month of programming for March itself.

 

_By the way, show me where in FEBRUARY that the two fims are shown._ They do not appear in February. All About Eve is on March 1st, as part of the 31 Days of Oscar. Kings Row is on March 2nd as part of the same.

 

And as far as running a film no more than once every six months, it's obvious you have never read any of the posts on this board about programming or else live in a dream world where contracts for rentals include just one-time showing fees. Certainly, there will be very special films that TCM has to pay through-the-roof prices for one showing of a classic, but generally, as far as I know, most rental agreements include a set number of showings during several month period. So, if they rent MOVIE from a studio and are required to pay a minimum MONEY for NUMBER of SHOWINGS that the studio has set, by your way of doing things they would be throwing away a lot of money just to show it once.

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What I want to know is, when are they going to show that Marie Osmund movie, *Coconuts* ? Shirley, that's a classic. (classic something...)

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> {quote:title=JonnyGeetar wrote:}{quote}

> Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo ; Zaat! ; Grizzly and Poltergeist are not "classic."

>

> Just felt like throwing that in, in case the elusive "Programmers" are watching.

 

 

I'll give you the first three (I nevah even hoid of *Zaat!*)

 

But no way is *Poltergeist* not a classic.

 

A "classic" is anything influential that people still want or admire long after its introduction...be it a car, a food, a drink, a piece of fashion, a song, or a movie. A classic has staying power.

 

*Poltergeist* scared the hell out of a generation. I'm 39...if I ask anyone my age about this movie, they invariably get a smile on their face and talk about their own experience of being traumatized by the clown under the bed. I'd say that movie has earned its place in the pantheon.

 

Was glad to see TCM play another horror film recently-- *Black Christmas*...another highly influential film (for better or worse!), and in setting up standards of a genre for years to come, it gets to be a "classic" too.

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I can definitely see both sides of this issue. But to randomly discount any movie made after 1970 (for example) as being ineligible to be considered a classic is as silly as automatically assuming that every movie made in the 30's and 40's IS a classic. Have you seen some of the crap they made back then?? Granted, when I turn on TCM I do not want to watch Chevy Chase (again, for example), but do I really need to told that every damn Deanna Durbin movie ever made deserves to be called a CLASSIC? Gimme a break. Classics, as has been said, come from every era, every genre. But I do not want Lifetime Female-In-Distress movies or Police Academy 19 when I turn on TCM. I guess there is no real resolution to be made here. This "debate" will go on as long as there is a TCM. Like my dad used to say, if you don't like it, CHANGE THE CHANNEL.

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> {quote:title=misswonderly wrote:}{quote}

>What I want to know is, when are they going to show that Marie Osmund movie, Coconuts ? Shirley, that's a classic. (classic something...).

 

I rarely post, but your comment has made me come out of the woodwork misswonderly, lol.

 

When I was in the fifth grade, I won movie tickets to see Goin' Coconuts after hearing the turkey gobble during Thanksgiving and calling in to a radio contest. An additional prize was a movie poster of said same. While not a classic by most standards, it does remain a nostalgic moment of my not so misspent youth. Thank you for stirring those memories and giving me a good chuckle. :-)

 

As to movies that are not "classic", while I prefer what might be considered traditional classics, I often find myself enjoying a newer classic that I have not seen in quite some time. Such was the case last Oscar season when TCM aired A Room With a View. And while frequent airings of some movies might be slightly annoying, I have found that not to always be the case, especially when I have missed a favorite film due to an oversight and have then been able to catch it at a later time. It all comes out in the wash, I suppose.

 

As long as the ratio of newer and more traditional classics weighs heavier with the latter, I have no problem with TCM's programming. I appreciate TCM immensely, especially after what became of the once watchable, but no longer, AMC. I could do without most tv channels, except for PBS and TCM.

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