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[B]TCM's official definition of "classic"[/B]


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To me the key is the "90% are pre-1960". I like this criteria since it is more specific than 'classic' (which is meaningless in my view). It isn't that I don't enjoy post-1960 movies but that often they can be seen on other stations. But sadly those stations have commericals. (take AMC, yes they have some nice movies BUT with so many breaks watching them is a joke).


Also I like when a station has an identity; I don't want ESPN to show food cooking shows or the Food Network to show sports. TCM's identity is clearly the studio era movies and I would like to keep it that way, so when I turn to it I have a general idea what I'm going to get. (like last night when I went to chanell 68 (TCM in my town), and got Pretty Woman; I was sure I had the wrong station!


So how about two TCMs! One called 'studio era classic' and one call 'modern classics'.

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> {quote:title=fxreyman wrote:}{quote}

> Because I have to tell you...... IMHO about 50% of the time TCM shows enough junk made from before 1960 it makes my stomach upset.


Ha! You don't like old classic movies.


If you don't like them, just change channels. Go over to AMC. :)

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I agree James. First of all I *do not* have a problem with TCM or what TCM schedules. I am fine with the sprinkling of a "new classic" from time to time if it fits a specific theme as long as the films are predominately pre-1970 and the older the better.


And what I mean by theme is this month is Oscar month so I do understand why there are new movies on. I even plan to watch some. For example I never saw Silence of the Lambs and well this seems a better time than any to watch it.



However if I am going to be quite frank TCM's definition of Classic is way to broad. Now I understand there are many definitions of Classic but what TCM is basically saying is it can be anything but in a sense that means the term means nothing in the end.


When I tell my friends I love Classic Movies.....I do mean old movies from a specific time period.

However it isn't such a big deal to me that I disagree with TCM's definition of the word Classic because 99% of the time I am quite happy with TCM (whatever their definition of Classic is). I think it is the best channel on cable by far. In the future though I wouldn't want to see the majority of films on TCM be "new Classics" because that definition also fits TCM's definition. That would not be a good thing for me and I have seen it happen on too many other channels which used to play mainly Classic (as in old things) but now schedule just the opposite.


But then that's the future and I say I am going to enjoy the channel now which I do think is doing a great job. I am not going to get bent over shape over a definition or over a possibility of the future.


Edited by: Kinokima on Feb 12, 2011 3:57 PM

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*fxreyman wrote:*

*Because I have to tell you...... IMHO about 50% of the time TCM shows enough junk made from before 1960 it makes my stomach upset.*


*FredC wrote:*


*Ha! You don't like old classic movies.*


*If you don't like them, just change channels. Go over to AMC*




Rey likes old classic movies as much as any of us. He was being sarcastic about the upset stomach and mimicking what some posters have written about movies made after 1960 when they air on TCM.

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I guess they don?t teach kids in school today what ?Classic? means.


It refers to art, music, and literature that was executed in the ?Classic? eras of, roughly, the 17th through the 19th Centuries. Like classical music, classic art, classic literature. If you find a classical radio station, you?ll know you will find some Mozart and Beethoven music, and no hard rock. If you go to a classical art museum, you?ll find great old paintings and no big red plastic polka dot cows. If you go to a classical La Traviata opera, you will know that you won?t hear any hard rock music.


The classical era of the cinema was from about 1914 through the late 1950s, and some into the early ?60s. This is also known as ?the studio era?.


This means that the best studio lighting technicians, sound men, producers, directors, etc., who worked together every day and who knew how to make the best movies, worked for the studios and made the best films, until the studios began to fall apart in the 1960s, which was when ?independent? films began to be made, and independent producers tended to throw together film crews that had never worked together before, they used cameramen who zoomed too much and used too many hand-held camera shots (because they were working in a hurry, and didn?t want to take time to put the camera on a tripod), and they used scripts that had a lot of vulgarity and cursing in them, in an attempt to attract audiences back to the theaters.


Then in the ?80s and ?90s, slasher films became popular, and then CGI, which is just computer stuff like computer games, although a few good movies were made, using old studio-era formulas.


There are at least 10 new-movie channels on the first and second tier of cable and satellite TV, so go watch them if you want to see newer movies.

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*If you find a classical radio station, you?ll know you will find some Mozart and Beethoven music, and no hard rock.*


Ah, Fred, then why does every city have a rock station that plays classic music (and I don't mean Mozart or Beethoven), rock and roll music has only been around the last 60 years but radio stations across the country all play classic rock.


Classic is not just reserved for the 17th-19th Century arts and hasn't been for a very long, long time.

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Well there is a difference between "Classical" and "Classic". Sometimes they are used interchangeably and that is probably what the issue with definitions is.


Classical always refers to a specific time period. Classic often refers to something of lasting worth or a prime example of something.

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Ok, here's a dictionary definition of classic. It pretty much covers ALL the bases:


classic [ˈkl?sɪk]


1. of the highest class, esp in art or literature

2. serving as a standard or model of its kind; definitive

3. adhering to an established set of rules or principles in the arts or sciences a classic proof

4. characterized by simplicity, balance, regularity, and purity of form; classical

5. of lasting interest or significance

6. continuously in fashion because of its simple and basic style


(and if someone already posted this and I missed it, 1000 apologies)

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> {quote:title=FredCDobbs wrote:}{quote}

> We can see The Hunt for Red October on other cable channels, but we cant see The Bitter Tea of General Yen, Wild Boys of the Road, The Phantom Lady, or other old classics on any other cable channel. We cant find films from the 20s, 30s, and 40s on any other channel, except for a few Fox films from the 40s on the Fox Channel (third tier), but we can find plenty of modern movies from the 80s, 90s, and 00s on several other channels.


I have to say that I agree totally with Fred and PrinceSaliano on this, and always have. I have little interest in or use for anything post-1960.

But, guys, did you ever think how overwhelming it would be if TCM really did show films from only before 1960 or before 1950? We'd have no time off, no breaks! At least all the new & recent junk ... I mean "modern classics" that TCM shows provides us with opportunities to catch up on old DVD or video recordings and to do other stuff like sleeping, etc.

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You know what Fred,


I can stand up on my own two feet. I have been doing that now for over 50 years. Obviously not as long as you have, but based on what I have read around here, who could have?


But a BIG thank you to LZCutter for having the grace to say something in my defense.


I was away this afternoon attending a theatrical comedy play at my local playhouse. It was a very funny remake of the original 1962 play from France called Boeing, Boeing.


But I digress.


I did not justfall off the turnip truck Fred!


For your information, I did attend school although I am quite sure it was nothing compared to the one room schoolhouse you attended way back when.


I did not have to learn what classic meant in school. I learned what it meant from my parents who were much better at explaining things to me than any teacher ever could.


And one of the things they taught me was that anything considered a classic could mean anything from any time period or no time period.


Most art, the art I was seeing for the first time at a local museum was classic. The Blue Ridge Mountains that we lived near were a classic of nature. Thomas Jefferson's Monticello was a classic form of architecture. Even at that time I was in first grade, I was told that television shows like Andy Griffith, The Wild Wild West, The Virginian, The Red Skelton Show, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Perry Mason were all classic, even though now looking back at those shows, they were not classic yet in length of time they were on the air.


And most important was the fact that my mother was a classic. A classic beauty, a model of her kind.


Later on I even attended college. Even took some film classes. This is when I started to appreciate all movies from all time periods. I actually started to pay close attention to the type fonts the producers used during the opening credits, and the art direction and cinematography. Some of my friends and I debated for hours that it was much harder to shoot outdoors than inside a studio where film makers could control the lighting. This is when I started to collect films for a library.


Some of my favorite books were eventually turned into films.


I agree with you that the technicians from the Studio era were some of the finest craftsman ever assembled. But to say that because the vaunted studio system eventually went away in the 1960s and then try and make a comparison of the craftsmanship between the studio system era and the films being produced later in the 1960s is way off the mark. You should know better.


It is always so interesting when someone like you thinks that just because one era has died that the people working in that era, well they have all died too. Thats not the truth and you know it. Many of the technicians from the studio era went on working in the 1960s and beyond. And just because some film makers started to use CGI effects eventually does not mean that they were just as good as the technicians from the "Golden Era" is missing the point. Technicians in the late thirties to mid fifties had to learn their craft all over again with the importation of color film. The same could be said of the technicians who used a lot of stop motion and models effects in the 1960s to 1980s who now had the added bonus of CGI to work with. Those techs from the 60s/80s also had to learn something new.


And not all films produced during the 60s into the 70s were independent productions. Sure some of them were but the way you look back that must be the way you think all films were produced back then. Not so. The studio system was gone not the studios. They were still around and they were still hiring directors, producers, writers, technicians. If anything I would say that many of the technicians of today are just as good as their predecessors.


You mention the slasher movies of the 80s and 90s. Well what about all of the not so well produced sci-fi movies from the fifties? The same could be said of those films as you wrote about the slasher films.


There are many facets of film production today that have changed with the times. Some are basically the same. Writing, cinematography, art direction, music scoring, almost every area of film production is the same except for CGI effects. And why is that? The computer. The computer came along and actually made production of film easier. And it also gave the production people yet another tool in their arsenal to create even more wonderful things we get to see up on the screen.


I am not saying that all movies made today are well made, actually I'd have to say that maybe IMHO only about 25% are made well today. But there are not as many films made today either, compared to the earlier years. And thats not because the studios don't want to make money, and its not because the films are all made of crap. Its because the movies of today have so many more competitors to deal with.


Just because some of the films made today are made with CGI does not make them evil incarnate. Yes, that is how I would describe you trying to describe CGI to to me.


Another example is the wonderful John Adams mini series on HBO. Without the kind of CGI effects available today, much of what we saw up on the screen would not have been possible. I am not saying that they could not have done as good a job without CGI, it just made it easier for the producers to use CGI to take us back to Adam's time more realistically.


Back in the Golden Era of film making can you tell me what Films' greatest competitor was?


There were two. Live theater and radio. In the fifties TV nearly destroyed the film industry.


What do we have today?


Cable TV, radio, the internet, DVDs, all sorts of digital devices, and live theater. Well they are still making films aren't they? Pretty resilient I'd say.


I don't know why I am trying to tell you all of this, maybe just to hear the clicking of the keyboard on my Mac? Because you have already made up your mind about this whole business. You are going to believe that only certain films from certain time eras should be shown here where as some of us think ALL films from ALL time eras should be shown.


This debate is far from being over (sorry filmlover!) as long as the participants are willing to throw volleys back and forth like two old sailing frigates from the War of 1812. You remember that war don't you Fred?


You know, I do watch films released before 1960. And would it surprise you to know that I actually own a few films made before 1960?


Any idea how many I own?


Would you like to take a guess?


Just for your information I currently have in my home collection 659 films. Any guesses on what percentage of films I own were released before 1960??


Oh come on, you can take a guess can't you???


Don't be shy......

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I?m not telling you what films you should like or not like. That?s your business. I?m telling you to watch the modern films on the modern-film channels. There are at least 10 of them in basic cable and another 5 or so on the second tier. So if you receive TCM, you should also receive about 12 to 15 modern-movie channels. So go watch them, and stop trying to ruin TCM with modern movies.


You try to pretend there is only one movie channel on all of television. Sorry, that won?t work.

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Like a lot of words, classic has a number of meanings, so let each choose as they

will. Classical music is a well-known term, but I've rarely heard of classical painting

or classical literature (excluding how that term is used to refer to Greek and Roman

writings). And there's obviously no reason to think that classic works of art ended in the

19th century. Long story short: Not all old moves are classics and not all classic

movies are old.

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> {quote:title=FredCDobbs wrote:}{quote}

> Im not telling you what films you should like or not like. Thats your business. Im telling you to watch the modern films on the modern-film channels. There are at least 10 of them in basic cable and another 5 or so on the second tier. So if you receive TCM, you should also receive about 12 to 15 modern-movie channels. So go watch them, and stop trying to ruin TCM with modern movies.


> You try to pretend there is only one movie channel on all of television. Sorry, that wont work.


I never said that there was just one movie channel.


I get several movie channels that show modern films. And some of those movie channels show older films as well.


I don't have to watch other movie channels. I like to watch TCM when I want to. As far as TCM showing newer movies, ah.... that is not my doing.


If you are thinking that I want TCM to show newer movies, I think you might want to engage the programmers. I have no decision making authority with them.


They show newer movies without any of my input.

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> {quote:title=fxreyman wrote:}{quote}

> You are going to believe that only certain films from certain time eras should be shown here where as some of us think ALL films from ALL time eras should be shown.



Then TCM can change its name to ?The All-Movie Channel?.

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Most states won't issue "Classic" license plates until the car is 25 years old. Why can't TCM use a measure as that one? 25 seems still too young? There are some films that will become classics, but I believe there is no such a thing as a Modern Classic. The California Craftsman home was just a house for many years. Only age defines a antique.


Edited by: casablancalover on Feb 13, 2011 7:51 AM

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I can't believe this discussion AGAIN.

I respect filmlover's posting of TCM's definition, but it's somewhat emotional. I'll post the dictionary definition again for this thread:


"Classic" means any art (music, dance, paintings, film, etc) that appeals to the majority of people. This means it should transcend time and culture. When it doesn't, you call it "An Asian classic" or "A Latino classic".

Mozart's music, Shakespere's plays, Astaire's dancing can be enjoyed and appreciated by those in South America as well as India. Sure, there's always going to be those who don't agree or understand them, but overall they strike a chord in most people. It shouldn't matter if they were done 300 years ago or 45 years ago, if they still move humans emotionally, they are "classic".


A "future classic" is an art that critics and those with the pulse on the art form predict will stand the test of time, but it hasn't been given the time yet.


TCM is a station that concerns itself with film, a 100 year old media. I may not personally like Jerry Lewis films, but the fact that the French and Japanese love them 50 years later actually put him in the category of "classic". Low budget fluff like Bowery Boys & Andy Hardy films may not seem classic to us, but I bet they'd appeal to teens the world over. Teen angst, fitting in groups, learning independence are universal, timeless themes.


I loathe some of the films being shown this 31 Days. I disagree with some of the films falling under the category of "classic". But just because _I_ think they're dreck, they somehow have touched other people's hearts. Only time will tell once it gives it's true test as to whether they will be deemed "classic" 50-100 years from now.


I should further say that crazy Ed Wood films & NIGHT OF THE LEPUS fall under the category of "Cult Classics". They have actually gained their audience through time, who see more in them than the average movie goer, not unlike the French liking Jerry Lewis.

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