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"It's woefully Overrated" says Richard Schickel


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> {quote:title=Filmgoddess wrote:}{quote}

>

> BONNIE AND CLYDE -- I just don't get it. I watched it (or tried to) again the other night for the first time in years and I just couldn't figure out why it has the reputation it does.

>

 

I agree that it's overrated. But it was rather influential.

 

> 42nd STREET -- a musical? Where all the musical numbers are crammed into the last 10 minutes? Huh? Without the music it might have been a good movie. But a classic musical? Overrated IMHO.

>

 

I don't usually appreciate musicals, so maybe that's why I like it so much. I think it's great fun, stunning to look at.

 

> THE GRAPES OF WRATH -- who needs sleeping pills? A total bore to me. Overly earnest, too long, dull, preachy, completely unrealistic. Because of it I will never have insomnia.

>

 

Love it, or hate it, it's so realistic that you could read all of its plot over and over, as stories in the newspapers of the time. I grew up in Oklahoma, and my parents lived through the Dust Bowl. If anything, it was worse than depicted. Preachy? Well, yes, it definitely has a POV and a message. Woody Guthrie condensed the book into a song titled Tom Joad. Steinbeck was jealous of Guthrie's ability to convey much of the book in a song. But, it's still a great film, highly evocative of the time.

 

My three most overrated films:

*Stagecoach*

*GWTW*

*Titanic*

 

I've already railed enough about the other two elsewhere on the boards, so I'll just mention *Stagecoach*. *The Big Trail*, which came nine years earlier, was everything *Stagecoach* was supposed to be, and it was in an early widescreen process. *TBT* should have gotten all the kudos *Stagecoach* got, because it got there first, and that was the main claim to fame of *Stagecoach*.

 

Although I think designating any film 'the best ever made,' etc., is pointless, and foolish, I think *Citizen Kane* deserves all the respect it gets.

 

And, we'll remember *The Maltese Falcon* long after Schickel is forgotten, and rightly so! :)

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Most overrated: Bonnie & Clyde or The Graduate. Gratuitous violence or even more gratuitous generational pandering, take your pick.

 

Strong Contenders: Nashville, Yankee Doodle Dandy, The Stranger, Touch of Evil, Bus Stop, San Francisco, The African Queen, Sylvia Scarlett, Harper, East of Eden, The Miracle of Morgan's Creek, Duck Soup, The Silence of the Lambs, Reds, The Big Chill, Field of Dreams, To Kill a Mockingbird, and any of those interterrestial extravaganzas of the late 60's and the 70's....

 

And granted, Grapes of Wrath is a bit much, even if the conditions it depicts were all too real.

 

But 42nd Street? Are you kidding? Must have been tough on your mother, not having any children. That's one of the few musicals of the 30's (along with Gold Diggers of 1933 and Footlight Parade) that wouldn't put a speed freak to sleep. Even if you don't like all the musical numbers, the repartee among the gumsnappers and the stagehands is a delight from beginning to end.

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> {quote:title=FredCDobbs wrote:}{quote}

> > I agree that it's overrated. But it was rather influential.

> Why do people say Bonnie and Clyde was "influential"? What films did it influence?

 

From the wikipedia:

 

>Influence

>

>Some critics cite Joseph H. Lewis's Gun Crazy, a 1950 film noir about a bank-robbing couple (also based loosely on the real Bonnie and Clyde), as a major influence on this film. Forty years after its premiere, Bonnie and Clyde has been cited as a major influence for such disparate films as The Wild Bunch, The Godfather, The Departed,[22] and Natural Born Killers.[23] Bonnie and Clyde were also the subject of a popular 1967 French pop song performed by Serge Gainsbourg and Brigitte Bardot. Some aspects of the Bollywood movie Bunty aur Babli are inspired by this movie.

 

I'll admit that sounds a bit thin. Perhaps its biggest influence was to get people to say it was a big influence. I think Arthur Penn made better films, *Little Big Man*, and *Mickey One* being two of my favorites.

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> {quote:title=AndyM108 wrote:}{quote}Most overrated:

> ...Duck Soup...

Duck Soup??? DUCK SOUP!!!

 

11250-8806.gif

 

 

"You REALIZE, of course, that this means WAR!"...don't cha Andy?! :P

 

;)

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This is the process of assessing works of art, not just film: A work is created. It is a masterpiece, or brilliant, or innovative, or popular. Praise builds on praise. Notoriety can be gained by celebrating it. A reputation for the work develops. It is valued out of reflex, without true understanding of the work's merit. Eventually, praising the work returns little notoriety, as it is merely stating the obvious. At that point, notoriety can be gained by discounting the work, or the unthinking adulation of it (as in Duchamp putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa). Thus begins an era of Reassessment. This continues until little notoriety can be gained downplaying the work, whereupon begins the era of Reappraisal.

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> {quote:title=cujas wrote:}{quote}Richard Schickel's DVD commentaries are woefully overrated.

Zing! But that would imply that people actually like his commentaries! Does anyone?

 

I like Schickel's "Men Who Made the Movies" series (in which he has no opportunity to say anything) and his revival of Sam Fuller's Big Red One but that's about it. He's not much of a critic.

 

As for the question at hand, I'll say that most of the Academy's "Best Foreign Language" category is generally a poor representation of the state of world cinema...but of course AMPAS is an easy target in general.

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> {quote:title=Dargo wrote:}{quote}

> > {quote:title=AndyM108 wrote:}{quote}Most overrated:

> > ...Duck Soup...

> Duck Soup??? DUCK SOUP!!!

>

> 11250-8806.gif

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> "You REALIZE, of course, that this means WAR!"...don't cha Andy?! :P

>

>

> ;)

>

 

You've found an ally. *Duck Soup* is great!

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Wow Dobsy, first you make perfect sense:

 

>These are just personal opinions. Many opinions vary because we are talking about movie art.

 

...and then you say:

 

>Citizen Kane is mostly a guy's movie.

 

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"Overrated" is a response to other's opinions-YOU can think whatever you want.

I agree with the poster who said they enjoyed Schickel's "Men Who Made The Movies" but his writing is "meh". I have an absolutely horrible book of his the used bookstore won't even take.

 

I love Citizen Kane and many of the other "over-rate-eds" mentioned here (and I'm female)

While other films, heralded as "great", I simply don't care for. I don't need to ever see Dr Zhivago again.But I'd never talk anyone out of watching it themselves and might even give it another try if offered a 35mm projection in a theater.

 

Critics have a right to say whatever their educated opinion is (the one poster said "flimsy" to evidence provided, ha!) and to Schickel, the hoopla over some film eludes him.

So what?

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Huh? I didn't need to be in early Rome to know that GLADIATOR was unrealistic; I didn't need to be in prehistoric times to know that ONE MILLION YEARS B.C. is unrealistic .... I didn't ... well you get the point.

 

One didn't have to live through the depression to know that the Tom Joad character is completely unrealistic along with those treacly, overly composed speeches. Puh-leeze.

 

 

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I just disagree. 42rd Street couldn't be more "stagy." And the performances are so wooden they make Keanu Reeves appear animated. And the singing and dancing? Poor Ruby Keeler is a terrible singer and her dancing? Meh. It might have made a good drama but as a muscial it's a joke.

 

Lots of people hate GRAPES OF WRATH. It's so easily parodied because it, and Steinbeck, are so laughable. It's so long and dull and those Fonda speeches are completely unrealistic. It's also so black and white in its depiction of the characters; there is absolutely no gray.

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Grauitous personal attacks about other poster's parents is really uncalled for.

 

If you actually read what I said, I think 42nd STREET is overrated because it's bad musical. If made as a straight film, it might have been good. The musical performers in the film are woefully bad.

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You can't blame the Academy for that but the individual countries that submit the entries each year. If they're picking films to represent their country that are not "represent of what's going on in world cinema" (and what do you actually mean by that?) then only those countries are to blame. Of course, if what you mean are those obscure, weird Asian films being made today well, I doubt must people would want to see that dreck.

 

I don't see how one could argue that films like SECRET IN THEIR EYES or IN A BETTER WORLD are not great foreign films.

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"But 42nd Street? Are you kidding? *Must have been tough on your mother, not having any children*."

 

Grauitous personal attacks about other poster's parents is really uncalled for.

 

If you actually read what I said, I think 42nd STREET is overrated because it's bad musical. If made as a straight film, it might have been good. The musical performers in the film are woefully bad.

 

The sentence you seem to be offended by, "*Must have been tough on your mother, not having any children*", was the famous comeback by Ginger "Anytime Annie" Rogers, in response to another chorus girl's disparaging comment of "*Getta load of Minnie the Mountaineer*". I was using it totally tongue in cheek, and no offense was intended.

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My pick for most overrated film is VERTIGO by Alfred Hitchcock. I heard about it for years and finally saw it. It was just Hitch and his sexual obsessions with a minor mystery script wrapped around it.

 

And I LOVE LOVE LOVE Hitchcock! This one seriously underwhelmed me.

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Totally agree re: Touch of Evil, Vertigo, and Citizen Kane. Isn't it strange how some people view pieces of art, vs. how WE view pieces of art? It's just strange to sit down and watch one of these films, expecting a masterpiece, and then being bored to tears. I especially can't stand Touch of Evil. Why, oh why is this considered great film? Also, I guess I should admit that the Third Man also bored me. Ok, enough. Have at it, folks!

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> {quote:title=ValentineXavier wrote:}{quote}

> > {quote:title=Dargo wrote:}{quote}

> > > {quote:title=AndyM108 wrote:}{quote}Most overrated:

> > > ...Duck Soup...

> > Duck Soup??? DUCK SOUP!!!

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> > "You REALIZE, of course, that this means WAR!"...don't cha Andy?! :P

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> > ;)

> > You've found an ally. *Duck Soup* is great!

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Well, I'm soytenly glad to hear this, VX. I think with you and I as allies, this'll be like Freedonia and Sylvania joining forces to rid this scourge of an idea submitted by this pipsqueak Andy that *Duck Soup* is somehow "overrated"!

 

(...just remember, we'll be fighting for this movie's honor...which is probably more than IT ever did!)

 

 

;)

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