Jump to content
 
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Your Thoughts About Forum Flamewars


Guest TCMWebAdmin

Recommended Posts

*The following does not necessarily represent the views of the TCM network.*

 

The level of vitriol and ugliness around here is a bit high. In a community of people who watch TCM and love movies, it seems odd to me that some people can't keep from posting nasty and unpleasant comments about each other.

 

No one posting here (including myself) has the absolute right to do so. There is no absolute freedom of expression here and there is content that the forum's code of conduct expressely forbids. TCM reserves the right to remove any content and ban any user at any time. You agree to be governed by that policy when you post here: It doesn't matter whether you like it or not.

 

These forums do exist so that TCM viewers can share their opinions, positive and negative, about the network and the movies it shows. They do not exist so that you can post negative comments about other users.

 

That said... why do you think *you* should be able to be rude, mean, cruel, flippant, disrespectful, etc. about other users? If you disagree with someone else, why can't you just make your objections known without resorting to insults? If you dislike someone else, why do you feel you have to engage with them? How does a post about *2001* turn into a hate fest?

 

No recriminations... share what you think. I'm genuinely interested and I'm not going to hold what you say here against you. Although, I suppose I will have to put you on post-moderation if you can't be nice about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

quote: That said... why do you think you should be able to be rude, mean, cruel, flippant, disrespectful, etc. about other users?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Saaay! I always liked him!

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjhhlMnH_Xu5ejt3yxE7k

 

(...you WERE talkin' about J.C. "Flippant" here, weren't ya Michael???)

 

;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, btw Mike...would it be okay if I was kinda sorta "flippant" about how it seems I have less than a 50-50 chance of signin' into your website's message board here lately???

 

(...in OTHER words my friend...WHAT'S THE FREAKIN' HOLDUP WITH FIXIN' THIS HERE SERVER O' YOURS, HUH???!!!)

 

ROFL

Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than derailing the sort of serious plea for sanity I was trying to make, no I don't mind.

 

I know the fact that people are having problems logging in is of serious concern to folks at TCM, as it should be. It's not my server, I don't have the ability to fix it myself, or even influence the process beyond reporting problems. All I do know for sure is that it's turned out to be a lot more complex than it appeared at first to be, which is why solving the problem is taking a long time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just curious, why was the 2001 thread deleted? I went to see any replies to the last post I made and saw it missing. The OP only saw a weird connection between the 2001 movie and JFK and most of the replies were debates over the subject but I didn't see what you call a flame war. Disagreements yes but nastiness no.

 

At times I wish you only LOCK a thread with the reasoning why instead of deleting it unless it is very ugly, racist or something along that line.

 

My last reply was about the Animal Planet documentary "Mermaids the Body Found" and it started off with a conspiracy theory regarding the navy. Thought the timing of it was great and the subject matter not your average Bigfoot sighting which I am *bored* of.

 

Will you stop poking me with that stick!!

s-MERMAIDS-THE-BODY-FOUND-large.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How do you feel about CREATIVE unpleasant comments?

 

 

ANYbody can easily resort to the lowest common denominator when spitting out vitriol. It takes a creative mind to do so WITHOUT at first seeming crude and nasty. It's something I always strive for, not always successfully however.

 

 

Some people who post here do so in a way that instantly raises the ire of other forum members, like much of the stuff TCMfan23 puts up. Perhaps a gentle PM reminder from the WebAdmin to more carefully word threads about his likes and dislikes might help.

 

 

Many people have such strong feelings about things unrelated to classic movies, yet NOT neccessarily political or religious that they REACT rather than calmly respond. These might be the more difficult to head off at the pass, because until they REACT, there's no way of knowing what's coming.

 

 

I am a member of a few other online message boards that cover a wide variety of different subject matter, and THEIR administrators voice the same difficulties. Being an administrator HAS to be a tough row to hoe. I don't envy your position.

 

 

Sepiatone

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would truly like to know why sometimes you merely "lock" a thread, and sometimes you delete it altogether.

When it's locked, you can see what's going on...you can even click it and read it up to the point where it was locked ( I think). It's usually pretty clear why it has been.

 

But, when a thread is simply deleted, it gives me a weird creepy feeling. A Twilight-zonish feeling.

It's as though the thread never existed, there's no evidence that it did. It's simply been "disappeared".

 

 

I'm curious as to the explanation about this distinction between locking threads and "disappearing" them. How do you decide when to do one thing , and when the other?

 

 

The main thing that bothers me about deleting a thread without any comment whatsoever, is, it lacks "transparency". There's no acknowlegement as to why the thread was deleted, or even to the fact that it ever existed at all.

Pourquoi the difference?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wish you would be more proactive in shutting threads that are deliberately provocative, and I don't mean something like "I don't care for(insert name/film)" but those that add "and if you do you're stupid." We all can't be expected to like the same things; that would be dull. Making negative assumptions about others' taste is bad form

Link to post
Share on other sites

Blame George Brent?

 

I wonder if everyone appreciates the action of a moderator TALKING to their posters and asking their opinion on a subject? This is huge. Well, I appreciate it.

 

As I've mentioned so many times, it 'might' be the liberal attitude of this board. Many, including myself, have come to take it for granted. I was not being facetious when I began with George Brent, as this thread would not have been tolerated by the moderators of many years ago on TCM.

 

As you have observed, Michael, anonymity does NOT encourage people to be gentle, kind, mannerly, calm, or pleasant. IF the subject is an already inflammatory one, e.g., politics or religion, opinions become the groundwork for wars.

 

You have done a herculean job, Michael, in walking the fine line between shutting down threads, deleting threads, cautioning posters, moderating posters, and banning posters. Again, in the past, the moderators took the last as the first line of defense. Another board which is to the right of Attila the Hun not only bans posters, but won't let them re-register, based on their ISP.

 

Am I recommending this? Absolutely not. But I am afraid I don't have the answer for you, Michael. The natural, normal reaction of a human, if given the chance, is to return an eye for an eye. Is there any way to stop it here, based on, as you've noted, the level of vitriol around here lately?

 

I doubt it, but the final difficult judgement is yours, since this is not our board. Thank you for asking.

 

Oh, and btw, a smiley face does not make an insult sting less.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're not going to hold it against us . . .

 

In my opinion, your leniency is contributing to the problems.

 

A quick deletion of any post mentioning current politics would prevent a lot of grief. If someone wants to compare what's happening now to what happened in a movie, I think the comments should be made in a political forum, not here. Users of a political forum are going to be more astute about the issues, they're going to appreciate the comparison more, and it could introduce some of them to the richness of classic movies. Here, it's only going to cause problems.

 

The same goes for religion and a number of other issues.

 

I belong to a variety of forums (and even mod one when they need me), and this is the only place I know of where a moderator can call for tolerance and be blatantly attacked for their post. Everywhere else, disrespectful posts are quickly deleted and the user shown the door.

 

The rules for the forum are plain. People shouldn't be allowed to argue with them in the forum. If they see a problem, they should address their concerns directly to corporate. Posts about rules should be deleted or moved to an admin board.

 

Yes, I'm Draconian, but it's my experience that 1% of users cause 99% of the problems. Get rid of them, and you'll only have to deal with a few dust ups instead of flamewars.

 

Anyone can lose their cool for a moment. It can be suggested they rewrite their post (actually put their comment into non-offensive terms, not just delete it). Failure to do that deserves a suspension.

 

What do I think should be done to the consistent troublemakers? Cattle prods and thumbscrews come to mind.

 

Barring that, quickly and consistently banning them will help dramatically. Some will come back under a new username, but when it becomes evident they can't get away with a lot, they'll eventually give up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

These is an element of subjectivity to moderating. Sometimes what seems black and white to one person looks like a shade of grey to another. What seems draconian to one will be too easy for another. When I take action, I am not beyond discussing the issue or changing my mind if I'm convinced that I've made a mistake.

 

If it has to be done, I prefer locking a thread and posting the reason why. If it's something I've already posted general warning about more than once (re: Politics), I'm just going to delete it. In the case of the 2001 thread, it simply dissolved into a rather vicious exchange by two users, and I didn't see the value of letting it stand.

 

There is a difference between a creative zinger and just being outright rude, and that again is a subjective distinction. Humor translates badly in text-only conversations, and what one person thinks is hysterical and harmless is often misconstrued.

 

In the end, my goal is very simply to maintain a sense of respect in discussions, so that all users, new and old, feel comfortable participating and sharing their opinions. Yes, some opinions do seem absolutely goofy to me and I wonder why people who post them would think anyone cares. But, as long as they don't violate the Code of Conduct, I have no reason to delete them.

 

For what its worth, not everything I do is visible to the community as a whole. I've begun using post-moderation instead of outright bans, but you're not going to know that someone is on post-moderation unless they themselves choose to make it public. The point is to get someone's attention and at least be able to hold a dialogue about why there's a problem.

 

Which is why I created this discussion. I'm happy to answer your questions, but I really want to hear from the folks who feel they should have the right to be as mean and nasty as they want to be.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Flamewars exist because the posters involved feel the overwhelming need to get in the last word. The best way to deal with this is for everyone else to step aside and let them argue until they tire themselves out. It’s like a hockey fight.

 

If that fails, I would suggest the death penalty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My only problem here hasn't been flame wars cropping up in a topic, it has actually been one or two posters seeming to actually seek me out to start something. At first I stupidly played into it and it became a flame war for a bit, but I've since learned to be non-responsive when the other poster seems to be baiting a trap.

 

Most recently, a poster feigned ignorance on a subject and when it was explained from my point of view he immediately told me my response was silly and not thought out and proceeded to show actual knowledge he earlier had professed not to have. I fell for the bait that day.

 

Interestingly, I had not seen that poster before nor since that day. He was a true hit and run.

 

The problem with the examples I've listed is that I don't think anything can be done about them. Anonymity allows people to come in and be uncivil. If you ban them, they'll still find a new way in if so inclined.

 

The flame wars between regular posters in a thread, however, should be able to be brought under control since those posters, one would believe, really want to stay here and discuss movies. They would want to avoid being banned, one would think.

 

My question to you would be, how far can one go and stay within the guidelines? There is someone here who seems to post rather outrageous subjects regularly and, at times, my sarcasm gets the best of me when it comes to these topics. He means no harm and neither do I. How much is too much and will I know it when I see it?

 

Edited by: ginnyfan on Sep 3, 2012 2:57 PM

Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael,

 

Thank you for attempting to address this topic head on.

 

It's a problem which has, on *MANY* occasions, kept me from posting and, in some cases, from even bothering to read certain threads because by title alone they seem designed only to generate arguments among commenters or offer some jaw-droppingly ignorant criticism of TCM's programmers.

 

In the year I've been posting here in "General Discussions" and in "Hot Topics," I've become extremely disheartened that for every genuinely interesting bit of information or insightful observation, there must be at least ten pointless comments -- infantile complaints that TCM is showing movies the commenter does not like, base attacks on a star's talent, or digressions into topics specifically forbidden by the Code of Conduct.

 

Instead of intelligent and enlightening commentary about the classic movies we're seeing, SO many threads become dominated by commenters who seem intent on derailing any such discussion.

 

(Of particular note are the vast number of embarrassingly childish comments about George Brent's rear end which might be tolerable if they were only relegated to the thread created to discuss that riveting topic. Why they've been allowed to intrude in other threads without being deleted by TCMWebAdmin is a mystery to me.)

 

> I really want to hear from the folks who feel they should have the right to be as mean and nasty as they want to be.

 

For the life of me, I can't understand why. The reasons incivility is epidemic these days are many but, ultimately, unimportant. What really matters is finding a solution and it hardly seems likely that "the folks who feel they should have the right to be as mean and nasty as they want to be" will suddenly be convinced to become mature and respectful and start posting with restraint and consideration toward others.For those people, posting here has little to do with classic cinema and much more to do with getting some attention by stirring up contrived controversies. While some may find this entertaining, as one who's been "targeted for attack" with insults and snark, what should be an opportunity to discuss classic our love of movies instead becomes a humiliating and disheartening experience.*I agree whole-heartedly with Capuchin's post.* Either TCMWebAdmin takes a far more active role in policing these boards or else they should take a completely hands-off approach and allow the "discussions" here to descend even further into childishness, clique-ishness, peurile humor and bullying.

 

Finally, any attempt to turn this conversation into some sort of attack on "freedom of expression" is farcical -- there can be no freedom without personal responsibility. Posting comments here is a privilege similar to being invited into someone's home. I sincerely doubt people would express themselves with such purposeful discourtesy and obvious intent to stir up trouble were they not able to hide behind anonymity.

 

P.S. *Has there been any sort of outage of these forums for the last few hours*, or is it just me ? I've tried repeatedly to access any page in the TCM message boards only to have the page time-out every time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

> {quote:title=TCMWebAdmin wrote:}{quote}These is an element of subjectivity to moderating. Sometimes what seems black and white to one person looks like a shade of grey to another. What seems draconian to one will be too easy for another. When I take action, I am not beyond discussing the issue or changing my mind if I'm convinced that I've made a mistake.

>

> If it has to be done, I prefer locking a thread and posting the reason why. If it's something I've already posted general warning about more than once (re: Politics), I'm just going to delete it. In the case of the 2001 thread, it simply dissolved into a rather vicious exchange by two users, and I didn't see the value of letting it stand.

>

>

>

>

>

> There is a difference between a creative zinger and just being outright rude, and that again is a subjective distinction. Humor translates badly in text-only conversations, and what one person thinks is hysterical and harmless is often misconstrued.

>

>

>

>

>

> In the end, my goal is very simply to maintain a sense of respect in discussions, so that all users, new and old, feel comfortable participating and sharing their opinions. Yes, some opinions do seem absolutely goofy to me and I wonder why people who post them would think anyone cares. But, as long as they don't violate the Code of Conduct, I have no reason to delete them.

>

>

>

>

>

> For what its worth, not everything I do is visible to the community as a whole. I've begun using post-moderation instead of outright bans, but you're not going to know that someone is on post-moderation unless they themselves choose to make it public. The point is to get someone's attention and at least be able to hold a dialogue about why there's a problem.

>

>

>

>

>

> Which is why I created this discussion. I'm happy to answer your questions, but I really want to hear from the folks who feel they should have the right to be as mean and nasty as they want to be.

>

 

I hope it's not me you were waiting for?

 

 

I hope I wasn't one of the two users in the 2001 thread? I can't remember...

 

 

I read the TCM Code of Conduct before writing this and it does state clearly that TCM can do whatever it wants whenever it wants with no warning or explanation.

So that's fine. Really when it comes down to it, if you don't like the rules you can go elsewhere...

It's hard to not make the mistake of taking this board too seriously.

It's not worth getting angry or upset over.

 

 

But my concern is about people who choose not to complain about something against the code of conduct and that their refusal to complain allows abusers a free pass, so to speak.

On the other hand, those who do complain seem to have an unfair advantage over others.

I suppose it would be nice is TCMAdmin enforced all the rules strictly at all times.

But I'm not sure that is possible.

I suppose by not complaining to TCMAdmin and choosing to "handle it" by yourself by posting your objections or a contrary view, that does start flamewars and leads to more trouble.

 

 

Also, I understand this is not a new problem and has a very long history here with this message board? So I'm not sure how to solve it?

 

 

I suppose it would help by sticking to TCM classic movies and other related films, and being fair in comments. Some users seem to think it ok to denigrate or subtly insult other users. They must consider it a game. Or to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary. Or attacking a user's opinion using humour. Some users seem to use words and references that are offensive today (maybe they are unaware of it 'tho)?

 

 

I'm sure not perfect and make mistakes and tend to be easily baited into arguments, which is another problem. Some users seem to play a game by baiting others?

 

 

Anyway, some items in the TCM Code of Conduct are below with my highlighting:

 

 

 

(a)The following are examples of the types of content, conduct, or uses that are prohibited under the Code:

 

 

Any content or use that is offensive to the online community, such as *sexually explicit content, or content that promotes obscenity, pedophilia, racism, bigotry, religious intolerance, intolerance of minorities, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual,* regardless of whether such use or content takes place within the Site, or takes place outside the Site but relates to the Site in any manner;

 

 

(I've come across on the message board things I find offensive regarding bigotry and racism in the past, yet I have never complained to TCMAdmin. Due to that it tends to get a pass or others end up starting a flame war. It would be nice if TCMAdmin enforced this rule to delete anything concerning any bigotry or racism or intolerance, etc., as stated in the rule above.)

 

 

Any excessive posting, including without limitation, posting the same thing multiple times (in the same or different thread or forum) or *posting content or comments that have no relevance to what is being discussed by others, is prohibited.*

 

 

( I've found this to be a common occurrence and annoyance in the past in threads. Again, I have never complained to TCMAdmin. But again, would be nice if TCMAdmin enforced this rule regularly.)

 

 

*Any content that promotes information that is false, misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous;*

 

 

(Again, much of that, especially promoting information that is false or misleading, on the threads. Again, would be nice if TCMAdmin enforced this regularly.)

 

 

Anyway, what I am offended by another might not be offended by. But if that person complains and I do not, what use is a Code of Conduct?

 

 

The use of anonymous user names is a common problem on the Internet. I choose not to use a fake name. But others may have very good reasons for doing so.

I don't see how that will ever change or what TCM can do about it.

 

 

Not sure if anything I've written is of any help, probably not.

 

 

But think we should just stick to movies and avoid snide or condescending remarks and humour and try, it is hard, to treat each other with respect.

If you don't like it here, guess you can start your own message board...

 

 

(I also suppose a good thing to do is that if you come across a thread about a movie you don't like, etc., stay away from that thread instead of voicing a contrary opinion that may start a flamewar.

If you think a thread is not for your taste, stay away from it. Why post, and I'm guilty of this, something that will just start trouble and won't change anybody's views anyway...)

 

 

P.S. Think I'm just going to ignore threads that aren't my thing from now on, despite the urge to post a comment, and just be more positive about comments I write in general and threads I do participate in.

 

Edited by: RMeingast on Sep 3, 2012 10:06 PM

Link to post
Share on other sites

Eeh! Have any of you folks around here ever read the stuff posted on the Yahoo News feedback forums or any of their equivalents? Now THERE'S ya some REAL "Flamewars".

 

Compared to those, THIS PLACE is filled with potential nominees for the U.S. Department of State AMBASSADORSHIPS!

 

(...think I'm KIDDIN'???...then just take a sec to check out the morons...err...I mean the folks posting on THOSE!!!)

 

LOL

Link to post
Share on other sites

> (Of particular note are the vast number of embarrassingly childish comments about George Brent's rear end which might be tolerable if they were only relegated to the thread created to discuss that riveting topic. Why they've been allowed to intrude in other threads without being deleted by TCMWebAdmin is a mystery to me.)

>

 

 

I, for one, didn't understand the references to Brent when I first started posting and I thought it was "spam" until someone explained it to me.

Now it's harmless to me as I understand it's an "inside joke" on the message board.

But "hijacking" threads seems a common occurrence here on the message board.

So common, I'm used to it by now, 'tho it's against the Code of Conduct.

And that's a problem when the Code of Conduct isn't seen to be evenly enforced.

Some people seem to get away with things against the Code of Conduct while others get punished for offences. It doesn't engender respect for the rules and TCMAdmin when that happens or is seen to happen.

 

I agree with the rest of Valeska's comments too, even the one about freedom of expression, other than from a Canadian's point of view, we think Americans allow pretty much everything...

 

Probably best just to ignore stuff you don't have a taste for and start your own thread or make comments in threads you do fancy... And maybe some help from users and TCMAdmin as it is so easy to get drawn into some things you really wouldn't otherwise get drawn into...

Link to post
Share on other sites

> {quote:title=Dargo2 wrote:}{quote}Eeh! Have any of you folks around here ever read the stuff posted on the Yahoo News feedback forums or any of their equivalents? Now THERE'S ya some REAL "Flamewars".

>

> Compared to those, THIS PLACE is filled with potential nominees for the U.S. Department of State AMBASSADORSHIPS!

>

> (...think I'm KIDDIN'???...then just take a sec to check out the morons...err...I mean the folks posting on THOSE!!!)

>

> LOL

 

 

Yes, Facebook can be a disaster zone and people are supposed to use their real names there!

 

Sense of humour is important on this message board and helpful reminders from other users by PM or from TCMAdmin by PM might solve a lot of problems here...

 

The political stuff that was deleted last week I should've stayed away from but I just wanted to get my perspective in as a non-American and also try and cool things down - to no avail.

But I should've ignored it. Oh well... Live and learn...

 

I mean, this message board isn't a job that provides a livelihood, it doesn't save lives or lead to discoveries that enhance humanity for the better (I don't think), it's really just a place to shoot the breeze. Like sitting around a campfire...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Michael,

 

As an Old War Horse who goes to other sites than this to express my

opinions, I have noticed many are becoming politically correct so as

to be nice to all posters.

 

That is the lay of the land right now and more than likely will remain even

more so in the future.

 

I find no fault with your attempt to do that here. However, you will

never please all the many interests and agendas.

 

I think you already know that.

 

Jake

Link to post
Share on other sites

> {quote:title=JakeHolman wrote:}{quote}Hi Michael,

>

> As an Old War Horse who goes to other sites than this to express my

> opinions, I have noticed many are becoming politically correct so as

> to be nice to all posters.

>

> That is the lay of the land right now and more than likely will remain even

> more so in the future.

>

> I find no fault with your attempt to do that here. However, you will

> never please all the many interests and agendas.

>

> I think you already know that.

>

> Jake

 

 

Well, I'm used to "political uncorrectness" and, again, have never complained to TCMAdmin about anybody on the message board and I don't intend to, either.

 

I tended in the past to post my opinion and that can lead to flamewars.

Probably best just to ignore something you don't agree with - hold your tongue, so to speak - and move on. And that can be difficult, especially with the type of people we have here who are motivated enough to join this message board and generally have something to say about movies and other things.

I've found that it's a great place to refreshen debating skills. And also to work on repartee.

But people have many reasons for being here on the board...

 

Yes, we have to not become so sensitive that nobody can discuss anything for fear of offending.

Reminds me of "Fahrenheit 451" in which people become so sensitive to what is written in books that the government decides to ban all books so nobody can be offended by anything in them.

Television takes the place of books and the TV programs are so completely inoffensive to anybody that they basically act as a drug on people, putting them into a trance, etc....

So I guess that's Bradbury's vision of the end result of a society where nobody wants to offend, or be offended, by anything...

 

So if TCMAdmin strictly enforces all the rules, all the time, so that nobody is offended by anything, then this board will become pretty boring, pretty fast. On the other hand, to allow laxity, leads to flamewars and uproars.

Think people need to PM others if there's a problem or misunderstanding.

Many debates on message board could probably go into PMs, really...

Why does everybody else on the board have to view the toing and froing??

Link to post
Share on other sites

But I've been attacked worse in PM's than I ever have on the actual boards. In fact, the person is still posting here under their third or fourth name. It got so bad that I had to leave for a few months. There's no reason that needs to happen, and if there's vigilant moderation, then more people would feel comfortable participating.

Link to post
Share on other sites

RM wrote: So if TCMAdmin strictly enforces all the rules, all the time, so that nobody is offended by anything, then this board will become pretty boring, pretty fast.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Exactly!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RM wrote: Many debates on message board could probably go into PMs, really...

Why does everybody else on the board have to view the toing and froing??

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because it's often VERY fun reading the thoughts of people who are so cocksure of their opinion...THAT'S why!

 

(...and of which I somehow primarily find to be offered up for public consumption by those who say they "hate political correctness...ironic, ain't it?!) ;)

 

LOL

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hi Helen,

 

I'm gonna let my Southern Male Chivalry come out and hope you

might understand where Jake is coming from.

 

Under no circumstances should any PM threats be directed to you.

The PM is the real deal with a move to really communicate with you.

 

No way.

 

By the way, Jake Loves women even though some don't quite understand him.

 

B-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

© 2020 Turner Classic Movies Inc. A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Settings
×
×
  • Create New...