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Your Thoughts About Forum Flamewars


Guest TCMWebAdmin

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> {quote:title=Dargo2 wrote:}{quote}

> IF dinosaurs DID exist in today's world, well in America anyway, wouldn't that fall under the jurisdiction of the United States Department of the Interior???

 

If you opened a Dino-Burger franchise, the FDA would be involved.

 

I think it's the EPA who would decide if they belong on the endangered species list.

 

The State Department would have to rule whether they're legal aliens, since they couldn't have had the right papers when they migrated here.

 

In the end, I think just about every department would have, or want, a say.

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> {quote:title=TCMWebAdmin wrote:}{quote}

> > This is not correct. The prohibition against political topics specifically states:

> "Discussion of modern political topics is strictly forbidden on the Turner Classic Movies Message Boards."

>

>

> I used the word modern specifically. "Modern political topics" does not equate to Turner Classic Movies in any way, shape or form. If it's part of the current political "discussion" in the real world, it's not for discussion here. There are any number of places you can go to discuss it. But, not here.

>

>

> And, it's not up for debate. If I see it, I delete it. If someone can't stop posting it, I can stop them from posting.

>

Yes, but probably still a good idea to be careful about discussing politics in old movies aired on TCM... I guess it could lead to "modern" politics...

But no problem... I understand perfectly... And I understand the intent behind the prohibition.

It does make sense because in the deleted and "locked down" thread things were very nasty...

 

All about having respect and being courteous to other users... Best to zip it on anything controversial that might offend... There are other websites for that on the Internet...

 

 

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> {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

>

> They are two very different audiences and serve two different purposes. The message boards have been in existence for over twelve years, the CFU is only about three years old. There's not a lot of crossover.

>

 

Yes, thanks. There's lots that I don't know. I pay to subscribe to TCM (as do other family members), buy products sold by TCM online (as do my family members and other relatives), and I mostly use the "General Discussion" forum, but lots of stuff I'm not aware of...

 

I'll have to learn more about the Film Union...

 

P.S. Since I already pay for other TCM products, maybe there should be a user fee to join the message board?

If people actually had to pay dough to belong, maybe they would be better behaved??

Maybe not?? Just an idea??

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> {quote:title=RMeingast wrote:}{quote}

> > {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

> >

> > They are two very different audiences and serve two different purposes. The message boards have been in existence for over twelve years, the CFU is only about three years old. There's not a lot of crossover.

> > Yes, thanks. There's lots that I don't know. I pay to subscribe to TCM (as do other family members), buy products sold by TCM online (as do my family members and other relatives), and I mostly use the "General Discussion" forum, but lots of stuff I'm not aware of...

> >

> I'll have to learn more about the Film Union...

>

>

>

>

> P.S. Since I already pay for other TCM products, maybe there should be a user fee to join the message board?

> If people actually had to pay dough to belong, maybe they would be better behaved??

> Maybe not?? Just an idea??

>

>

>

>

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>

 

 

I forgot, I paid for the monthly magazine for a relative too. More than $20.00 for a year up in Canadaland... When it first arrived, I couldn't believe how tiny it is... Oh well...

 

Suppose if you subscribe to the monthly magazine, included in the cost could be an annual membership fee for the TCM message board? The price would go up - only a bit, I hope, and TCM could take payment through the online TCM shop or through the monthly magazine account.

 

Alternately, they could offer access to the message board for an annual fee through the TCM shop.

It would be the same as buying any other TCM product.

And just as with buying video games online to download, there would be a form of rules and regulations you would have to "agree to" when you paid your dough.

 

May not be a good idea but I think charging people money for access might make a difference.

If people misbehaved and were banned they would lose their money...

 

Edited by: RMeingast on Sep 5, 2012 5:46 PM

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Thanks for the thread Michael.

 

I'm not trying to be a wise a** but if a flame war started within it, would you have locked it up? Seeing another thread go that route today sort of brought the possibility to mind.

 

 

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Considering how many complaints there have been on the bd over this year about the extra money we all pay to have TCM included in our cable packages, I doubt there would be much support for paying a fee to post on the message bd.. Why would posters who know how to behave and be civil on a message bd.agree to such a thing? Most of us can barely afford the cable bill as is. Posters who create problems need to be banned, penalizing the rest of us for their misbehavior here is not a good idea.

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> Clore wrote;

>

> I'm not trying to be a wise a** but if a flame war started within it, would you have locked it up? Seeing another thread go that route today sort of brought the possibility to mind.

>

I agree with Michael that the thread that got locked was like a really bad farce more than anything else.

 

Sword fighting while blindfolded is extremely difficult. :^0

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I don't even know what the cause happened to be, I don't look in such cases. When I see a thread is locked, I'm not even going to bother since there's nothing that I can contribute at that point. Saves me some possible frustration.

 

 

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> Suppose if you subscribe to the monthly magazine, included in the cost could be an annual membership fee for the TCM message board? The price would go up - only a bit, I hope, and TCM could take payment through the online TCM shop or through the monthly magazine account.

 

> Alternately, they could offer access to the message board for an annual fee through the TCM shop. It would be the same as buying any other TCM product. And just as with buying video games online to download, there would be a form of rules and regulations you would have to "agree to" when you paid your dough.

 

> May not be a good idea but I think charging people money for access might make a difference. If people misbehaved and were banned they would lose their money...

 

I have mentioned this before in several different topics over several threads. Charging folks a fee to join a message board has been talked about infinitum. Ultimately any message board should be free and should allow participants the freedom to post their thoughts in a kindly manner.

 

Charging a fee in my opinion would discourage folks from posting here at all. You might get some of the hard-core, long-time users here to pay, but then all you would have is a finite number of posters.

 

Any day you come here you see that there is less than 5% users compared to guests. My question is this: Why is that?

 

Are they afraid to comment? Or are they just innocent bystanders waiting for the opportunity to join?

 

My feeling is that at the top of the message boards along with the ONLINE USERS info should be some sort of box indicating how easy the process is to join in the discussions. Maybe many of the guests have read over the Code of Conduct and feel that the code is too limiting for their likes. Or they might have read some of the flaming threads and have concluded that they want no part of that kind of discussion. Or they just may not know what the process is. It is a shame really. Because I know many friends who would love to come here but for some reason they refuse to join. IT IS FREE!!!!

 

You look at any message board or comments section of many newspaper websites and or any other media sites and anything goes. Here at least there is moderation. Maybe not enough moderation but there is moderation. You go on face Book and anything really does go there. You can write anything you like and there really is no moderation, especially when politics is discussed. I have lost several people who I thought were friends who disagreed with me over a political discussion. And this is sad.

 

As far as misbehaving is concerned there has been countless threads that all out war has existed. For many years the message board did not have the type of moderation that Michael is now providing. But he is only one person. He may have a group of individuals who monitor the message boards, or maybe he is the only one moderating. If he is he can not be everywhere all the time.

 

Ultimately the responsibility for good behavior lies with the message board members. However with what usually happens here on the boards once a discussion starts going down an ugly path it is very hard not to respond. And that is where the trouble lies.

 

For the vast majority of the time most all discussions here on the boards are quite civil. It is only those times when someone decides to be rude or become more active in a discussion by becoming unruly or offering up some negativity that the thread goes astray.

 

Usually this happens when one poster writes something and that is followed by another poster defending the first poster. There are two posters here that are now involved with this almost everyday. And that is the problem the way I see it.

 

You bring everything you know to a discussion and make arguments in support of your opinion and it still does not matter. They will argue their side of the point until you are made a scapegoat or a defender of TCM. They want nothing to do with facts.

 

And that is the other problem. Some posters write stuff here that can not be backed up with facts simply because they do not take the time to do the proper research. And why is that? My belief is that they could care less that what they write is not factual. All they want is to disrupt a conversation so that their name appears at the top of each thread. That is important to them. Usually we refer to these folks as trolls. But that is another matter.

 

Edited by: fxreyman on Sep 8, 2012 6:41 PM

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re: *"In a community of people who watch TCM and love movies, it seems odd to me that some people can't keep from posting nasty and unpleasant comments about each other."* - TCMWebAdmin

 

Maybe this explains "why?".

 

_On Being Nothing_

NYTimes, September 09

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/on-being-nothing/

 

Some days I feel so insubstantial that I am startled by signs of my visible presence in the world. On a recent afternoon walk, when my thoughts on these matters had gone somewhat too far, a dog rooting in the grass turned its head and barked at me. I turned my head toward the sound in surprise: I had made the rooting dog look up - therefore I did exist. True, the dog hated me, but in its bark I heard a vicious compliment, for it is better to be hated than ignored, hate being a form of acknowledgement, albeit negative.

 

Society is adroit at disillusioning newcomers, and many self-assured children grow up to be bitter adults. But bitterness, instead of a form of disillusionment, is really the refusal to give up your childhood illusions of importance. Ignored instead of welcomed by the world, you fault the world as blind and evil in order not to fault yourself as naive. Bitterness is a child's coddling narcissism within the context of an adult's harsh life. Instead, I know that the world only tramples me as a street crowd does an earthworm - not out of malice or stupidity, but because no one sees it. Thus my pain is not to feel wrongly slighted, but to feel rightly slighted.

*Brian Jay Stanley*

 

For far too many, the validation from "barking" at one another offers a respite from the larger phenomenon of being ignored earthworm-like in this increasingly insular society. Besides, if there is value or reward attached to behaving like barking dogs, then it is foolhardy to believe canines can be simultaneously humane. It is not possible. Isn't this the moral of Dr. Moreau.

 

I guess we are all living on an *Island Of Lost Souls*.

 

Kyle In Hollywood

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I have refrained from commenting on this thread, because it was not a pressing issue in my opinion. But I do have some general thoughts, and I feel it would be constructive to offer them up.

 

First, I think generally speaking that there are people who do not know how to handle adversity well, and when they post an unpopular opinion, which they consider sacred, they get bent out of shape when the masses descend and pulverize a post or two they had painstakingly written. That is understandable to some extent. This lack of handling adversity involves a failure to communicate with ego in check and sometimes, more often than not, a failure to have a sense of humor about posting an unpopular opinion. Thus, it may quickly degenerate into a series of recriminations and borderline cases of cyber-bullying.

 

Another thing, and this may be the flip side of the equation, but let's say that Person X is genuinely misunderstood and did not post a point clearly. Then, we get all these other people jumping all over the original post without offering the poster a chance to clarify. Again, it degenerates into a mud-slinging contest, and that is on a good day.

 

I think we need more empathy and more patience, to allow others to clarify posts. Also, if someone is being unfairly attacked, then he or she really should be allowed a rebuttal to sensibly post a reply. I know from my own experience that if I just 'let something go,' then I run the risk of allowing a tiny little snowball to go down the mountainside. If I do not have a chance to restate or clarify, I have a sudden avalanche and because I value my reputation and my right to freely express opinions respectfully, I get very anxious not to defend a particular point or online posting, but to defend my right to communicate. I just cannot let someone else step all over that right. And I am sure others do not want their reputations tarnished and their right to express themselves clearly hindered either.

 

Finally, a little trick that I do is that if I dislike what someone else has posted I make a mental note of it and I force myself to wait at least 12 or 18 hours (or longer if necessary) before crafting a reply. Maybe by then, I will not feel so worked up about something and I have moved on to other more productive threads. I would rather be accused of apathy than antipathy.

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Some excellent points made there, TB. Yep, I agree with ya that it seems WAY too often when someone states an opinion that seems out of the norm, they often seem to get jumped on immediately, alright.

 

(...and so now, would you STILL like to elaborate upon that whole "Tyrone Power really wanted a sex change" thing???)

 

LOL

 

;)

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> {quote:title=TCMWebAdmin wrote:}{quote}*The following does not necessarily represent the views of the TCM network.*

>

> No recriminations... share what you think. I'm genuinely interested and I'm not going to hold what you say here against you. Although, I suppose I will have to put you on post-moderation if you can't be nice about it.

Well, since I have recently been chastised I don't suppose there is much more that could happen. Well...there probably is, but here goes anyway.

 

I don't come to this board looking for a fight, but I did think that I was free to express my opinion, in reason. Evidently, I was wrong. Unfortunatley there is a pile on the dog mentality that exists on this board and it is directed at anyone who comes here with an opinion that is contrary to the majority opinion. Granted, some opinions are way out there and can be argued away with facts. But, sometimes opinions are based on perceptions. For example, one of my first confrontations on these boards dealt with the question of the existence of a TCM FILM LIBRARY. I argued that there is one while the majority argued against the existence of one. Facts were presented to support their claim, but that does not change the FACT that a TCM FILM LIBRARY is still referred to in print and on TV by ROBERT OSBORNE et al. So, who is correct? I have come to the conclusion that we both are. But, I still carry the scars from that war.

 

I have been called ignorant, called lazy, told that my opinions have no merit, or that I have no right to even ask a question. I don't doubt that there are folks here who are smarter then me, have more experience then me, and know more people then me, but they also feel that that gives them the right to be superior to me. That, they are not. I suppose it would be a perfect world if every insult was swallowed and the hurt party would just walk away and never be seen or heard from again. But, the real world does not work like that AND I DON'T. I will never use vile language or be out and out mean, but I will respond in kind. If that is not acceptable then you can ban me right now, because if I have to be afraid to respond to every post that attacks me because I might have a difference of opinion then this board is biased. I often find it funny when I scan through threads I am not participating on and I read insulting threads and when there is retaliation the original offenders act like the hurt parties. To quote Edward G. Robinson in LITTLE CAESAR "You can dish it out, but you got so you can't take it no more."

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it seems WAY too often when someone states an opinion that seems out of the norm, they often seem to get jumped on immediately, alright.

 

Hah. Ain't that the truth, Dargo. It seems Norm rules the roost here, and the rest of the cast best 'be careful'.

 

I guess since this was the last post, that everyone agrees, including those who think the only right opinion is their opinion and any other opinion has no place on this message board.

 

So, TCMAdmin, how did the experiment work out? Did you find out the answer to your original question?

 

why do you think *you *should be able to be rude, mean, cruel, flippant, disrespectful, etc. about other users?

 

Or do those who think they have the almighty right convince you that they have the almighty right to their opinions and any other opinions are not welcome and those who have any other opinions can leave if they don't agree with the bullies who think they have the almighty right to be rude, mean, cruel, flippant, disrespectful, etc. about other users?

 

Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks for the effort, though, TCMAdmin, it was an historic one on any message board I've ever seen.

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I have to go back and read what infinite said, SOUH, but one doesn't draw a line if they want a decent board with decent conversations. This board teeters on the edge, and does a fairly good job of it. There are those, like moi, who love confrontation and won't back down from bullying posters with almighty opinions who bully. There are those who will leave, and we're all the poorer for it, because they're nicer than I and less cynical than I and think better of people than I.

 

SOUH - I like your new name - some boards like TWOP draw a line that the Gestapo would have been proud of, and the board that is now defunct, I Hate Jon Seda, drew no line, and the board was in flames all the time, with good reason, and finally immolated itself.

 

There are companies like PBS that shut down their boards because they can't manage them, and places like AV Club which manages to NOT censor at all while at the same time allowing conversation. I think it is because the topics are current teevee shows and the topics speed along, taking advantage of the human's natural laziness to ignore old topics.

 

This message board has the disadvantage of popular topics, which encourages the bullies to bully those who have a divergent opinion from their almighty opinions. Those who are nice and decent give up battling those who think they sit on the right hand, and those who are not never give up and incur the wrath of the almighty clique.

 

Does that answer the question? I can go on about it, as you've seen. Oh, and I hate bullies.

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Bullies.... that's an excellent word for the type of member here that is the source of most of our trouble. The following is not directed at any one person or group of persons, but to all the fine citizens of this forum:

 

Everyone is welcome to share their opinions, assuming they otherwise adhere to the code of conduct and stay away from contemporary politics. No matter how wacky or bizarre, no matter how critical of the TCM network, or supportive of it, these opinions are as valid as any other.

 

It doesn't matter how much you dislike the opinion, or the user who posted it, no one should be attacking or ridiculing the user. Questioning the opinion is fine, but it doesn't have to be done with malice, cruelty or disrespect. In fact, some of you could benefit from just NOT posting comments on every little opinion someone else posts.

 

If someone states something as fact and you know it's not, there's nothing wrong with correcting them, especially if you can provide a link to some source besides yourself. You don't have to be condescending when you do it, either.

 

Use the phrase TCM apologist or something euphamistically the same? Here's a clue for you: You're being a bully. Some folks who get slammed with that foolishness actually do know what they're talking about, and are not being disrespectful when they post. And they have the exact same right to share their opinion as anyone else does.

 

Try this trick the next time you get irritated by a post... consider carefully whether that poster actually cares about you enough to try to irritate you, or whether you're just reading something into the post that isn't there.

 

I think all of this can be summed up this way. We're here because of a shared interest in TCM and the movies it shows. The community will be much more vibrant if we choose to be respectful of each other when we post, and choose not to post when we can't be respectful.

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I also see no reason to BULLY anyone. I don't think I'VE ever done so here. I'll often mispell, or misinform, but always with some kind of caveat. Nobody knows EVERYTHING, especially ME. Often, somebody will post an opinion that others don't quite agree with, such as, "So-and-so is the BEST..."whatever. For some reason, too many can't simply reply, "Well, I don't think so, and here's why." and leave it at that. But also, people who feel strongly about something and are unshakeable in their opinions REACT strongly, without realizing or CARING how it comes across at others. I've had replies to some of my posts that reveal the replyer clearly took my post out of context, and I feel compelled to try and clear it up. Others in this situation take too quickly to the defensive, and reply strongly and insultingly and that's when the trouble begins.

 

 

Here's a rule of thumb an elementary school teacher I had gave for letter writing, "At the risk of possibly getting popped in the face, try to write as if you're looking the person to whom you're writing eye to eye. Are you SURE you would say that to their face? If not, don't WRITE it, either."

 

 

Sepiatone

 

 

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As willbefree noted it is nice that you are making the effort TCWebAdmin to keep the bullies away from these boards. I will say, that most of the time there are people who come to the defense of the one who is being "attacked" and that is very nice to see. Also, it seems like the "bullies" just pop in out of no where, not really frequent contributor to these boards, and they make the "cut" and then others finish the attack.

 

While the nice and respectful people may be in the majority on these boards,it is words of the bullies that often are the one the person who is being attack hears or reads and remembers. Then, if you will, the damage is done, and the boards loses another nice person.

 

Words can hurt and a person should not be made to feel that their feelings have no validation.Many times people will follow up their attacks will statements like "I didn't mean to make you feel bad or feel like you are being attacked." And while many can forgive, many can't not forget.

 

I know of at least one person who is basically "done" with these boards because of the how at times on certain threads the discussion can turn very mean spirited and disrespectful of the "rights" and opinions of others.

 

It is no fun to have moderate every word you might write because you are afraid if it is not worded properly you might get attacked. It is no fun to debate whether you should contribute to a thread because you are fearful that perhaps your opinion or subject might bring out the bullies.

 

I do think you are doing your best to keep the bullies away and I thank you for that. However, I don't think the bullies will ever go away completely. Only the people who don't want to deal with such unpleasant people will leave. Some people might think that is the wrong thing to do, they might think it is more important to stay and fight the bullies, and they might be right. I would say though not everyone is a "fighter" and they might just think life is too short and there is enough unpleasant, cruel and nasty people in the real world, so why should they have to deal with that kind of mess here?

 

Lori

 

 

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I do agree that "ridicule" is disrespectful and, depending on the degree of the mocking, unkind.

 

However, I also think that if a post makes no sense, there's nothing too terrible about gently making fun of it.

Sometimes I read a post someone has written, often it' s the original post of a new thread, and I actually have to read it two or three times to understand it. If someone writes that poorly or that hastily that they are not making themselves properly understood, it's difficult to resist the temptation to let them know that their post was incomprehensible.

I like to think that the way I do that is to have a little fun with it. Puns, or taking what they say literally, or imitating them ( like if they use all block caps, or use a loooong run-on sentence.)

 

 

Now, first, I should freely and openly admit, ( and I do) that a lot of my posts are far from perfect, regarding spelling, typos, syntax, verbosity, and downright mistakes. ( And by the way, I never mind when people correct me on them.)

 

 

However, when I see a comment that someone has written here that is so poorly conceived and written that I can't figure out what they're saying, I do have the impulse to let them know that they're not making much sense. Sometimes I don't check that impulse.

 

 

I think it's all in the way this is done.

 

 

( Now people, feel free to poke fun at me. For instance, why do I exhibit such a proclivity for asides and parentheses? I imagine that can be kind of annoying sometimes. It's all about my rambling brain disorder. :| )

 

Edited by: misswonderly on Sep 11, 2012 3:33 PM

saw my own mistake - changed "a see" to "I see". although I kind of like "ah see", like a Southern accent or something.

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