Left to their own devices

[Arturo]

 

Last night while watching TWO-FACED WOMAN I noticed (again) an instance of something that has always bothered me; namely, different cast members pronouncing the same word differently. As Garbo was dancing, she answered her partner that the dance was called "La Chica-Choca", pronouncing it pretty much as it would be in Spanish, with the CHO syllable having a Long O with no dipthongization. Her partner spread the word that the dance was the "Chica-CHAW-ca". Obvioulsy it was the actor, being an actor, who read the word as such on his script. It seems to me that prior to filming the scene, they would have come to a consensus on how to pronounce this, with the director possibly being the final word on how to say the word. In this instance it's particularly glaring (to me at least) because Garbo had just TOLD him what it was, and he CHANGED it as he repeated it. It's not an instance of an organic change, like the "Telephone" game, but rather something deliberate, BY THE ACTOR, something that helps break the delicate balance that is suspension of disbelief.

 

I know I can be (and have been accused here of being) tediously technical about minute (pronounced MY-Nute) details, but does anyone else have a similar reaction? Better yet, can anyone think of other movie instances of a similar nature (I'm at work and typing this furtively, so none are coming to me at the moment).

 

 

[dpompper]

 

<dipthongization>

 

 

Ouch! Sounds like it could be uncomfortable.

 

 

I have noticed that of which you speak, but cannot think of examples right now.

 

 

Certainly, I'm no expert . . . and wonder if this kind of thing is considered a "continuity" issue? Anyone?

 

 

[JamesJazGuitar]

How does one know that the change wasn't intentional? It could of been done to show that the Garbo character was more sophisticated than the gentleman.

 

Like Garbo my wife is from Europe and she speaks 4 languages so she will pronounce foreign type of words as if they were spoken in the native language. But often many Americans will pronounce them using the English vowel sounds. e.g. I as I instead of 'E' for an Italian word.

 

 

[SansFin]

> {quote:title=jamesjazzguitar wrote:}{quote}

> Like Garbo my wife is from Europe and she speaks 4 languages so she will pronounce foreign type of words as if they were spoken in the native language. But often many Americans will pronounce them using the English vowel sounds. e.g. I as I instead of 'E' for an Italian word.

 

I believe that is because most Americans learn a foreign language by looking at printed words. It is natural to sound out words using the phonetics of your native language. It is that which creates accents.

 

Many Europeans learn the basics of foreign languages by listening to foreign speakers before they have great exposure to printed words of that language. In this way they then grasp the proper phonetics when they see words in print which they know how to say and they can use those phonetics for words which they are learning.

 

I believe it was a grievous mistake in a movie to have a character hear a word new to them and then pronounce it as if they had seen it in print.

[Arturo]

 

Jamesjazzguitar wrote:

*Like Garbo my wife is from Europe and she speaks 4 languages so she will pronounce foreign type of words as if they were spoken in the native language. But often many Americans will pronounce them using the English vowel sounds. e.g. I as I instead of 'E' for an Italian word.*

 

Well, JJG, I totally get what you're saying here. But it's not that the character is less sophisticated so much, as the ACTOR who pronounced it this way because that's what he's used to. My issue with this is that since Garbo's character just told his character the name of the dance, he turns around and changes the pronunciation. This would not have happened in reality, UNLESS the character had seen it written down. Logically, he would have turned around and started to tell others the dance's name as close as possible to how Garbo's character had told him.

 

 

dpompper wrote:

 

 

*Certainly, I'm no expert . . . and wonder if this kind of thing is considered a "continuity" issue? Anyone?*

 

 

 

I don't know if this would be a continuity issue. My understanding of this term is to make sure people had their hair, makeup or costumes done or worn the same in the same scene, as they go for another take or camera angle, or resume filming on another day. things of this nature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arturo]

*I believe it was a grievous mistake in a movie to have a character hear a word new to them and then pronounce it as if they had seen it in print.*

 

This reminds me of a humorous anecdote when I was in college, or shortly thereafter. Among my acquaintances then were a couple of people that were each friends with a (different) friend of mine. Both were of Mexican descent and spoke fluent Spanish. Well Benny had no problem in pronouncing the girl's name, Higia (approximate to English something like Ee-hya). He did this for several years while we were a part of the same circle. One day, he saw Higia's name written down, and never pronounced it correctly again ( I guess he didn't read Spanish much, if at all). From then on it was Hi-GEE-ya, with the final vowel the indeterminate schwa as opposed to the clear Spanish A. It was an eye-opener to me that he could no longer say it even remotely right.

[filmlover]

Arturo, I've seen this happen, too, and I find it annoying. In "The Bank Dick," the story took place in Lompoc, Ca. Each cast member called the city "Lom-poc" (soft "o" on each). It's a little place north of Santa Barbara, so not that far removed from L.A., and the correct pronunciation is "Lom-poke" (soft o on the first syllable, hard o on the second, silent e).

 

And recall some film in which they called Mackinac Island in Michigan (the home of the Grand Hotel used in Somewhere in Time) as "Mac-i-nack". It's pronounced "Mac-i-naw".

 

One more thing, how hard is it to say "ask" as it is spelled, not "aks"? People keep sounding like Popeye when they do.

[musicalnovelty]

> {quote:title=filmlover wrote:}{quote}

>

> One more thing, how hard is it to pronounce "ask" as it is spelled, not "aks"? People keep sounding like Popeye when they do.

 

 

 

That bugs me too when people do that.

Say it like it's spelled!

 

Meanwhile, for your viewing enjoyment:

 

 

 

[filmlover]

[Dothery]

My hackles rise when I hear someone say "ek cetera." It's et cetera. No ek. Unfortunately I haven't heard it pronounced correctly for so long I'm beginning to think I won't recognize it if it is.

[filmlover]

And, though they sound like people's names...sigh, these are bad pronunciations

 

chester drawers (chest of drawers)

bob wire (barb wire)

affidavid (affidavit)

 

 

 

How about fillum (film)?

 

And how many times did I hear someone at work say they think they might be developing "carpool tunnel syndrome"?

 

BUT...I am just as guilty as anybody when I say "pronounciation." It's "pronunciation."

[Fedya]

> Last night while watching TWO-FACED WOMAN I noticed (again) an instance of something that has always bothered me; namely, different cast members pronouncing the same word differently.

 

You've just ruined *Shall We Dance*:

 

 

 

:-p

[Fedya]

> Say it like it's spelled!

 

I'm reminded of the scene in *It Should Happen to You* in which Judy Holliday goes to the business selling the ad space on the billboards and asks to see Mr Puh-feiffer.

[lavenderblue19]

filmlover- I once heard a real estate broker say escarole instead of escrow. :^0

[Arturo]

just to clarify...It's not just out-and-out wrong pronunciations I'm looking for, although these can be interesting, but when people in the same movie, same scene even, will give different pronunciations for a word,

[casablancalover2]

I was in a choir years ago singing Handel's Messiah, the passage- Unto Us a Child is Born.. True, it's singing, and not speaking in dialog.

 

The Choirmaster asked us to intentionally mispronounce counselor in the lyric, singing a hard K, as if to sing to Kunsler -yes, he made reference to the Attorney of the '70s. He reasoned, the way we were doing it too many were making that passage sound a "little muddy" and not crisp to the music, like we were trying to thrown in an extra half-syllable. He wanted simply a little harder K sound.

 

I must say, it worked. Now i listen carefully to the piece to hear how crisply the choir carries it off. He was right; I don't care for the coun-selor which tends to emphasize the wrong musical syllable. The harder K sounds better in chorus.

 

KONselor

 

 

COWNselor

 

 

KUNselor

 

 

I need to find a singalong Messiah around here..

[Dargo2]

Arturo wrote:

just to clarify...It's not just out-and-out wrong pronunciations I'm looking for, although these can be interesting, but when people in the same movie, same scene even, will give different pronunciations for a word,

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Oh! NOW I get IT, Mr.A!!!

 

You mean somethin' like THIS, right?! ....

 

 

 

(...yeah, yeah, I know...this scene was played for comic effect, and wasn't exactly what you were talkin' about...BUT forgive me here, as THIS scene AND this movie is one of my all-time favs, and I JUST couldn't resist posting it, as it seemed sooooo "apropros"...WHICH ironically I hear is a word in which you're NOT supposed to pronounce that there 's'!

[DownGoesFrazier]

We've got to include George W. Bush and his "nook-u-lar".

[Dargo2]

Well finance, we certainly do NOT have the time HERE to list all of HIS mispronunciations, dude!!!

 

(...well, unless Arturo might think so, as this IS his thread, of course...and I certainly don't wish to speak for him out there in "Los HANG-el-lees"!)

[willbefree25]

Lom-POKE? Really? I always assumed (a** out of u and me) that Fields knew the correct pronunciation, and think I heard Carson pronounce it Lom-POCK as well. I never ever heard it pronounced it Lom-POKE.

 

ASK instead of AXE? Are you kidding? You're optimistic, aren't you?

 

The world consists mostly of illiterates. I kid SM, but of course I agree with him, although I didn't like his harping on we the more intelligent of the world - where IS he lately, btw? There, there's the reason for the great illiteracy that has blanketed the world - facebook and its ilk that gave us LIKE! and BTW and LOLHUAL.

 

Heck, I took XXXXX years of English and I'm still at a loss with us and we and I and me, so do you really expect the Facebook morons to improve?

 

Sad.

[Sepiatone]

 

Dothery, I feel your pain.

 

 

I get the same way when I hear people refer to "sherbert" instead of "Sherbet". Or those who call the dish "perogies" instead of "peirogi". "Peir", as in where you park your boat, soft "o" in "ogi" ONE dumpling is a "Peirog". Two or more are "Peirogi" Like in "Octopi". Except the "I" is pronounced "ee". "Peir-ahgee".

 

 

Those who claim "I could care less" when I know they COULDN'T.

 

 

But in spite of my fussiness in these matters, I'm STILL a bit befuddled at how to pronounce BOCA RATON. I assume I'm wrong when I say, "Boak-ah Rah-Tone". Am I?

 

 

Sepiatone

 

 

[JamesJazGuitar]

 

Based on the replies, I agree with Sanfan and you that since one can assume this was the first time the guy (Garbo's dancing partner), had heard the word, it is NOT logical that he would change how he pronounces it.

 

I have seen people hear my wife pronounces something (correctly) and than then these same people say it incorrectly after that, but these are with words those people have heard in the past. i.e. they have an existing habit of pronouncing those words incorrectly.

 

So what we have in 2 Face Women is a sign of weak direction. i.e. the director should of said 'CUT' and told the actor to correct himself.

 

 

 

 

[JamesJazGuitar]

I think it is modeling; i.e. the people saying AXE for ASK do so because they were raised by people who did so or hung out with a group where a majority of people that did so.

 

So it is deliberate but many not willful.

[Arturo]

*Based on the replies, I agree with Sanfan and you that since one can assume this was the first time the guy (Garbo's dancing partner), had heard the word, it is NOT logical that he would change how he pronounces it.*

 

Thank you. My point exactly.

[musicalnovelty]

> {quote:title=Sepiatone wrote:}{quote}

>

> I get the same way when I hear...

> Those who claim "I could care less" when I know they COULDN'T.

>

>

>

>

 

Me too!

I know a few people who say it that way, and I always correct them, explaining that when they say it wrong they're only contradicting what they're really meaning to say. But still they'll say it wrong again next time.