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OT: A moment of silence and prayer


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> {quote:title=darkblue wrote:}{quote}

> The citizen going berserk all at once and killing as many people as he can at that time, which is what is being discussed now, is greatly aided in his body count by assault weapons, designed for exactly that purpose.


I have seen statistics concerning the use of handgun-related suicide. The rate is lower in areas where handguns are not available easily. There is not a lower suicide rate in those areas. People find other methods.


I shudder to think of the consequences of a person who wishes to take delusional revenge on a school when the only instruments available to him are a dozen cans of gasoline and a road flare.

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Given that the discussion has remained civil, and the moderator has not forbidden these discussions, I'm going to chime in.


First, to some of those sobriquets that I consider stupid, and illogical, with apologies to those who have spoken them, I don't mean this personally.


Guns don't kill people, people do. Well, pardon me, but any glance at the statistics will show that mainly, it is people with guns who kill people. Far and away, the most murders are committed with guns, not knives, explosives, poisons, or what have you. Guns make it SO easy, and SO quick, especially if the gun is a semiautomatic assault rifle. Does anyone really believe that if there were NO guns in the US, that there would still be as many killings, using other means? I certainly don't.


Outlawing guns, or some guns, or placing more restrictions on them won't stop these killings. No, it won't stop them, but it will reduce the number of them, shown by statistics of states with stricter gun control laws. This is an absurd argument any way you look at it. Outlawing murder doesn't eliminate murder, so why outlaw it? Cancer drugs aren't 100% effective, so why take them? If I was told a drug had only a 10% chance of curing me, and there was no better alternative, I'd do it in a minute.


MissW. said (IIRC) that she thought without assault rifles, this would not have happened. I agree. Sure, it could have still happened, but it would be far less likely. If the Sandy Hook shooter had been using knives, the cops would have gotten him before he had killed so many. If he were setting up bombs, or incendiaries, that takes time, and he would most likely have been seen, and evacuation started.


We have a SCOTUS that has ruled that the line in the second amendment about a "well-regulated militia" doesn't really mean anything. Scalia has said on TV that he's not sure that we can legally stop people from possessing shoulder-launched antiaircraft missiles, and RPGs, so, who knows what can be done without can amendment to the constitution? I don't. But, I do know what I think should be done.


Military weapons, such as assault rifles, 50 cal. sniper rifles, RPGs, missiles, and large ammo clips should be banned. There should be a buy-back program, paying fair market value, and a grace period to turn this stuff in. After that, it's prison time for possession.


Rifles, shotguns, hand guns, are all allowed, as long as they aren't fully automatic. These are the guns used for self defense, and hunting.


Then, guns should be regulated just like automobiles.


1. One must pass a proficiency test to get a gun user's permit.


2. One must register each gun at the time of sale, or shortly thereafter.


3. One must have insurance, against theft, and any legal liability that comes from that gun. This would bring the free market of the insurance agencies into it, making insurance expensive for high-risk owners, or taking them out of the market, perhaps an end-run around SCOTUS.


Then, some things specific to guns:


Close the gun show loophole, that lets background checks slide.


Improve the national database for background checks, requiring the appropriate parties to report to it, including reporting those psychologically unfit to own guns.


Require a psychological evaluation to get a gun owner's license.


Do not sell guns to known terrorists, and those on the "do not fly" list. That seems obvious, but the NRA has fought it!


Set up a clear and speedy system for appeals.


Do everything possible to keep violent video games out of the hands of minors.


Will that end the slaughter? No, but I'd bet it would greatly reduce it. We are left with Michael Moore's question, why is it that the US is so violent? As someone pointed out, Switzerland doesn't have this problem, and Canada doesn't have this problem. Is that a matter of discipline, culture, what? If we can answer that question, maybe we can end slaughters such as Sandy Hook.


Addendum: I'll be off-line until Saturday, so that's why I won't be replying to any criticism I might get, until then. :)


Edited by: ValentineXavier on Dec 19, 2012 1:52 AM

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Your post has many great points. :) My reference to knives was a response to people who wants an outright ban of ALL guns - period. I'm guilty of not having clarification. I thought some would had already knew that.


Yes the gun show loophole does need to be closed but there are as I discovered on the news that there are a couple of websites that does the same thing. That needs to end.


There *already* suppose to be a mandatory background check in place. But does this stop a gang banger? How is this problem going to be solved?


When our founding fathers wrote the 2nd Amendment, they had no concept of the incredible destructive power of todays weapons at a time when only flintlocks were around.


We do have the reasonable right to bear arms but what is the need to own weapons of mass destruction like assault rifles, missles, RPGs (that is a bit much) and a 20mm GAU-8 mini gun. That photo I posted was meant to be a joke with the teenage girl using it for self defense.


You mention selling to terrorist, well this should apply to the corrupt government as well that sells them to such groups (the enemy of my enemy is my freind mindset) and shipping guns to Mexico to blame the 2nd Amendment


Still it all boils down to people *being* parents, teaching/disciplining our children from an early age to know right from wrong. Schools and daycare centers certainally *don't!* Like to mention also the "fractured" family structure we have in place today. A child won't learn anything or the wrong thing from a dysfunctional mom and dad (if he's around.)


For those that wants to get down to the nitty gritty of the gun control argument - well as Sgt Joe Friday is fond of saying...just the facts.


Caution: Be prepared for a long read if one's head don't explode first.


A bit of historical history.. automatic weapons has been available to the general **** since the 1920's Amazingly it was sold in some corner drug stores, you purchased it as easily as a can of soda.


Thompson Submachine gun (avoid the cows)



Edited by: hamradio on Dec 19, 2012 3:02 AM

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You hit upon a couple of points I didn't cover in my earlier post. I don't recall the exact statistics, but it's something like 60% of the guns that criminals have can be traced to about a dozen big gun dealers, who sell them in quantity to single individuals, who resell them to the bad guys. The guns to Mexico, aka the Fast and Furious scandal is a version of this. This kind of trafficking needs to be eliminated, through laws. Of course, many of those guns would still be legal to sell, we just need controls on these large quantity, untraceable, sales.

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> {quote:title=darkblue wrote:}{quote}

> You have quite the monstrous imagination, though.


I was merely thinking of the shooting in Aurora, Colorado where the shooter had rigged ten gallons of gasoline to explode if his apartment was breached and the two at Columbine, Colorado who set bombs made with propane tanks inside the school with the intention of shooting people fleeing the explosion.

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Neither of those explosions came off. The only reason the Columbine guys were able to try to set up for explosions is that they had semiautomatic weapons, and were shooting people, so the people couldn't flee easily, or stop them. Also, it takes a lot more expertise to do explosives than to use assault weapons. We've caught a number of supposedly trained bomb makers, after their bombs have failed.


Edited by: ValentineXavier on Dec 19, 2012 4:18 AM

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To ValentineXavier:


Your proposal seems a well-reasoned approach which does not affect most honest and decent people.


I take major exception to the part of your proposal that applies blanket restrictions to certain types of weapons.


I was given a rifle when I was fourteen years of age because I demonstrated a talent for marksmanship. It changed my life. I was a disappointment to my relatives because I did many simple things poorly and I was an average student. It was amazing to find a thing that I did well and it was more amazing that I was much better than most people. That brought me confidence. My grades rose dramatically that year and remained so high that I was able to go to university. I was able to hunt to keep food on our table one winter when my father's situation was very poor. There were times that year that she was my only friend in the world. I was able to travel to places I could not have gone if it were not for matches and demonstrations of which I was a part. She brought me admiration from family and recognition from important people.


I expended great effort to bring my rifle here. I shoot rarely because the cost of the proper ammunition is very high and it is likely I will never shoot as I once did because of a recent accident. Neither of those changes the bond I have with her.


The problem with your proposal is that I would have to surrender her because of the classification as a military rifle and new versions are still used by many armies. It is not an assault rifle. I use a magazine which holds six rounds but I have also the magazine for ten rounds.


There is no possible 'fair market value' for what I hold to be a dear friend who has been so very important in my life.

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I guess when you say 'would not of happened' you really mean 'would not of happened on the scale that it did'.


I took 'would NOT of happened' literally as in; this type of event (a mass killing) would NOT of happened. But it appears you really meant; this type of event WOULD STILL happen BUT less people would be killed.


The part about the type of weapons changes nothing as it relates to my interpetation of your intital words; i.e how was I to know that by mentioning the type of weapons this was code for 'on the scale that it did'.


Anyhow the POV you express here is the same as mine and if that initial post had said 'on the scale that it did', I would of said I agreed from the start.

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I can't argue much with you, James, or Valentine. But I fear that any approach to a federal gun control ordinance will raise the arguement of "state rights", and get bogged down.



Here's an example:



When my brother died, I knew he was in possession of a few rifles and handguns. When my sister and I travelled from Mich. to Kentucky to clear up his property matters, we noticed those guns were nowhere to be found. The dimwit who was crashing at his place claimed he didn't know about any guns, and denied having took them. When I contacted the Fort Thomas, KY police about the matter, I mentioned they might use his name to track down the registration numbers for the handguns in able to keep some track of them. I was told that IT WASN'T REQUIRED to register firearms in Kentucky!







While we're at it, let's mention the half-witted myth that people rely on..."I bought a gun to protect my home and property." From WHAT? Invading hoardes? Oh, right. In case somebody breaks into your house.



Sorry, folks. The bulk of home invasions occur when nobody's home. The exceptions you hear about on the news are ON the news because it happens seldomly enough to BE news. Yeah, I know someone's going to post, "Well, I have a friend who has a neighbor whose COUSIN had a guy come into his house while he was sleeping..." Spare me. Having a gun in your house to "protect" it does little good when you're out to dinner, and a break-in occurs. An experienced house breaker knows ALL the hiding places. Chances are, when you come home to your burgled house, your DVD player, stereo, jewelry and silver will be gone ALONG with your GUN. You didn't seriously think gang-bangers and other crooks buy their guns at gun shows, or have some twit come to their place with firearms in a suitcase like in "TAXI DRIVER", did you? No, they get their weapons from YOUR HOUSE! The one you bought the gun to PROTECT.



NOW you have to worry about YOUR GUN being used to blow away some store clerk or other innocent bystander.



STILL don't GET IT? OK. Let's say I HAVE a gun in my house for just such a reason. Someone breaks in while I'm asleep. Waking up, I notice, by the sounds, that there's a crook in the house. I'm pretty sure, after moving around on my creeky bed to get out of it, stumbling around still half asleep in the dark, searching for where I hid my gun, THEN bumping into walls trying to find the ammo, the burgular has either FLED, or, him already being wide awake and alert, as well as having a heightened sense of anxiety, eyes long adjusted to the dark, has the ability to quickly move through the house where all the NOISE I'm making is coming from and do away with me in a timely manner. WHILE I'm trying to LOAD my gun in the DARK!



I do have a few friends who own handguns and keep them locked up at a range. They go to said range to fire them as a HOBBY of sorts, or to find some form of release. One of THEM pointed out the scenario I've mentioned above. I also have several family members who regularly hunt, and THEY even agree the need for automatic rifles isn't sensible.






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Of course, since I work at a college, when I hear of these school shootings I think about the lack of security at my own place of work, where anyone can walk in and out. I was saying to my officemate today, will it come to the point where every public place will be fitted with metal detectors and patrolled by military guards? (No, I don't seriously think this, but there's no doubt that Americans are probably more scared than ever to go anywhere...)

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> {quote:title=Sepiatone wrote:}{quote}

> The bulk of home invasions occur when nobody's home.


The term: "home invasion" is defined as:

Burglary of a dwelling while the residents are at home



burglary of a dwelling while the residents are at home



an act or instance of entering an occupied residence with the intent to commit a burglary or other crime



> Someone breaks in while I'm asleep. ...


A firearm in the home deters crime.

Per a CDC study for one year: "... 497,646 (95% CI = 266,060-729,231) incidents occurred in which the intruder was seen and reportedly scared away by the firearm."



Per Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms By James D. Wright and Peter D. Rossi. Aldine De Gruyter, 1994:

"A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found: 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim. 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun""


> WHILE I'm trying to LOAD my gun in the DARK!


It is my opinion and clearly only my opinion that any person who can not load their weapon in the dark in less than ten seconds is an idiot who never learned to handle their weapon properly and should not own a firearm or even any pointy objects.

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I don't expect anyone to answer 'yes' to that question. To do so would cause that person to be mocked, with me leading the cheer! In the words of SansFin, that person would be in the same category as one that couldn't load their gun in the dark. :)


Edited by: jamesjazzguitar on Dec 19, 2012 6:30 PM

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I did NOT write this. But its true:



"School shootings are the ONLY crime in history that follow an identical pattern every time.



1. Disenfranchised male burrows deep into a school and starts shooting.

2. He kills himself for the finale.



It’s a formula. None of them ever takes a hostage and make a run for it. None of them ever survive the suicide attempt (shooting yourself is a risky suicide maneuver. It often fails.) None of them ever hangs out the windows screaming nonsense or making demands. None of them ever holes up and demands to talk to the media or demands pizzas and getaway cars.



The exact same thing every time? Really? And this not at the top of the school shooting conversation?



Hmmmmm. Maybe somebody with a lot of cash, an agenda, and little imagination has developed this formula for a reason."






What is the reason?



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As ValentineXavier pointed out (as well as anyone with common sense), one should pass a proficiency test to get a gun user's permit.

Yes buying a gun but not being trained to used it is only asking for trouble.


With proper training i.e. in the military, a person can even dismantle and reassemble a gun in total darkness. Loading should be easy if one can do that.


For rifles, shotguns, etc. they should be kept in a well design gun safe not only to protect from theft but from untrained hands i.e. children.

I live in an area in which children goes hunting with their fathers and they are taught gun safety at a young age. These kids have never shot someone by playing with the firearm or misusing them.


My neighbors keeps a pistol in the nightstand next to the bed and during the past 50 or so years I've lived here there has NOT been a single break in.


Deer hunting is most popular here in West Virginia and Kentucky. I mean no offense to animal rights groups, just to show a point. I am not one bit concerned this kid will grow up to be a school shooter.




This is a proper gun safe to store rifles and other long arms plus ammunition. Well worth the investment.



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I agree. Also, I believe one of Lanza's former classmates stated that he carried a black briefcase, while the other kids carried backpacks. Here in Baltimore, some high schools have made it mandatory that students carry see-through backpacks. There should be a nationwide law to that effect for all schools. My heart goes out to the children of today; how can they concentrate on learning? Between the bullies and the pedophiles and the shootings, they have to grow up too fast.


BTW, the world may not end Friday, but the way things are going, I can't see it lasting much longer ......................

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> {quote:title=jamesjazzguitar wrote:}{quote}I guess when you say 'would not of happened' you really mean 'would not of happened on the scale that it did'.


> I took 'would NOT of happened' literally as in; this type of event (a mass killing) would NOT of happened. But it appears you really meant; this type of event WOULD STILL happen BUT less people would be killed.



> The part about the type of weapons changes nothing as it relates to my interpetation of your intital words; i.e how was I to know that by mentioning the type of weapons this was code for 'on the scale that it did'.



> Anyhow the POV you express here is the same as mine and if that initial post had said 'on the scale that it did', I would of said I agreed from the start.


Well, actually, I only added the modifying phrase "on the scale that it did" to get along with you. Fact is, I am fairly certain that this mass killing, ie the slaughter of 26 human beings, would not have happened if the killer had not been in possession of the kind of weapon that can quickly take out a large number of people in a very short time. Therefore, if this type of gun were not easy to acquire, I do not believe the massacre would have happened.

If he'd entered the school with a hunting rifle, it would not have been the same kind of tragic incident that it was.

Besides, this kind of maniac "gets off" on using heavy duty assault guns. Every time we hear of a horrific killing like the one that occured in Newtown, the killer(s) is using a gun like that. Sometimes the police later discover a whole arsenal of the things, stashed in the murderer's home.


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hamradio wrote: "I am not one bit concerned this kid will grow up to be a school shooter.'






Nope ham ol' buddy, neither am I.


BUT, I AM just little concerned that that kid will grow up to be your now typical overweight and out-of-shape middle-aged American male just like his thirty-somethin' dad there appears to be well on HIS way to becoming in just the next few years!!!




Yep, I keep TELLIN' you folks, basketball, tennis, and REAL sports like THAT are the way to keep THAT from happenin' later on, but do some of you LISTEN???!!! No.




(...yeah, I DO crack myself up a lot, JUST in case you're wonderin'!!!)

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