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Bernard Herrmann


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Not to put anybody down & I'm not here to argue. All I wanted to do was talk about the record HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL. I did that. I put up the link. That is it.

 

Check out the prices on his lps http://www.gemm.com/search.pl?Go.y=12&media_format=18&Go.x=3&wild=bernardherrmann&field=ARTISTORTITLE&list_begin_prev=1&list_end_prev=25&low_limit_prev=25&low_limit=5&list_howmany_str=NEXT500&page_on=2

 

 

 

astronomical

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My two favorite film scores are for:

 

1. *Amadeus* , music by Wolfgang Mozart

 

2. *Immortal Beloved* , music by Ludwig Von Beethoven

 

Herrmann was good, but c'MON!

 

Seriously, mm123 could have done worse in his choice, but it IS correct to point out it's basically personal opinion. A fitting tribute, however, was that when MARTIN SCORCESE did his remake of *Cape Fear* , he chose to use Herrmann's original score.

 

Sepiatone

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> {quote:title=Sepiatone wrote:}{quote}My two favorite film scores are for:

>

> 1. *Amadeus* , music by Wolfgang Mozart

>

> 2. *Immortal Beloved* , music by Ludwig Von Beethoven

>

> Herrmann was good, but c'MON!

>

> Sepiatone

Be careful, Sepiatone, mm will say that Herrmann has sold more albums that those guys put together.

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Well when one makes a phony claim like "He's generally regarded as the greatest composer of movie music" instead of just saying "I regard XYZ as the greatest', well any push back in warranted.

 

I also recommend you read the rules of conduct. I believe calling others idiots violates those rules.

 

 

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> {quote:title=mm123 wrote:}{quote}You just can't stand being wrong. The people you named made one or two movies. or no movies. Are you kidding? If you want to show up on here how stupid you are be my guest. Jerry Goldsmith made what 20 movies? What soundtracks did he personally record with an orchestra. None. Because he's lazy. Because nobody would pay him nothing to hire the orchestra because he is not worth the expenditure.

> Aaron Copland did not create a single movie score. Prokofief made 2 movies. You are talking about a man who made 50 movie scores. & maybe conducted with an orchestra 20 soundtracks. Find an idiot like yourself and beat him up. That is better use of your time.

You know who you remind me of? A poster who claimed to be the ultimate expert on the complete history of audio recordings but had tons of errors in his postings.

 

I wonder where you do your fact checking?

 

Copland did not create a single movie score? Do you not read any of the posts here? What about Our Town, Of Mice And Men, The Red Pony, and before I forget, he won the Oscar for Best Score for The Heiress.

 

Jerry Goldsmith did 20 movies? Try closer to 200. And your claim of zero conducted albums is also hogwash.

 

You could try replying with intelligence instead of coming apart at the seams with insults.

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Now, now, Sepiatone. Yes Mozart and Beethoven are giants, but I also am aware their compositions were edited and orchestrated to full effect in the films mentioned by others.

 

I do love Herrman, and one of my favorites is the wonderfully atmospheric *Jane Eyre* (1943)

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Prokofiev wrote socres for seven movies:

 

1934 Poruchik Kizhe ( Lieutenant Kizhe ) (Dir. Fainzimmer)

1938 Alexander Nevsky (Dir. Eisenstein)

1941 Lermontov (Dir. Gendelstein)

1942 Kotovsky (Dir. Fainzimmer)

1942 Partizani v stepyakh Ukrainy ( The Partisans in the Ukrainian Steppes) (Dir. Savchenko)

1944 Ivan Grozny ( Ivan the Terrible, Part I ) (Dir. Eisenstein)

1958 Ivan Grozny II: Boyarskii Zagovor ( Ivan the Terrible, Part II: The Boyars' Plot ) (Dir. Eisenstein)

 

 

Though to be sure, his socres for Nevsky, Ivan the Terrible, and, most notably, Lieutenant Kizhe are the best known.

 

As noted by others, Copland wrote some film scores, which received notice and acclaim, but nowhere near as many as a film composer like Herrmann or Steiner.

 

I would like to make one observation. I doubt many would object to the contention that Beethoven was a better, and more important composer than, say, Satie, Vivaldi, or even Handel. It is not an opinion, but a judgement based on analysis of their compositions, and the effect they have had on the development of classical music. How is it that when considering film composers, who employ the same orchestral mode of compositon, with the same music theories, rating them suddenly becomes a matter of opinion?

 

 

 

 

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As to your observation; I would agree that one can measure "more important" in a historical context and thus get beyond mere opinion. For example, The Beatles are clearly the most important band of the 60s from a historical perspective. But can one say they are 'better' than other bands? Typically I find 'better' to be just a matter of one's opinion.

 

For 'better' to get beyond mere opinion there has to be some objective criteria. Being a jazz guitar player I believe I'm more suited to determine what jazz guitar players are better and I have specific criteria I use (i.e. technical 'measures' if you will).

 

So based on "analysis of their compositions" using specific criteria one should be able to move beyond mere opinion. But we also need to be aware that the specific criteria used is opinion based itself. Thus if a group of experts cannot agree on the criteria than they are back to just stating their opinions. i.e. to me the key here is a general agreement on the criteria before throwing out names.

 

 

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You can have your opinion. Just that mine is better. Smarter. :)

 

I just noticed some stuff on you tube.

 

citizen kane

 

taxi driver http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-i9xowkJBc

 

vertigo

 

psycho

 

I don't think taxi is bogus. The others might be.

 

Jerry goldsmith is non descript. a tv person who got movie jobs. nothing special about him. a boring hack. no art. just hum drum tv music. didnt sell any records I would buy.

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What I find to be cute, mm, is that you keep making referrence to RECORD SALES. I've never SEEN any Bernard Herrmann recordings. I've seen recordings of his MUSIC recorded and conducted by other people, though. I have no info on their level of sales, however.

 

Record sales DON'T, however, reflect the QUALITY of the music, anymore that ticket sales reflect the quality of any movie. *The Fantastic Four* led the box office returns on one particular weekend, but does this mean, to you, that this movie was BETTER than, say, *Argo* or *Lincoln* ? No, it doesn't.

 

Look, we all here agree that Herrmann was a fantastic composer. What we're in disagreement on is that he was the GREATEST. Herrmann himself would take you to task on that. If you're basing things on proficiency, then HARRY WARREN would top the list as that he composed music for far more movies than Herrmann and Goldsnith combined, many of the songs from those movies became HITS over the years( At Last, I Only Have Eyes For You, to name only a couple), and the record sales for just THOSE TWO SONGS leave any Herrmann record sales stats in the dust!

 

Sepiatone

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> {quote:title=leobertucelli wrote:}{quote}Not one of you mentioned ALEX NORTH and also LEARNORDO PENNERIO (hope I spelled it correctly) He composed music for a Doris Day film ---I think the music was called "MIDNIGHT ON THE CLIFTS'

 

Leonard Pennario.

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Please excuse the delay in responding. You no doubt have a better understanding of music theory and composition, and how it has been developed over the centuries by contributions from various composers. Being a jazz player, you probably also are aware of the classical background of many of the great jazz composers, and how that influenced their work--at least as I gather from CD inserts. Anyway, as I gather from the intermittent discussions I've heard and watched here and there, it seems there is agreement on what classical composers are doing when they write their works, and how they are making use of, referring to, playing off of, and smashing conventions. But admittedly, it is, well, I won't say subjective, but it isn't quantified. No one can measure a peice of music and compare it with another. In baseball, we can say someone has a higher lifetime batting average than someone else. Nobody has ever found a way to quantify musical composition, or made the effort, I think. I would be interesting to speculate how to do it. But you do mention the means you have of determining at least the ranking of guitar players, and I think you imply they are objective criteria. So, if there can be ways to rank guitar players (and, by extension, other musicians), perhaps there are ways to rank composers.

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The story of the music for TORN CURTAIN is a blood-thirsty tale that would make a great movie. It involves changing times, paranoia, subterfuge, calamity and the shattering of one of the great artistic collaborations.

 

Like all lists, there is no "Greatest" film composer. Only favorites. And isn't it wonderful that so much of this great, near great, pretty good and sometimes downright pedestrian music is available for us to listen to. Closest to my heart is dear old Maxie, but there are many hundreds of scores by those who followed in his path that are outstanding and noteworthy. Picture music serves an emotional purpose and its usually people with a stronger emotional response to films that are more interested in their music than are those who view films more clinically.

 

Me, I'm made of schmaltz.

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One factor to consider, slayton, is that many musicians and composers usually avoid weighing in on such distinctions. Most do what they do to the best of their abilities, and let the chips fall where they may. Three examples I can cite:

 

1. When once asked, at the age of 80, celebrated classical guitarist ANDRE SEGOVIA answered the question, "How does it feel to be the world's greatest guitarist?" with, "You should ask HIM. I'm still LEARNING!"

 

2. JOHANESS BRAHMS was the guest of honor at a dinner party hosted by a wealthy Baron who at best could be described as a "Brahms freak". At one point, he poured the maestro a glass of wine while telling him, "This is the BEST wine in my cellar. I like to think of it as my "Brahms" of wines!" Brahms took a sip, made a sour face and said, "Perhaps you'd better bring up your BEETHOVEN!"

 

3. While a guest on "The Late, Late Show" with Craig Ferguson, Craig made referrence to MORGAN FREEMAN that Freeman was perhaps the "Greatest Actor in America". Freeman motioned to Ferguson to come closer and said, "Let me tell you a secret....there's NO SUCH THING"

 

Sepiatone

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Record sales were out the door on Herrmann in the late 70's. In the 80's there were alot of bogus Herrmann records. He is the Charlie Chaplin of Film Music. Quit the Motion Picture Academy. Had his name removed from Magnificent Ambersons due to its being destroyed & replaced by other people not part of the creative process. Other music was used. Alot of movies he did later on where his music is the only worthwhile thing about the movie. Like Endless Night & Twisted Nerve.

What they need to do is Rerecord the Torn Curtain score & create a Herrmann version. It'd be an improvement over the official one.

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