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Bogart Vs. Cagney Vs. Robinson


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> {quote:title=misswonderly wrote:}{quote}

> I have a few thoughts I wanted to post here, but first I'm going to confess that I need to catch up on this thread.

 

I also have not been following this thread closely so I apologize if I repeat what any poster has said.

 

> My general impression is that there is far more interest in James Cagney than in Humphrey Bogart or Edward G. Robinson.

 

Is it possible that the general feeling is that they are about all equal but Humphrey Bogart has current public presence such that many feel he does not need as much support? People may not feel that he is over-rated but as they are equal and he has more popularity then the others are under-rated.

 

> Jimmy Cagney and Edward G. Robinson did not enjoy nearly the fame and "re-birth" of their screen legends the way Bogart did.

 

I believe it may be that his iconic movies were seen as again relevant due to social cycles bringing certain attitudes to the fore and there was a coincidental cycle which emphasized individual heroes. This pairing brought his movies back into public perception and his image became marketable once again. The two factors reinforced each other to push him higher than either factor would have done alone.

 

The others have not benefited in a similar manner because there has been no such convergence when their movies were again relevant and people were as a main looking for individuals to idolize.

 

It is possible that such a thing will never happen again because society has changed to the extent that the values expressed in classic movies will never again become mainstream and so their relevance as cultural icons is disappearing.

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*The two factors reinforced each other to push him higher than either factor would have done alone.*

 

 

I believe the two factors most responsible for Bogart's iconic status were Max and Frank Factor.

 

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I'm a fan of Garfield!Excuse me, I'm new to this discussion (in fact I'm new to the whole TCM community), so I may not have much to say here. But I'm surprised so many people are saying that Cagney seems to be favored on TCM. Is it that he's favored on the website? Because I've watched equal amounts of popular and more obscure films of both actors (Bogart and Cagney), courtesy of TCM. And I'm grateful for those being shown, because I will say Cagney and Bogart are two of my favorite actors, ever. I find them to be equally great actors and I'm a little sad that Cagney seems to be more forgotten these days, whereas Bogie has become a cult icon. The resurgence idea makes sense. Yet, being a Cagney fan as well, I wish more people would be exposed to his films these days and realize what a great actor he was.That being said, I will say I believe Robinson was a fine actor, probably with as much talent as the other two. Yet, for some reason, I'm not a huge fan. Personal taste, I suppose. Paul Muni, I'm not familiar with. I have heard he was a great actor, but I have never had an interest in any of his films, so I've never watched one. John Garfield, I am a huge fan of. Bogart, Cagney and Garfield (along with a few others) are my favorite actors from that era. I feel that Garfield is very underrated these days. If anything, it seems like people know him as "the guy in The Postman Always Rings Twice". Yet, I've discovered him to be a very compelling actor and I even dare to put him on the same level as Bogart and Cagney.

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{font:}I believe Bogart is also well known today because of the support he gets from movie critics for his later work like The Caine Mutiny, African Queen, and Treasure of the Sierra Madre etc... As we have discussed Cagney's best post WWII work is White Heat but that is a retread in that Cagney had to go back to playing a gangster. So Bogie stepped out of his Rick persona while Cagney had to go back to being a public enemy. Also those early 30's Cagney movies just don't have the prestige of 40's movies (but yea, we love them for the reasons you gave).

 

Hey, off topic, did you see Hollywood Canteen and RO comments? Ann Sheridan was cast to play the role Joan Leslie played but she refused. So only the WB stars Ann and Errol Flynn were not featured in the movie. The reasons RO gave for Ann not wanting to be in the movie sounded lame (misleading soldiers that they could marry an actress) and didn't reflect well on Ann IMO (made her look like a stick in the mud and un-supporting of the troops).

 

Also, another of your gals is in the film but not credited; Dolores Moran. In a scene were Slim gets to kiss the gals, there is a string of young gals and one of them is clearly Moran (and man she stands out which is saying something since all are nice looking!). I think another one might have been Martha Vickers but I couldn't tell for sure.

 

{font}

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thisgirlfriday, welcome to the boards and thanks very much for your contribution to this thread.

 

I think that John Garfield was a great talent, a highly sensitive "tough guy" actor with a large streak of on screen vulnerability, who was, unfortunately, for the most part, ill served by Warner Brothers. He was given a lot of tired script material, none of the often first rate stuff accorded to Bogart and Cagney in their primes. Therefore, his career, unfortunately, has fewer films of real distinction, which has to play a role in the fact that he is not as well remembered today as the three actors this thread is about.

 

It wasn't until Garfield was loaned to MGM for The Postman Always Rings Twice, or, after his Warners contract expired, went independent with productions like Body and Soul and Force of Evil that he began to have the opportunity to shine with some of his strongest work as an actor. He returned to Warners for a final time in 1950, delivering, in my opinion, a shatteringly honest and poignant portrayal in The Breaking Point, a remake of To Have and Have Not, though far closer to the Hemingway source material than had been the Bogart film.

 

To me, The Breaking Point may well have the performance of Garfield's career, proof that he was maturing as an actor and capable of characterizations of even greater depth than before. By then, however, it was too late for him. HUAC and the political winds in Washington would result in his being blacklisted, appearing in just one more film, before his early death from a heart attack. Garfield is truly a tragic figure.

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James, it's my understanding that Ann Sheridan refused a principal role in Hollywood Canteen because she thought that the whole idea of a famous Hollywood star (such as herself) falling in love with a common soldier (strictly fantasy stuff for all men in uniform, of course) was insulting to those same servicemen because it was so totally divorced from reality. Therefore, Joan Leslie played the role.

 

I don't know why Errol Flynn didn't appear in the production, or Bogart, for that matter. Cagney and Robinson, of course, were no longer with the studio.

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What you say here is what RO said and I still find it lame. Ann, this was a MOVIE! (do we need to repeat the discussion about Oz not being a real place because it was a dream :) ).

 

So while the Canteen was indeed very real the part of the movie relating to the two soldiers and their romances was fantasy stuff and was intended to be, so I fail to see what was insulting about it. But since Ann hated the Oomph girl tag, maybe that also had something to do with it.

 

To me what was insulting is that Dane Clark had to play a role in the movie. One could say this applies to any actor that didn't play themselves in the movie. Even S.K. Sakal got to play himself! Dane Clark was a second tier star at WB and not a character actor. I'm not a big fan of Clark but I found this angle interesting.

 

Oh, and Bette Davis was really something with regards to the real Canteen as well as how she presented herself in the movie. The only thing missing was a cat fight scene with Joan and her! (Joan being signed by WB months before the film was shot).

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I read a review of Destination Tokyo where Garfield and Clark where compared. The general theme was that by 1943 Garfield was able to communicate without being too obvious. i.e. he had learned the art of being subtle (something that might sound easy but to me is one of the hardest things to do as an actor), while Clark was like Garfield was a few years earlier. (some would call that over the top).

 

Maybe Clark got acting lessons from Muni!

 

 

 

 

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>Oh, and Bette Davis was really something with regards to the real Canteen as well as how she presented herself in the movie. The only thing missing was a cat fight scene with Joan and her! (Joan being signed by WB months before the film was shot).

 

So James, it appears you missed the part in that movie where Bette takes over for the coat-check girl, and while she's hangin' up this one sailor's pea coat, Joan happens to walk by and tells her she usin' the wrong kind of hanger for that! And THEN of course, ALL lady-like behavior ceases inside that cloak room!

 

(...so, ya MISSED that part, HUH?!...well, that's too bad, 'cause IT was GREAT!!!)

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OH! Then you saw that part TOO, eh finance?!

 

(...man, I don't know HOW all these other people around here keep missin' it...why, it's by FAR the best part of that flick, wouldn't ya say?!)

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Awright, ya mugs, what is this, some kind of jokers convention?

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSMsrb1mA6DqmXs7Cj9bll

 

Enough already, ya clowns!

 

Talk back to me and I'll pop you like a pimple, I'll feed ya to the fishes, I'll tear your guts out and do things to you that would make a moose blush!

 

This thread is about ME! Ya get that, mug?

 

Okay, maybe about those Cagney and Bogart bums too. But primarily ME! So get back on topic.

 

Remember, I know where ya live, so give me any lip and you'll get some of what I hand out below

 

tumblr_l4r2cxe2oN1qzzxybo1_500.gif

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Yeah, well, if ya have the guts to drop that freakin' gun there little dude, and I'll knock YOUR block off!

 

LOL

 

(...nice way to get this baby back on track here Tom, 'cause as we can see, "SOME people" will just never get why Errol was a much better actor than he was ever given credit for, huh!) ;)

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Funny action picture you posted of EGR shooting a gun. If I remember correctly he had to have his eyelids taped to ensure he didn't close his eyes when shooting a prop gun. Of course maybe that was just a rumor.

 

 

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James, that talk about Eddie G. having difficulty not closing his eyes when he fired a prop gun rings some kind of bell in the distant recesses of my mind, as well.

 

Here's a shot of a 25-year-old Robinson when he served in the U.S. Navy in 1918. I don't know if he saw any action, but, if he did, I guess his eyes were closed.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnktTVy_32P2bTJZN81HV

 

Of course, Bogart was in the navy, as well. One of the stories of how the future actor acquired his lisp is from a piece of enemy shrapnel that damaged his lip when on a vessel, the USS Leviathon. A pretty neat trick, since sailor Bogart reported to duty on the ship more than two weeks after the war had ended. In any event, whatever the cause the damaged lip, a future part of the actor's mythology, it did occur during his navy stint.

 

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!

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> {quote:title=jamesjazzguitar wrote:}{quote}

> Funny action picture you posted of EGR shooting a gun. If I remember correctly he had to have his eyelids taped to ensure he didn't close his eyes when shooting a prop gun. Of course maybe that was just a rumor.

 

The posted .gif is six frames. His eyes are closed in three of the frames. He should have had his eyelids taped open for that scene.

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Tom, Many people would rather see others on that poster.For me and my friends it would go like this-Instead of Bogart, it should be Cagney, instead of James Dean, it should be Steve McQueen. Instead of Elvis , it should be Bing Crosby and maybe some people would rather Betty Grable or Carol Lombard in the place of Marilyn. Everyone has different tastes and opinions

 

 

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