Bogart Vs. Cagney Vs. Robinson

[DownGoesFrazier]

...the Douglas being referred to is Melvyn.

[mrroberts]

Barbara Stanwyck, Joan Crawford, and Bette Davis had a few occasions to work with younger guys.

[jamesjazzguitar]

What you said is true and I was just thinking about that in the hike I just took, but I beleive for Joan and Bette they where playing roles where the age difference was part of the plot.

 

All About Eve and The Dammed Don't Cry are two examples.

 

Stanwyck liked them young in real life (Robert Taylor, Robert Wagner, and Farley Granger (who was gay no less), but yes, many of her romantic leads where younger than her like Holden.

 

I think a pattern here is that for major female stars, where the movie is built around them and they are bigger stars than the male star, producers are more likely to cast a male lead that is younger.

 

When the man is the major star (which was the case with most WB films for the 30s and 40s except for films with the above 3 gals), the producers picks a young female lead, often a much younger one.

[jimred99]

Cagney when he was young looked younger than what he was. He looked the same age as the leading ladies.

[TomJH]

Let's face it, when it comes to the three tough guys actor only Humphrey Bogart, at times, once he became a major star, was promoted as a romantic in which an emphasis would be placed upon his scenes with some leading ladies (in particular Bacall and Bergman, though he was good with Astor, Gloria Grahame and, in a middle aged love affair, Kate Hepburn).

 

Robinson was never a romantic, of course, and while Cagney did have, on occasion, some nice rapport with one or two of his leading ladies (Ann Sheridan in particular, as well as Joan Blondell) he was usually a one man show in his films and the emphasis was not upon his female co-star.

 

One never knows some times how an actor's career may develop. Even after he had become a major star with High Sierra and Maltese Falcon, I doubt that any Warner executives at the time (or anyone else for that matter) would have thought of trying to present Bogie as a romantic, even a cynical one.

[mrroberts]

The cable channel Movies! had *Sabrina* on tonight. I know its a popular film but the casting seems very bizarre to me. Bogart and a "blonde" William Holden (brothers?) romancing a young Audrey Hepburn. Bogie is 54/55 and she's 24. And Bogie is no Cary Grant. Grant was one of the few "old" guys who could be believable with a much younger woman. And the real funny thing is Bogart couldn't stand either of his costars. It would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall while they were making that film.

 

Edited by: mrroberts on Sep 26, 2013 2:10 AM

[DownGoesFrazier]

Didn't Wilder want Grant for the Bogart role in SABRINA? I guess everyone wanted Grant.

 

Edited by: finance on Sep 26, 2013 9:12 AM

[TomJH]

mrroberts, I've always rather enjoyed Sabrina. It's a visually elegant production, with Audrey Hepburn at her most charming, I feel, and Billy Wilder in good form, once again utilizing that great romantic Rodgers and Hart classic, "Isn't It Romantic." Is there anyone who isn't a sucker for that song?

 

However, I agree that the casting of Bogart seems rather strange, and it's hardly credible that at the picture's end Sabrina would choose Bogie over Bill Holden. Some have commented that, perhaps thinking of the "Yes, We Have No Bananas" scene in which Bogart takes Hepburn sailing on a schooner, that he had a slight physical resemblance to Buster Keaton at times in that film.

 

As for Bogart's not liking his co-stars and being difficult on the set, I've read that one of the reasons for that was that Bogart was offended when he heard that Wilder, Hepburn and Holden got together for drinks off the set without inviting him. To a man who considering drinking an almost sacred ritual, that was an insult.

 

Mind you, Bogie was the kind of drinker who loved to needle people and, at times, his comments could be quite cruel. It may well be that he brought it upon himself by being rejected by his co-stars and director during that film's production. Afterward I don't know that either Wilder or Holden ever had a good word to say about him.

 

Here's the famous on set shot of Bogart and Hepburn glaring at one another. This shot seems to sum up the feelings that the two had for each other.

 

[mrroberts]

I've never been quite clear on this, but I have the impression that Humphrey Bogart (who I know could be quite difficult to get along with) and William Holden never got along, dating back to when Holden was a young actor. So I wonder how they ended up together all of those years later and in a storyline where they had to work together a lot. Both were very big box office in the 50's so either guy could do his own film and do quite well. In those situations you only needed one "big" star and the other guy could be chosen from a big list of supporting actors. Anyone out there who can comment further on this?

[FlyBackTransformer]

Personally, I think Bogart had a streak of arrogance. Since the early days of hollywood, movie stars have easily acquired affluence and wealth thanks to the constant mass of movie-goers and yet Bogart said the only thing he owed the public was a good performance. Yeah right, mansions and pools and money are after all mere nothings.

[jamesjazzguitar]

The comment ?it's hardly credible that at the picture's end Sabrina would choose Bogie over Bill Holden? is only valid if the judgment criteria are age and looks. But let?s put age and looks aside for now.

 

Both brothers experience a transformation; Which transformation is more credible? Which of the two is more likely to live up to that transformation? I would say Linus in both cases.

 

So any intelligent women would pick Linus over David. But if the situation was based on reality, Sabrina wouldn?t have wanted to have a long term relationship with either guy. Therefore I speculate that what happens after the ending of Sabrina is similar to The Graduate. They have a passionate relationship that the woman ends after a short period since there is no future in the relationship.

 

But in terms of casting Bogie in the role of Linus: Yea, he is way too old and tired looking. Cary Grant would have been better in the role. He was only 4 years younger than Bogie but he looked at lot younger. Also Grant and Holden look like they could be brothers.

[jimred99]

Of the 3 men Cagney was more romantic/sexy with the ladies. Especially in his early films.

[TomJH]

Bogart's interplay with Bacall in To Have and Have Not is the stuff of film legend. The same is true of scenes he shared with Ingrid Bergman in Casablanca. I don't believe the same can be said for Cagney with any leading lady. Having said that, Cagney was still very good on screen with both Joan Blondell and Ann Sheridan.

 

But, let's face it, few people talk about Cagney with those two leading ladies they way they talk about Bogie with Bacall or Bergman.

[DownGoesFrazier]

This may be the most "leggy" shot of Audrey I've seen. Good stuff.

[lavenderblue19]

Tom I agree, about Cagney, Blondell and Sheridan, but I'd also add Virgina Mayo to that list. Loved them together not just in *White Heat* (of course NOT what you'd call madly in love lovers) but they were sweet together in *West Point Story*

[TomJH]

Yes, lavenderblue, while it's true that Mayo worked well with Cagney, I was thinking more along the lines of romantic on screen partners.

 

!data:image/jpeg;base64,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!

 

(Not so romantic)

[lavenderblue19]

Tom, I know, that's why I mentioned *West Point Story* and I did mention they were not exactly cozy lovers in *White Heat* . My comment was really more about how those two looked together. You have to admit they looked good together and the Brooklyn dance routine in *West Point Story* was one sexy number. I wish they had made more films with each other. I think they looked right together, even more so than Blondell or Sheridan with Mr. Cagney. Hey, just my opinion

[TomJH]

No doubt about it, lavender. That "Brooklyn" number done by the two in West Point Story is a winner!

[lavenderblue19]

It's my favorite Cagney dance routine. I've read next to his dance routines in *Yankee Doodle Dandy* it was Cagney's favorite, so we're in good company on this one Tom

[jimred99]

Tom, Most women view Cagney[young Cagney] as handsome and sexy. They didn't see Bogie that way. And even though Bogie was in more romantic scenes than Cagney, he didn't have Cagney's magnetism and charisma. But look at Cagney with the other leading ladies also like Madge Evans and June Travis. He heats up the screne! He is great at kissing and being a ladies man. I can't say the same for Bogie. Bogie was a great actor but didn't have the X factor.

[ValentineXavier]

jimred99 wrote:

 

>Bogie was a great actor but didn't have the X factor.

 

I guess you never saw *The Return of Doctor X*.

[crazyblonde7]

I agree with you Jim!

[twinkeee]

I agree with you CB

 

Twink

[mrroberts]

Since we have so many Cagney admirers here, how about some comments about MY favorite Cagney film, *The Strawberry Blonde* . Any wanna be dentists out there?

[twinkeee]

jimred99 wrote:

 

< Cagney heats up the screen, he is great at kissing >

 

I agree, Cagney was certainly better looking then Bogey and had that certain charisma and charm that Bogey did not always possess.

 

Twink