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FightForVeidt

Is TCM now cutting off ending credits?

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I was just watching "Above Suspicion" (1943) on TCM and noticed there were no ending credits of any kind. At the end of the last scene, TCM immediately started playing their own commercials. I can't find my copy of this movie to check the ending but I don't remember any film from this era just ending with no closing credits of any kind.

 

Is cutting of ending credits part of the "new" TCM look? If so, I don't like it.

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It seems to me most movies made before 1950, (roughly) had few or no credits. All there is is a The End, (or Fin) and maybe a list of the cast, sometimes not even that.

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What I find so interesting is that whenever something occurs on TCM, that a fan has not seen before the usual reaction is that somehow TCM is at fault.

 

As sfpcc1 has mentioned many older films from that era showed no credits at the end of the film. In fact many films from all eras have done this. Anyway, I think TCM knows what NOT to do and they would never do this in the first place.

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Yes. Definitely. I taped a movie off TCM called The Criminal 1960 starring Stanley Baker. The end credits were missing which consist of prisoners walking in a circle while the names are shown. I previously owned a tape of it under the title Concrete Jungle which had the end credits. So I have given you one absolutely true example. But I saw another movie recently which I can't remember that I was sure had end credits & they were missing on TCM.

Why would TCM do it? My first guess is to protect the movie from bootlegging. They do it for the company that provided the movie.

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> {quote:title=browne1 wrote:}{quote}

> I taped a movie off TCM called The Criminal 1960 starring Stanley Baker. The end credits were missing which consist of prisoners walking in a circle while the names are shown. I previously owned a tape of it under the title Concrete Jungle which had the end credits.

 

I would assume first that it was an effect of the renaming. The information of the closing credits may have been moved to the beginning so as to avoid creating two new segments rather than one only. The original closing credits would then have been deleted because they were not of the same style as the new opening titles/credits.

 

I believe it should be noted also that TCM has a solid reputation for showing the prints as they receive them from the library which owns them. They have no control over which version/cut of the print which the libraries are willing or able to provide.

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Thanks for pointing out what I also assumed. I believe one thing is clear; TCM does NOT cut off endings or remove content.

 

They may lease a movie that was altered from the 'original' (I put this in quotes since it can be difficult to determine what the actual original release version is, and I my POV is that there can be multiple 'original' versions). But TCM isn't getting material and than altering it (I assume TCM doesn't have a legal right to do that). I guess we have to keep repeating this since for many here the first assumption is that TCM is doing the editing.

 

 

 

 

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> {quote:title=jamesjazzguitar wrote:}{quote}Thanks for pointing out what I also assumed. I believe one thing is clear; TCM does NOT cut off endings or remove content.

>

> They may lease a movie that was altered from the 'original' (I put this in quotes since it can be difficult to determine what the actual original release version is, and I my POV is that there can be multiple 'original' versions). But TCM isn't getting material and than altering it (I assume TCM doesn't have a legal right to do that). I guess we have to keep repeating this since for many here the first assumption is that TCM is doing the editing.

>

 

 

 

You and sansfilm are missing the point. TCM's mantra has always been "we show films complete and uncut". The suggestion is that all of TCM's films are complete and uncut. TCM has never said in any of their advertising, "we *try* to show films complete and uncut", "we show *most* films complete and uncut depending on the version that is leased". No one has ever accused TCM of taking a scissor to any film, but if TCM has no control over what version they are showing, they have no right to make any claims about any of the films they show. That is called false advertising and that equates with lying. We know why TCM wants to keep this a secret, don't we? It wouldn't do for it to get out that the premiere classic movie channel rents cut films, kind of defeats the raison etre of the channel don't you think?

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No you're wrong about the renaming. The Criminal was renamed Concrete Jungle. Not vice versa. So the movie was left alone as content & the only thing different was the title... and the missing end credits. Somebody thought TCM was cutting off end credits. The idea was true. I gave you an example.

The end credit on The Criminal is there on the dvd. The end credit means something. Its not just names on a blank screen. I will give you a possible meaning: The prisoners walking around in a circle could mean The actors are imprisoned by the corporations making the movies. Buy the dvd and see if the end credit is there. If its on the dvd then TCM cut it.

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RO has proudly mentioned that TCM shows complete films, from beginning to the very end. So I presume that even with more recent films, which tend to have lengthy closing credits, TCM shows all of them.i

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Can we at least agree that TCM is NOT cutting off ending but instead leasing movies where the ending might be cut off?

 

There is a big difference between the two. Again, I believe TCM doesn't have a legal right to alter the content of what it leases. Only the owner of the rights to said content have that right.

 

 

 

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If a movie on TCM is missing end credits, nobody knows who actually cut them. So to say TCM did not do so you are wrong. You don't know who cut them. If more than one movie is shown without end credits its safe to assume TCM cut them. If you don't know something don't assume to know anything. You don't know. All you need to say is you don't.

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Well you don't know either but you posted this: Somebody thought TCM was cutting off end credits. The idea was true. I gave you an example.

 

So 'the idea was true' (as in TCM was cutting off end credits), isn't correct since neither you or I know if TCM did the actual altering. So the 'All you need to say is you don't' (as to WHO did the actual altering), applies to you as well as me.

 

TCM says they do NOT alter movies. I choose to believe them.

 

 

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Movies on TCM are missing end credits. Whoever is doing it needs to stop. If end credits are missing it points towards TCM since they are operating the channel. I did not start the thread. I only gave an example.

 

check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKypUgrMjNI

 

trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VldPLK6zPrw

 

If you look at the trailer you'll see the scene of the prisoners in a circle that was used to make the end credits.

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> {quote:title=jamesjazzguitar wrote:}{quote}

> Can we at least agree that TCM is NOT cutting off ending but instead leasing movies where the ending might be cut off?

 

I fail to understand what reason any person would ascribe for TCM to go to the expense and effort to do it.

 

Most channels will alter or remove credits in order to provide a few more seconds for advertising. TCM has to locate and program interstitial material between movies and so cutting off the end of a movie would be making more work for the programmers.

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>browne1

>If end credits are missing it points towards TCM since they are operating the channel

 

So does that mean if TCM shows a wide screen movie in pan-and-scan that TCM is the one that put the movie in that format?

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Hi Slayton, glad you replied. I only saw one movie missing the end credits. But there must be more. I did not start the thread. I'm not an expert on every movie TCM shows. I'm only really into Silents & British. TCM sometimes shows a movie that is not perfect. Why that is we'll never know. I noticed the Criminal because it is an extremely rare movie. It was on tv once on Starz as Concrete Jungle. a poor quality print. I like TCM alot. They do their best & sometimes it ain't what we want. But its the only game in town. Let's not forget that. :)

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FightForVeidt said...

I was just watching "Above Suspicion" (1943) on TCM and noticed there were no ending credits of any kind. At the end of the last scene, TCM immediately started playing their own commercials. I can't find my copy of this movie to check the ending but I don't remember any film from this era just ending with no closing credits of any kind.

Is cutting of ending credits part of the "new" TCM look? If so, I don't like it.

================================

No, TCM did not cut the end cast list off ABOVE SUSPICION. That movie didn't have an end cast list (and all the production credits are at the beginning). Some studios just didn't put a cast listing at the end of their movies. If you watch enough movies from every studio and pay attention long enough you'll get to know which studios had end cast lists and when and which didn't.


I don't believe TCM cuts off end cast lists or ending credits unless as has been pointed out, a print comes to them that is already got the end cut off, or if on some rare occasion some technician flips a switch too early at the end of a movie and goes into the Robert or Ben commentary too soon.

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Well we think alike (well at least on this topic :) ), because last night the same though came to me. What would TCM gain by cutting off a few seconds? Nothing from what I can see (unlike stations that show commercial as you noted).

 

As you know many commercial stations also split the screen at the end of movies now; The end credits are shown in a very small window, (often running at a much faster pace) with the rest of the screen show what the station is going to show next or a promo for one of the stations shows. Annoying but that allows more time for paid commercials. I assume these stations just don't 'edit' the end credit because they don't have the contractual rights to do so (i.e. they have to show them), so they do, but in a way that makes them impossible to read unless one has a 100 inch screen.

 

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Here is TCM's answer from the Knowledge Base:

 

 

 

 

 

Why are the end credits missing from some of your movies?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

bq. {font:Arial}TCM never removes ending credits from films; rather, most films before the 1950s did not have complete ending credits. \ {font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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As some people know, I worked in TV programming for almost 40 years, and there was a standard clause in every movie lease contract that crossed my desk which required the credits be shown in their entirety. Of course, commercial networks have found a way around that by making the credits so small and fast they can't be read, but that's something different and not what TCM does.

 

Besides, as others have pointed out TCM has no reason to cut credits. And despite what some people think, TCM doesn't care if people record the movies or not. If they didn't want people to do that, there are technical ways to prevent recording. In certain cases, distributors have required TCM to keep its logo in throughout, to help prevent bootlegging, but there's never been a film shown that couldn't be recorded.

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For the record I have a copy of "Above Suspicion" that I recorded off TCM on June 1, 2011. It had no end credits but the cast of about 13 was listed at the begining of the film along with the names of the characters they portrayed. I doubt TCM would edit a film in any way.

 

 

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Mark, I was the guy who gave the example of a TCM movie with end credits missing. The Criminal 1960. The missing end credits are long almost 3 min. It features prisoners walking in a circle and the names of a huge cast of prison inmates & gangsters go slowly bottom to top. During this two songs by Johnny Dankworth are heard. The movie was released by Anglo-Amalgamated The Criminal in England & Concrete Jungle in America. I have both versions. The TCM version is far superior to the other one.

My opinion is Studio-Canal, the present distributors, most likely gave TCM the movie without end credits. They don't want alot of bootlegs & the reason is TCM showed The Criminal in 24fps & the dvd has 5% speedup. They did not want to give bootleggers a perfect movie in natural speed.

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Ah, if music was involved, it could have come down to licensing or clearance issues.

Whoever currently holds the rights to the film may not have been able to clear the music, and instead of paying for new music, just cut out the end credits to get the product out.

It happens with some TV show transfers......apparently WKRP in Cincinatti (for example) is a mess.

 

 

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Well, it's likely that the distributor decided to delete the credits for some reason, Although I doubt it's to prevent bootlegging. As I've said before, there have been occasions where distributors have required TCM to keep their logo in through the whole film, which is probably more affective then just cutting off the credits.

 

I know a few folks who patronize bootleggers (not that I condone it) and if they're happy to pay good money for a movie obviously recorded off a theater screen with people walking in front of the camera carrying popcorn and soda, I doubt the lack of credits would stop them from buying one.

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In all the years I've been watching TCM I have never encountered a film where the logo has been present throughout. It only occurs at intermittent intervals for 30 seconds or so.

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