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Mary Pickford Lost Film Discovered/ Mary Pickford Cocktail


ThelmaTodd
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Pictures of the old Pickfair, as well as the house that now stands on the location.

 

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Beverly Drive, 1916

 

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Beverly Drive, 1928

 

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Fairbanks bought what was originally a hunting lodge plus 14 acres for $35,000 in 1919. That was quite a bit of money back then.

 

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This was the very first swimming pool in the Los Angeles area. It had a sandy beach and was big enough to canoe in!

 

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That's a lot of dogs!

 

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I'm struck by the relative modesty of the rooms. People with their kind of money built far flashier homes in the 20's! They avoided the grandiosity of high ceilinged rooms.

 

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Formal dining room, which saw guests and service 6 days a week. Fairbanks liked it that way, but for Pickford the non-stop entertaining became tiresome.

 

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Pickford remodeled the house in the 30's, around the time she and Fairbanks divorced.

 

 

You have to know what was then in vogue for the super-rich to appreciate that all in all, this was a big but somewhat modest looking house inside and out. Obviously designed more for warm comfort than pretentious show; it was nice, but not a palace.

 

The home did have some interesting amenities. There was a bowling alley on the third floor. (I once visited a 1920's mansion that had a bowling alley in the basement; a more sensible location when you consider the noise a ball and crashing pins can make!) There was a projection room, (something a number of other stars had at the time), and which was nice to have in an era before TV. There was a polo ground and other facilities for horseback riding through the nearby hills. Their huge pool (100' by 55') had a sandy beach, and was the first in the Los Angeles area. (The technology of chlorination was still new, without which pool water would become unsafe.) They used to paddle their canoe in the pool- real Hollywood!

 

Originally a "hunting lodge" when Fairbanks bought it in 1919, he expanded it considerably as a wedding gift to Pickford.

 

Pickfair did become the Hollywood equivalent of a "royal court", with "A list" stars (that expression was not in use back then BTW) and other industry top dogs regularly on the guest list. Fairbanks was quite a social butterfly and loved entertaining 6 nights a week. For Pickford it became tiresome as time went on, and she yearned for a quieter, more "normal' home life. In 1930, she fled alone to New York city to get away from it all. She relished and enjoyed the experience of staying in a small hotel room!

 

Fairbanks kept his woman on a short leash, which had to have dampened the fun for her. She was not allowed to dance with the other guests, was under a 2 drink limit and had to account for her activities when away from her husband's side. For her, it was no wild party! (Fairbanks was under no such restrictions; he took off to London and had an affair with a married woman.)

 

Some real royalty were also guests. Here is some information from a wonderful classic film blog: My Love Of Old Hollywood

 

http://myloveofoldhollywood.blogspot.com/2012/06/hollywood-at-home-pickfair.html

 

"The last King of Spain, Alfonzo XIII was the first of many titled guests to visit the mansion over the years. The Fairbanks's would also entertain the Lord and Countess of Lanesborough, the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland, Lord and Lady Mountbatten, the King and Queen of Siam, the Duke and Duchess of Alba, the Duke of York, the Crown Prince of Japan, and the Crown Princess Frederica of Prussia"

 

Things like this don't last, and this one didn't. Pickford divorced in 1936 and lived a quiet life at Pickfair till her death in 1979. Piecemeal sale of the 14 acre estate over the years brought her continuing financial affluence.

 

The house became long unoccupied thereafter. It was eventually purchased by Pia Zadora and her husband in 1988. At first she announced that she would renovate it, but ended up tearing it down, something that didn't make her the most well loved person in Hollywood. She pleaded neglect and termites. Later on the Biography channel she revealed the real reason:

 

(from http://www.theempressofdress.com/2013/03/27/pickfair-beverly-hills-calif-60-million/)

 

*"Zadora said in the interview that as soon as she and her family moved into the house, a female ghost appeared to her children at night and would frighten them. Within time, she too, saw the ghost of a woman dressed in 1920s attire who was always laughing (the ghost evidently watched her performance in The Lonely Lady). Zadora says that she did her own research (really?) and determined that the ghost was the mistress of Douglas Fairbanks, and the woman actually died on the estate. She doesn't name the woman, say how the woman died or how she came to this conclusion."*

 

*"Zadora brought in an exorcist but that didn't help and ghost continued to visit her. She decided the only thing to do was to level the house."*

 

*""It was a difficult decision, but we had to live in it and we couldn't live in it with what was going on" Zadora says in the episode. "This is the first time I'm coming out publicly saying that termites weren't the real reason we had to raze Pickfair. If I had a choice, I never would have torn down this old home. I loved this home. It had a history; it had a very important sense about it. You can deal with termites. You can deal with plumbing issues. But you can't deal with the supernatural."*

 

*"Pia Zadora will be criticized from all sides for this new revelations, first by those who don't believe in the paranormal, and by those who do, who may question how razing a house will remove a spirit... wouldn't the ghost just move in to the new house? All I know is that supposedly Pickfair is gone because of a ghost. I hope people don't start using that excuse to destroy other Hollywood landmarks, if so preservation in this town will not have a ghost of a chance."*

 

 

Spared from the demolition or change were the original pool, grounds and gate. What was built in place of Pickfair is a far more splendid looking mansion, which recently went for sale at 60 million.

 

 

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Thelma Todd, thanks very much for the loving effort you put into providing some of the history of Pickfair, along with those lovely photographs and the link to the My Love of Old Hollywood website.

 

In those two aerial views of Pickfair before and since the demolition, at least it reveals that the kidney shaped swimming pool is still in existence.

 

I hadn't heard Pia Zadora's ghost story explanation for her much criticized demolition of a piece of Hollywood history. It brings to mind that there are a quite a few tales of haunted Hollywood.

 

Singer Rickey Nelson and his family, who moved into Errol Flynn's Mulholland Farm home which the famed movie swashbuckler had had built in 1942 (a site of near-legendary bacchanal activities during the 1940s) also had ghostly sightings on the premises as well. Even more bizarre were TWO (!) occasions in which it sounded like the contents of a locked room were being trashed by someone (burglers?), only to find the room virtually untouched when family eventually, cautiously investigated it after the crashing sounds had ended.

 

Nelson, a huge Flynn fan, seemed to take it all in his stride, though others were clearly more concerned. Nelson's family eventually moved out of the place after Ricky's death.

 

The family that lived in the home prior to Nelson had no ghostly experiences. There was, however, one strange day in which all the pipes in the house violently shook for a minute. That strange structure-wide vibration never occured again. Coincidence or not, the date of that strange, unexplained occurence was October 14, 1959, the same day Errol Flynn died.

 

Please pardon the brief digression in topic from the ghosts of the home of the most legendary silent swashbuckler to those of the home of the movie famous talkie swashbuckler.

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Dear Tom,

 

I like that you used the word "loving", because that's what it is. Love of this community of film fans, love of what I have to contribute and love for the films, personalities and legacy of classic Hollywood. I wouldn't be here, doing what I do if it were otherwise.

 

According to paranormal researchers, Hollywood is quite rich in hauntings. Sightings and phenomena have been reported in *Mae West's old apartment, the site of (the original) Thelma Todd's old "Sidewalk Cafe", the Jean Harlow house, the Roosevelt Hotel, the area around where the Manson murders occured and Peg Entwhistle's suicide spot on the Hollywood sign* to name but a few. Most of these locations have been investigated by paranormal researchers, some of who do exclusively equipment based investigation using various recording devices, cameras, sensors etc. Others use mediums.

 

I think filmland offers a lot of such phenomena, because of the intense feelings and passions that a film career and star lifestyles entail, which is wont to leave residual, recordable energy. Many of these stars lived hard and died tragically. It is believed that violent death and suicide particularly make a location susceptible to phenomena. People who pass and who leave behind a lot in life, i.e. fame, wealth, career, who die early etc, can become earthbound and reluctant to move on. Call it unresolved issues or attachments. Investigation has often pointed to such possibilities.

 

*The Jean Harlow house* is an interesting case. Her husband Paul Bern, a big MGM executive, committed suicide in the home. Years later, *Sharon Tate* spent the night in that home with some friends. She spent the night in Bern's old bedroom, and was awakened by a noisy apparition of man that matched Bern's description. Terrified, she ran out of the bedroom, ran to the head of the stairs, looked down and was stopped with horror: she saw a vision of herself at the bottom of the stairs, all bloody and mutilated! ( A portent of her own end) She ran out of the house in absolute terror. There has been one other suicide there in later years. The house was unoccupied for years, and is reputed to be unlivable due to the strange goings on.

 

This awful sounding location may well have claimed Harlow herself as a victim- as she confided to her agent that her ongoing kidney ailment (from which she died at the young age of 26), was caused by a violent beating Bern gave her while living there. She said that this was not at all like Bern, as he was always very self-controlled and mild mannered.

 

The Native American inhabitants of the area have always felt that the Hollywood Hills area (where the Harlow house is located) was haunted, possessed of an evil earth energy and not suitable for human habitation.

 

While I realise this topic is not for everyone, I would offer that for those interested there is a lot out there on the subject, and there are ghost tours in the LA area as well. Also, the whole region gives researchers plenty to investigate.

 

Here are a couple of links for those who would like to know more about this subject:

 

*Haunted Hollywood*

 

http://www.prairieghosts.com/hollywood.html

 

 

*Tragic Deaths of Celebrities Hollywood*

 

 

 

 

50 minute long youtube video

 

I enjoyed you bringing up the subject. Sometimes thread discussions can have organic, associational digressions that arise out the main theme. We were talking about Mary Pickford, then about Pickfair, then about it being haunted, which then leads to mentioning other Hollywood hauntings. It still relates to film history and film people. The subject and experiences are there for those that may want to look at it closer. The LA area also has some fine paranormal investigation groups that can furnish more information to those interested.

 

Edited by: ThelmaTodd on Oct 12, 2013 4:51 PM

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>People who pass and who leave behind a lot in life, i.e. fame, wealth, career, who die early etc, can become earthbound and reluctant to move on. Call it unresolved issues or attachments.

 

It's a fascinating topic, Thelma Todd. As a person who once would have scoffed if anyone had uttered your statement above, I no longer feel that way.

 

Having had conversations with a couple of people who have told me of ghostly sightings, and with a few interesting moments having also occured in my home which may or may not involve a ghost or partial entity (I've never seen it, but a friend of mine claims she has, several times - in, coincidence or not, a room in which the suicide of a 17-year-old boy had once occured). What added to the eeriness was the fact that I had never told my friend of the suicide. I suppose that I have to say that I sit firmly on the fence now when it comes to the topic of the hereafter.

 

Thanks very much to the link to Haunted Hollywood.

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I appreciate that Tom!

 

Sometimes the paranormal has to be sought out (and not always found); other times it confronts the person whether they like it or not!

 

These phenomena can be intrusive and confrontational; ignoring it is not an option. It is in situations like that that investigation groups usually get called out to help a distraught family who is often at wits end. Sometimes the owners have sunk all their savings into a property and can't afford to move, forcing them to live with a scary situation.

 

Researchers have learned to look for warning signs. When looking at property ownership and tenancy history, beware of an old house that for decades, people would move out of after an average residence of only a few months. Finding a 120 year old house, only to discover that while numerous owners have had it, nobody lived there for very long, is a bad indication. Sometimes the previous owner will leave in such a rush that they take nothing with them, leaving uneaten meals on the dinner table and all personal effects.

 

Such homes often sell way below market value. At first sight, they may appear to be very nice and desirable properties, often in nice locations. Indeed a cautious prospective buyer may wonder just what the "catch" is; the thing just looks too good to be selling for such a low price. The worst locations also have a history of being unoccupied, sometimes for decades.

 

Remodeling and renovating old buildings has also been known to provoke phenomena in some places.

 

Investigators will routinely research property history for deaths, homicides and suicides. The more of these that may have occurred, the greater the possibility of some haunting.

 

Also, they have found out that proximity to Native American massacre sites and burial grounds is almost a sure fire generator of phenomena, usually of a very negative kind. Many homes were once built on top of a Native American burial ground, and they are never good places to live. Police, fire and historical society records are routinely looked through by such investigative groups. Local Native American groups can also tell you what locations have tragic association for them, or where their burial sites are. They have long collective memories, and fully believe in such phenomena. They won't laugh at you if you inquire.

 

Some houses have a history of having been used as mass morgues in the wake of a disaster, or they may have been used to house contagiously ill and terminally sick people, where many people have died. All of these can be factors, each case a little different.

 

One consistent thing that years of research has turned up is that it is potentially dangerous and harmful to bring small children into such environments. Children are very open and psychically susceptible, much more so than adults. (I used to have quite a bit of clairvoyant and psychic vision when I was a small child; the ability waned after my 6th or 7th year.)

Children can be tormented for years, and can even experience tragic consequences.

 

Watch your pets! Animals like dogs and cats have heightened perceptions, and their behavior around things unseen to adult humans can be an important sign.

 

Another bad sign is when objects "disappear" and then inexplicably "reappear", sometimes at a different locations. This is called "aporting"; entities that do this can be trouble. Also: electrical devices that unexplainedly turn off and on (sometimes even when not plugged in!). Another: cold spots with strong temperature drops that can't be explained by the weather or drafts.

 

Always a bad sign: previous tenants leaving behind pentagrams and magical symbols, bones, objects of satanic ritual and paraphernalia. Some of the worst cases investigators have dealt with involved such locations.

 

Myself, I've witnessed paranormal events on three occasions throughout my adult life (not explainable physically or by any conventional, means) not counting the abilities I had as a child.

 

Edited by: ThelmaTodd on Oct 12, 2013 6:04 PM

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Thelma Todd, with your own paranoramal experiences, it's no wonder you have made such an extensive exploration of this fascinating subject.

 

I had a friend who confided to me, one day, that she had always had the ability to see ghosts. And it's an ability that she dearly wished that she didn't have!

 

As a little girl she would quite casually notice "people" occasionally walking by that looked diffferent from the rest of us. This conversation was, unfortunately, so many years ago that I can't recall how she described these spirits so that she knew that they were different.

 

What I do recall her telling me, though, was that initially she thought everybody could see these people-like apparitions. When she found out that others couldn't see them, however, she became frightened and was afraid that she had a psychological disorder. She became very quiet about the spirits and wouldn't tell anyone anything about them.

 

As time passed, however, she started to learn about the paranormal and realized that she had this "gift" of seeing dead people (sounds like a line out of The Sixth Sense, doesn't it?) and there was nothing she could do about it.

 

She made reference, in particular, to the fact that sometimes she would be looking into a mirror of a change room of company where she worked and see a spirit walk behind her. She particularly recalled a time when a group of her girlfriends were sitting at as table discussing the recent death of a co-worker in an automobile accident. My friend said that as they were having this conversation, she could see the spirit of that female co-worker, just killed, sitting at the table with them.

 

The one thing I can categorically state is that this friend, which whom I lost contact many years ago, was completely sincere in what she told me. She was not the kind of person to joke around much, and she felt comfortable enough with me to open up about it in a manner that she wouldn't with many others.

 

Whether she was delusional is another matter but I certainly never detected any signs of anything being peculiar about her personality. Quite the opposite. She was such a down to earth person that I found her paranormal experiences to be fascinating conversations. I only wish I could have had more of them.

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Hi Tom,

 

Your friend's account sounds quite familiar. It's more common than people suppose, mainly because people with those abilities learn to keep quiet about it. It's also been noticed that such abilities run in families, usually through the female members. I consider it very likely that other women in your friend's family tree had such ability.This is especially true in cases where such extrasensory abilities continue past childhood and puberty.

 

Most of us I believe have such ability while very young, whether we remember it or not. Children commonly report contact with what the parents dismiss as "imaginary friends". Parental dismissal and rebuke has the effect of this perception to diminish and die out, as the child is very suggestible. This was true in my case. When my parents told me that I wasn't seeing what I was seeing, I lost the ability to see it! I regret such diminishment of perception, considering it an innate and natural faculty of humans.

 

What culture one grows up in can make a difference, as not all cultures dismiss such possibilities. People can see more and have more experiences, because they were never "conditioned" to block out such faculties.

 

Your account of the mirror was most interesting to me! It's very common for entities to be seen in mirrors and glass reflections. Paranormal researchers have encountered this innumerable times! It's believed that mirrors can be interdimensional portals, and have long been used to invoke spirits in seances and ritual magic. Investigators have often found that an "antique mirror" acquired by the homeowner, or one left behind in the house by a previous resident engaged in occult practices, is often the focal point for phenomena. Such mirrors have to be removed (not destroyed or broken) from the house.

 

In Greece, in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, it is believed that for a period of 40 days after death, a spirit remains earthbound. It is customary there to cover all mirrors in the house of a passing for a period of 40 days after death. This is done to spare the living the shock and fright of seeing spirit reflections!

 

Years of research has indicated that besides past satanic ritual, there is nothing worse for bringing on phenomena than the presence of a Quija board! Nothing good comes from them and one should never play with such things. Just having one in your house can be harmful, even if unused, as things can "attach" to it and the board can become a focal point. Worst of all are old boards that have extensive past use, they should be gotten rid of and never kept. (Burning or destroying them is not a good idea, as that tends to release whatever was attached to it.) I am always appalled when I see them for sale in antique stores and resale shops. They are another interdimensional portal, and invariably open one to very dark and malevolent forces. There is a LOT of sad history on this subject, for those that want to look into it.

 

For those of you who take pictures and photographs, spirits often show up in them not as human forms, but as light orbs. Examine your old pictures, if you see a lot of light orbs not explainable as dust or natural light, you may have caught something not normally perceptible to human sense. Research and experience shows that large bright red orbs are a very bad sign and are associated with a demonic presence.

 

Tom, this was addressed to you, but also to the community, who may find it interesting and helpful. These experiences can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime! Even in Hollywood!

 

Edited by: ThelmaTodd on Oct 13, 2013 3:32 AM

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"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horacio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

---- Hamlet to Horacio, after both had seen his father's ghost

 

Thelma Todd, I really want to thank you for the fountain of information you have provided about the paranormal (and all because Pia Zadora bought Mary Pickford and Doug Fairbanks' house!).

 

I had no idea that my friend's anecdote about seeing entities in the mirror was a common occurence for those who can see ghosts.

 

A final anecdote for you, this from the friend who said she has perceived entities (two different ones, in fact, she told me) in my house.

 

She said that as a 6 year old girl living on her grandmother's farm both she and her younger sister frequently spotted an elderly couple at the edge of their property. The man would remain by the street but the lady would come on their property and talk to the two girls.

 

The woman identified herself as Sadie, talking to them on a number of occasions. (My friend can't remember the man's name but I don't think he ever said anything). The only thing that the two little girls ever noticed that was peculiar about this couple was that they both wore old fashioned clothing from an earlier time. My friend didn't describe the clothing but said she had never seen anyone else wearing it.

 

Later the two sisters came across a photo album in their grandmother's house and, while thumbing through the pictures, came across a photo of the woman in the old fashioned clothing to whom they had spoken. They immediately ran to their grandmother with the picture, asking her about the woman. Their grandmother identified the woman as "Sadie," an aunt who had died many years before.

 

They then told their grandmother about their encounters with Sadie and the man (an uncle, I suspect) and their grandmother had no doubt that they had seen two spirits.

 

My friend has no memory as to whether she saw Sadie and the uncle again after this conversation. A couple of years ago, however, while talking to her sister on the phone, the sister spontaneously asked her, "Do you remember Sadie?" and the two of them excitedly relived their shared experience.

 

My friend says that she has seen no ghosts since her childhood. Her perceptive of some kind of entities in my home, while clearly paranormal, is not the same kind of experience that she had as a child.

 

But her childhood tale is of actually having a conversation with what appeared to be a solid being, rather than a ghost-like apparition. I have no idea how common this may be. I have to be honest here, and add that my friend does have a very large imagination but not so large that a sister can relive the same experience with her!

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Hello Tom!

 

I'm really enjoying this discussion! Besides informing you, I think it helpful to others, because such events, while they don't happen to everybody, are far more common that would be supposed. In this culture, we are reluctant to share such accounts for fear of being misunderstood and ostracised. I'm sure some reading here have had experiences of their own

 

One advantage of taking an in-depth study of the subject is that you can review thousands of case experiences and discern certain commonalities. Reviewing the work of research specialists in the field, allows you to access the results of their own personal investigations, which include interviewing witnesses and investigating locations.

 

I wanted to comment on your anecdote in light of what has come up in many cases over the years. It's a common misconception that "ghosts" are ephemeral apparitions. They are in most cases, but it's quite common for them to appear solid as well. In some cases, they can be extremely solid. People have hugged them, shook hands with them, gone out on dates with them, danced with them and made love to them! (Sometimes not suspecting they were "departed" beings, only finding out later.) Indeed it's common for people to report being molested and physically and sexually assaulted by them.

 

What puzzles researchers is not whether this happens, but how and why it can happen in some cases, and not in most others. There have to be unknown laws of interdimensional physics that rule the possibility of such manifestations. Certain theoretical physicists are fascinated by paranormal research, as their mathematical models of reality predicate the existence of 11 dimensions and numerous "universes" that overlap with ours. Interdimensionality has been experimentally observed on the sub-atomic level. Science stands at a mind blowing threshold of uncovering the unknown and unseen.

 

There are degrees of manifestation. The most common and the easiest for most people to see, are fleeting apparitions that dart about in our peripheral vision. You see something out of the corner of your eye, but when you turn your head to look directly, it's gone. Then there are partial apparitions, followed by full body. These can be transparent, according to stereotype, or can be "solid" looking. These too can look like a "real person", but are there one moment, and suddenly gone the next.

 

It's commonly thought that it takes energy from the other side to manifest in our world. Becoming a solid presence takes the most energy of all. Again, it's not understood how this can happen in some cases, but not in most. It is thought that the other side can "energise" off of our electrical power sources. Many phenomena have been reported in proximity to power lines and transformers.

 

(Of particular interest to me in your account, is that the apparitions where simultaneously seen and heard by two children.)

 

Your account of your friend as a child raises an important subject for parents. Children are often our first line of contact and perception with the other side. In a haunted location, it is usually the young children who are the first family members to see and hear unusual things.

 

In your anecdote, it sounds like she got some acceptance of what she experienced from the elders. This is not always the case, as sometimes parents are dyed in the wool skeptics, or their religious beliefs do not allow them to accept such experiences. It's very tough on a child to be stuck between intrusive paranormal experiences and parents who refuse to believe what is happening to the kid. That can really traumatise a child.

 

If parents are open to the possibility that their child is having interactions with unseen, then some important points:

 

1)Gauge the child's emotional reaction. Sometimes children enjoy these experiences. Sometimes these presences are very loving and benign, especially when they are departed family members who had a great love bond with the child and family, or in a case where the presence is a protective one. Other times they produce great fright and a sense of menace. The latter should be of great concern.

 

2)If the child reports having "conversations" with them, it is vital to inquire if the entity has a name and what it is they are saying. Many times spirits appear for a reason with a desire to convey a specific message. Most disturbing of all is when these entities suggest to the child that they hurt themselves or do dangerous things. Sometimes these presences urge the child to commit violent acts.

 

3)Examine the child's artwork. Children often "draw" what they see and often take to drawing what they are experiencing. If the artwork looks very disturbed and threatening, that should be a cause for extreme concern.

 

4)Look for behavior changes. These can sometimes be disturbing.

 

5)If you believe the child is having paranormal experiences, be careful what kind of physician, mental health or psychiatric professional you take them to. While it's true that such perceptions may be attributed to a mental disorder, this is not always the case. (Some accept such possibilities, others assume that it is a disorder requiring medication) If your child is having real experiences, you don't want some "skeptical" doctor putting them on psychotic medications or worse, committing them to a facility.

 

6)If these interactions produce fear, or persist for a long time, realise that you do not have the education or professional experience to deal with this situation. You do not have the tools to control what is going on, as it involves an unseen world. There are people who made it their life work to investigate such things and have dedicated themselves to helping those with such experiences. Find such people and work with them.

 

These experiences can happen to anybody, whether you are rich and famous Hollywood star or just an unknown! Most of the time it happens when you move into an old house with a tragic history. Some people have the ability to see wherever they go.

 

PS: I liked your Shakespeare quote, very appropriate and very true!

 

Edited by: ThelmaTodd on Oct 13, 2013 12:49 PM

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Thanks to both you and Tom for one of the most interesting threads I've read on these boards in a long time. :)

 

I have a close friend who has had contact from spirits, mostly when she was a child, but she also told me an interesting story that happened to her as an adult.

 

She was working in a hospital when she turned and was startled to see a man standing there. He was asking her questions (my apologies for my faulty memory, if I could remember what he said it would make this story more interesting). He seemed to be perfectly normal, fully flesh and blood. Eventually he turned and went around a corner. When my friend went to follow him, he had completely disappeared. She looked around and it was obvious that he had "de-materialized"

 

I'd known my friend for a while and she'd been afraid of sharing these stories with me for a long time, that I would think she was "crazy", but she's a perfectly level-headed, down to earth human being, and I do think there's more out there than we can rationalize, so her stories were really interesting to me.

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Thelma Todd, once again, I would like to thank you for these discussions about the paranormal. Your informed and highly intelligent, even scientific, descriptions of possible occurences of the unexplained, along with advice to parents should their children shows signs of an encounter, is really performing an invaluable service - for those who believe or, at least, have an open mind on the subject.

 

It would be great if others chose to share some of their experiences but, if not, I understand that, as well.

 

There may be a lot of them reading this thread, as well as, of course, those that are cynical. Believe me when I say that I more than understand the feelings of the latter since up until, say, 15 or 20 years ago, I was firmly ensconced within their group. Now, I regard myself as open to the possibility of a hereafter.

 

As for my friend, and her encounter as a little girl (along with her sister) with Sadie, she had no fear of any kind during those experiences at the time. The conversations with Sadie (she forgets what they actually discussed) must have been about common every day things. She has no memory of any instructions or messages being given to her.

 

As for her grandmother's reaction to the encounters, it's apparent that she already believed in a spirit world. It was only after my friend's conversation with her grandmother about it that she became afraid over the possiblity of having spoken to a ghost.

 

Today, however, having perceived some kind of presence in my own home, she was very casual about it, mentioning it to me in a nonchalant manner. At first, quite frankly, I was amused when she told me. When she said she saw an entity in the room of a suicide 60 years ago, however, I marvelled at the "coincidence."

 

EDIT: Now that I've seen your comment about your friend, Eugenia, thanks very much for sharing it with us.

 

Edited by: TomJH on Oct 13, 2013 1:45 PM

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The best stories on any tour in LosAngeles is a ghost story. And I have heard more ghost stories from Paramount than anywhere else. Maybe it's the influence of the cemetery next door.

 

I have found many restaurants named sandwiches after movie stars.

 

http://www.delish.com/cooking-shows/food-tv/celebrity-sandwiches#slide-1

 

Great name dropping for lunch. :^)

 

I want to visit the Stage Deli. Look near the bottom of the page:

 

http://www.stagedeli.com/NYMenuSample.cfm

 

Then, there's Heimerhaus in Redwood City, CA:

 

http://heimerhaus.com/9101.html

 

Edited by: casablancalover2 on Oct 13, 2013 1:46 PM

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While I've never had direct encounters with spirits, there's one eerie coincidence I remember well:

 

My grandmother and I were very close, and she died when I was 15. One day years later my friend and I were walking around our village cemetery and I was trying to find my grandmother's grave. On and on I walked, and I was getting frustrated at not being able to locate it.

 

Suddenly I hit a muddy patch of dirt - it had been raining - and I started to lose my balance. I started twisting to my side, but not strongly or violently. I reached my arm out and almost gently stopped a full-body fall.... I happened to look up and there in front of my eyes was my grandmother's gravestone. :)

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Hi Eugenia and Tom!

 

Wow! This is a great discussion! When people fell safe to share without fear of social scorn, then a lot came come out. These experiences are not uncommon, but the culture forces us to keep quiet about them. This is not a good topic to share with strangers or to mention in casual conversation.

 

Eugenia, your friends' experience is interesting to me. Hospitals have more than their share of phenomena, for the simple reason that many people end up passing there. Many hospital workers have their stories and they often feel that they can't talk about them.

 

It would be interesting to ask if your friend can remember what the man said. Hospitals, serving as a "transition point" for so many, produce spirits who are confused about what is happening to them. They wander around bewildered trying to ask the living what is going on.

 

The night my mother passed in a hospital, I had a livid, lucid dream of her wandering around the hospital corridor. She grabbed me by both arms very forcefully, with a bewildered disturbed look in her eyes and demanded: "Where's my room!!". Her bed becomes empty or occupied by another person; she's "not there" anymore and it produces confusion. This is a common type of hospital sighting.

 

One of the strangest things paranormal research indicates, is that spirits often are not aware of being "dead", or are in denial about it. Some on the other side appear to be confused about it, wondering why the living intrude into their former living spaces, or why the living do not seem to hear or notice them. Others are aware, but avoid moving on into the light, as they fear being judged and punished. They become "earthbound" entities.

 

Some are stuck in a "loop", endlessly re-experiencing their death state (that would be a form of hell), especially true for suicides. Earthbound spirits can become enslaved if they don't move on. There are some very bad entities on the other side that collect and entrap such souls. Paranormal researchers have often found that where there is a powerful demonic entity, there are almost always human earthbound spirits that such a demon controls and has trapped.

 

Other earthbound spirits find that they are "confined" to a certain area and are not allowed to leave it. That is a dreary punishment in itself! Recordings made by researchers often turn up recorded spirit voices begging for help. Not a great afterlife! Such entities need help to move on. People known to have done a lot of bad things while alive, often wind up being troubled, trapped and earthbound. Should have listened to what they tried to teach you in Sunday school! Careful how your actions affect others. Careful how you live!

 

PS: Eugenia, what happened with your grandmother's grave is also a very common type of experience- it's "guided" and associational, beyond the probabilities of coincidence. Often happens when we are inquiring about those who have passed, or searching for information about them. It's not uncommon for photographs and hidden possessions of the deceased to "coincidentally" turn up.

 

Edited by: ThelmaTodd on Oct 13, 2013 3:49 PM

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Hi Tom,

 

She was fortunate in that these sound like loving family members that were watching over her and her sister. That's a common type of sighting. They often go on to function a protectors. Love is a very powerful thing and can live on.

 

It's also very common for recently passed loved ones to appear in dreams or in spirit form, to reassure those left behind that they are fine.

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*It's also very common for recently passed loved ones to appear in dreams or in spirit form, to reassure those left behind that they are fine.*

 

I was going to mention this too, Thelma. I have had very vivid dreams about people who have passed on - not only relatives, but one acquaintance and one high school classmate who was brutally murdered. They felt like more than mere "dreams" to me, especially with the very unsettling feeling I had when I woke up from them...

 

Sometimes the dreams aren't reassuring - sometimes the soul is still tortured in the afterlife. I've had such a dream about one close relative, and she suffered a lot in her life, too.

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Well, I wasn't going to mention this but since the subject of dreams has come up I guess I will now.

 

For a number of years I had variations on the same dream in which a vague transparent being would walk through my bedroom wall as I lay asleep in bed and either stand by the bed looking down at me or sit on the edge of my bed. I always had these dreams, it seemed, when I was in a half asleep, half awake state, and I was terrified because I was completely immobilized and could do nothing, and these experiences seemed so extraordinarily realistic. The being never did anything except stare at me before he (and it did seem to be a he) disappeared.

 

I haven't had a repeat of any of these horrible experiences in many years now, and have always dismissed them as horrible nightmares. I still assume they were just that. However, my friend's comments about perceptions of two different entities in my home have sometimes made me question if what I repeatedly went through for a couple of years actually was a dream.

 

As long as I never experience it again, I'll be happy.

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Wow, incredible story... Your experiences sound like more than just random 'dreams' to me, Tom. I believe the dream state can be a 'portal' of some kind, where entities can communicate.

 

I could go on and on about subjects like this all day. :) Hopefully I won't be laughed off the board for my ideas, but again, this is such a great thread!

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Thanks, Eugenia.

 

I have to say that I have never had such a repetitive series of a variation on the same dream in my life. I must have had these terrifying experiences for at least two years before they finally stopped (ten to fifteen years ago)!

 

It does make me wonder a bit if they were just nightmares. But to suggest they they were something other than that would have more than a few people wondering about me, I know.

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Hi Tom and Eugenia!

 

There are conventional dreams and then there are lucid dreams. Lucid dreaming is a much more conscious state, often a person is aware of being in the "dream state" while lucid dreaming. One is sometimes able to direct the lucid dream experience while having it. Lucid dreams are more vividly remembered when one awakens. In a lucid dream state, one is likely to connect or interact with others in the non-physical, hence it's a means of "contact" and "communication".

 

It's well known among paranormal people that the ability to lucid dream opens one up to being reached by disincarnate entities. It's really a form of mediumship. One is basically a "sleep medium".

 

Tom, what you described has more the characteristics of a paranormal visitation rather than a dream. The fact that you were half awake, plus the part about being immobilised makes me think it was not a dream. People often report being made immobile while experiencing a presence. (These are usually not good), even when fully awake. Of course seeing this thing go through your walls adds to the creepiness. Entities have often been seen (even recorded on camera) hovering around a person's bed, staring at them and sitting down. (They also can get on top of one.)

 

I would be curious to know if you have any idea what brought this on and what caused it to stop. The first thing I would ask is did you change residence or bedrooms? Was there any object in the room that you brought in around when these experiences started, or did you remove anything around when it stopped? Objects can "anchor", draw and attract presences. (Many an antique collector got more than he bargained for when he brought his new "find" home!)

 

If the answer does not present itself to you right away, you may want to ponder this. Around how old were you when this was going on? Did you engage in any occult practices? Did you have a friend or family member who did? Was there someone else living in the house around this time who moved out? Did any other family members have experiences? Were you a collector of anything antique or used?

 

Did this occur in the residence where the suicide took place?

 

You are "lucky" this stopped and didn't get worse.

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Thelma Todd, I occasionally have what you called lucid dreams. I will be very aware of the fact that I'm having a dream while having it and can, to a limited degree, even have a little bit of control of activities within that dream.

 

As far as the series of dream visitations from years ago are concerned, I am still in the same bedroom today and, therefore, yes, they were in the same house as the suicide from 1958 or '59.

 

As for your other questions, however, I'm afraid I have no answers. The dreams or paranormal visits, whichever they were, occured, I suspect, in the mid to late 1990s, my having turned 40 around then, and I can't think of anything happening at that particular time to cause the experiences to either start or, most thankfully, stop.

 

There was no particular pattern, from what I can recall, to their occurence, perhaps once every few weeks or so. I know it did happen a lot, though, for a prolonged period of time. I'm guessing when I say two years, but that sounds about right.

 

I don't collect antiques, unless you count movie posters as such and those I had had since the '60s and '70s (still have them). It would have been around the time of the nightmares that I did acquire an autograph album from an antique store, full of signatures of famous stars of stage and screen from the early '30s. I still have that album in my bedroom today, though. That's about it for "antiques."

 

No, I never participated in occult practices of any kind. It was around the same period of time, though, that I did have a friend who, though I didn't press her on the issue, may have indulged in some kind of variations on voodoo. She was from Trinidad and told me of having recently participated in a ceremony that involved sacrificing a chicken in a hotel room, much to my horror at the time. She didn't go into details beyond that.

 

Yes, I'm very aware that I was lucky that these dreams or visitations stopped. Even if they were just nightmares, they were far too vivid for my comfort. After all these years I still recall them so well. I rather suspect I always will.

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Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for sharing. Association with your friend from Trinidad could well have been the "trigger". Especially if you visited her home, which would bring you more under the influence of whatever it was that surrounded her.

 

Practices that involve invocation and blood sacrifice can lead to no good. Having contact with such people can itself open a door. Also, you don't know what she was doing behind your back. People like that often resort to their rituals in order to influence or harm others.

 

The fact that there was a suicide in the home can also be a troubling piece of the puzzle. It is good that this stuff stopped. Very often it doesn't, and such visitations may not be the end, but only the beginning.

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Now that I think about it, I had met the lady who had seen ghosts all her life, including in mirrors, though my other friend who had performed the animal sacrifice. So they were both around the same time as my dreams or visitations. I haven't seen either lady in over 15 years now.

 

But, in any event, the experiences are now ancient history. At the time it never occured to me that they could have been anything other than dreams.

 

Thanks, Thelma Todd, for trying to give those visitations, dreams or otherwise, an appraisal.

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