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John Wayne as SOTM April 2014


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Okay James , while I agree with you about Wayne's characters not being "very nice" or "decent" in "The Searchers" and "Red River", I always thought of his role as Tom Doniphon in "Liberty Valance" as being a fairly decent sort. I mean, putting aside the question of if "bushwhacking" Valance from the alley is a "decent" thing to do(or as Edmund O'Brien once says in this film, "You call Liberty Valance A MAN?!") , you must remember that IF he didn't do that, then the little town of Shinbone probably would have(not "would of" btw..wink, wink) been under the tyranny of Valance and not fit for "decent people" to live in for a much longer time than it would otherwise. In fact, for most of this film, Wayne pretty much acts as the sole "enforcer of decency" in Shinbone.

 

In other words, as that train conductor says as the final words of this film, "Nothin's too good for the(actual) man who shot Liberty Valance"! ;)

 

Yea,  I agree the Tom Doniphon character was a decent guy.    I should of said that he was a weak and a wimp as it relates to women.   He loses his gal to a better man (at least a man she felt was a better man),  and Tom ends up burning his house down and becomes a drunk.    NOW,  what I don't know is what Tom did after that,   but I don't remember a wife or any kids around when he died so I assumed he died a lonely man.    That implies that he didn't get his act back together after burning down his house.  

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Yea,  I agree the Tom Doniphon character was a decent guy.    I should of said that he was a weak and a wimp as it relates to women.   He loses his gal to a better man (at least a man she felt was a better man),  and Tom ends up burning his house down and becomes a drunk.    NOW,  what I don't know is what Tom did after that,   but I don't remember a wife or any kids around when he died so I assumed he died a lonely man.    That implies that he didn't get his act back together after burning down his house.  

 

 

When we first meet Tom Doniphon for the first time in Shinbone, he is  a decent guy. He is the man the town turns to keep them save (even the sheriff, Linc Appleyard, knows that) and he is a well respected member of the community.

 

But his killing of Valance in cold blood had an adverse affect on him, one he likely wasn't expecting.

 

Yes, he burned the house he was building to live in with Hallie.

 

But his decent into alcoholism wasn't all because of her and Ranse.

 

He stopped wearing his gun and slipped further and further away from the man he once been.

 

As though killing a man, even one as evil as Valance, in cold blood was something he could not atone for.

 

He was also betrayed by the man he lost Hallie to. Ranse Stoddard makes a big deal about how "no one fights my battles for me" but in the crucial battle of his life, he did just that.

 

He knew, perhap not immediately. but shortly thereafter, that he didn't kill Valance.When they meet , years later, in the courthouse at the meeting for statehood confirmation, Tom finally confirms what Ranse has known all along- that Tom was the man who did the actual killing.

 

But caught up in the hero worship that everyone bestowed upon him and with Hallie choosing him over Tom, Ranse made no endeavor )until years later when he realizes that he might lose Hallie forever) to set the record straight, made his career on that lie and lived the life that Tom Doniphon, the man who actually shot Valance, should have had.

 

I can see how such thing could make Tom Doniphon a bitter man towards Stoddard.

 

But laying down his guns for good, that was because killing Valance the way he did (in cold blood) broke some unspoken belief that was important to Doniphon and he never realized how important it was until after the killing.

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When we first meet Tom Doniphon for the first time in Shinbone, he is  a decent guy. He is the man the town turns to keep them save (even the sheriff, Linc Appleyard, knows that) and he is a well respected member of the community.

 

But his killing of Valance in cold blood had an adverse affect on him, one he likely wasn't expecting.

 

Yes, he burned the house he was building to live in with Hallie.

 

But his decent into alcoholism wasn't all because of her and Ranse.

 

He stopped wearing his gun and slipped further and further away from the man he once been.

 

As though killing a man, even one as evil as Valance, in cold blood was something he could not atone for.

 

He was also betrayed by the man he lost Hallie to. Ranse Stoddard makes a big deal about how "no one fights my battles for me" but in the crucial battle of his life, he did just that.

 

He knew, perhap not immediately. but shortly thereafter, that he didn't kill Valance.When they meet , years later, in the courthouse at the meeting for statehood confirmation, Tom finally confirms what Ranse has known all along- that Tom was the man who did the actual killing.

 

But caught up in the hero worship that everyone bestowed upon him and with Hallie choosing him over Tom, Ranse made no endeavor )until years later when he realizes that he might lose Hallie forever) to set the record straight, made his career on that lie and lived the life that Tom Doniphon, the man who actually shot Valance, should have had.

 

I can see how such thing could make Tom Doniphon a bitter man towards Stoddard.

 

But laying down his guns for good, that was because killing Valance the way he did (in cold blood) broke some unspoken belief that was important to Doniphon and he never realized how important it was until after the killing.

 

I didn't know Tom put down his guns after killing Valance.   I guess I missed the scene that contains that.    Was it at the start?  I have seen the movie around 5 times but I miss the first few minutes each time!   

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I didn't know Tom put down his guns after killing Valance.   I guess I missed the scene that contains that.    Was it at the start?  I have seen the movie around 5 times but I miss the first few minutes each time!   

 

James,

 

It's in one of the early funeral home scenes when Ranse and Hallie first go to pay their respects to Tom. Doniphon is laid out in a plain pine box and Ranse angrily notices that he has no boots or guns on him and points that out to the funeral director.

 

It is then Ranse is told that Doniphon stopped wearing his gun years before.And the funeral director agrees to find Doniphon's boots and put them on the body.

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James,

 

It's in one of the early funeral home scenes when Ranse and Hallie first go to pay their respects to Tom. Doniphon is laid out in a plain pine box and Ranse angrily notices that he has no boots or guns on him and points that out to the funeral director.

 

It is then Ranse is told that Doniphon stopped wearing his gun years before.And the funeral director agrees to find Doniphon's boots and put them on the body.

 

Thanks.   I have seen that seen since I remember the boots comment.   I just didn't catch the connection with him not wearing his guns and that this was due to how Valance was killed.   But it makes total sense.  Someone just had to spell it out for me!

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He was also betrayed by the man he lost Hallie to. Ranse Stoddard makes a big deal about how "no one fights my battles for me" but in the crucial battle of his life, he did just that.

 

He knew, perhap not immediately. but shortly thereafter, that he didn't kill Valance.When they meet , years later, in the courthouse at the meeting for statehood confirmation, Tom finally confirms what Ranse has known all along- that Tom was the man who did the actual killing.

 

But caught up in the hero worship that everyone bestowed upon him and with Hallie choosing him over Tom, Ranse made no endeavor )until years later when he realizes that he might lose Hallie forever) to set the record straight, made his career on that lie and lived the life that Tom Doniphon, the man who actually shot Valance, should have had.

 

I can see how such thing could make Tom Doniphon a bitter man towards Stoddard.

 

 

 

Hmmmm...ya know Lynn, I've never gotten the impression that Ranse knew or even had an inkling he wasn't actually Valance's killer until that statehood convention years later. And, then once he found this out, what good would it have been to disclose this bit of information to anyone while Tom was alive, as it could have resulted with Tom being brought up on charges of murder.

 

I also got the impression that Ranse never used his notoriety as the man who shot Valance for political gain either, as it seems to me his character would have always downplayed that, plus the idea that he was one of the few people in that territory and then state who had experience with the law and lawmaking, and thus I would think the voters would have taken that more into consideration when they voted.

 

(...aah, but then again, I think we all know the many facile reasons many voters vote the way they do...and so maybe not, eh?!) LOL

 

And secondly, the manner in which this story unfolds, Tom's actions are actually very similar to what Rick Blaine does for "the common good" in CASABLANCA, as he too goes out of his way to protect the man who would eventually take away the love of his life.

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I really have to go along with my man Rufus T, I mean  Groucho, er, Dargo on this one. Tom did what he did (shoot Valance) mainly out of  his love for the girl Hallie. He knew how much Hallie loved Rance and Rance's  death would have devastated her forever. Rance truly believed (like everyone else) that he alone  shot Valance and he reluctantly took credit for that. Tom on the other hand had to keep the secret and only revealed it at the political convention, again I believe as much for Hallie's benefit as much as Rance's.  Its always hard to understand Tom's feelings about Rance Stoddard. His feelings would have probably been indifference but Rance was a rival for the girl. So Tom could have disliked and even hated Rance, but Tom was always thinking of the girl  first, so what ever was best for her was what Tom wanted most. So he made the decisions that he did , unfortunately he never got over losing the girl  (I really don't believe Tom ever felt guilty about killing Valance, he got what he deserved) and Tom Doniphon lived the rest of his life in miserable, lonely seclusion.  

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Hmmmm...ya know Lynn, I've never gotten the impression that Ranse knew or even had an inkling he wasn't actually Valance's killer until that statehood convention years later. And, then once he found this out, what good would it have been to disclose this bit of information to anyone while Tom was alive, as it could have resulted with Tom being brought up on charges of murder.

 

I also got the impression that Ranse never used his notoriety as the man who shot Valance for political gain either, as it seems to me his character would have always downplayed that, plus the idea that he was one of the few people in that territory and then state who had experience with the law and lawmaking, and thus I would think the voters would have taken that more into consideration when they voted.

 

(...aah, but then again, I think we all know the many facile reasons many voters vote the way they do...and so maybe not, eh?!) LOL

 

And secondly, the manner in which this story unfolds, Tom's actions are actually very similar to what Rick Blaine does for "the common good" in CASABLANCA, as he too goes out of his way to protect the man who would eventually take away the love of his life.

 

As for comparing Rick to Tom:  The big difference is that Rick remains the hero (noble type) at the end and we assume in the future.    Now the screenwriter\director could of done something similar with Tom;   e.g.  Tom become Marshall and enforces the type of laws the law and order Ranse stands for,  finds another gal,  lives a non bitter 'good life' but with a dark secret.      

 

Would that narative had changed the story much?    In other words,  is it really necessary for Tom to go off the deep end at it relates to the overall story?     Not really expect as it relates to what Tom does after the shooting.   But as Lynn implies if Tom's actions were driven by his guilt for killing Valance in cold blood there is no way Tom could become a lawman or other type of hero character with all that guilt.  

 

So I was too harsh as it relates to my judgement of Tom;    His actions were NOT driven by the loss of Halle.   Instead that is only a secondary factor.  The main factor is the guilt from the killing.

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So I was too harsh as it relates to my judgement of Tom;    His actions were NOT driven by the loss of Halle.   Instead that is only a secondary factor.  The main factor is the guilt from the killing.

 

Yes James, I believe you were...being too harsh with your judgement of Tom, that is.

 

However, and no offense here my friend, I have to add that I find the reason you've "softened" your view of him a little, the idea that the emotion of "guilt" instead of "loss" makes him somehow more "noble", to be of questionable reasoning for such, as it IS only human for people possessing many various degrees of "nobility" to succumb to fits of depression when their lives contain either emotion, be they once a "hero" or not.

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Funny how one can see a movie for a dozen or more times over the years and remember bits and pieces of the movie, and yet maybe draw some wrong conclusions about the story. I don't have a tape/recording of " Liberty Valance", mainly because it has been  aired rather often over the years.  So I go by memory here;  when Tom confronts Rance in the back room at the convention and tells Rance the real story of what happened that fateful night,   Tom admonishes  Rance for feeling guilty over the killing of Liberty Valance. I'm paraphrasing here, Tom says "you didn't kill Valance, I did, and I can live with it.  You made promises to Hallie so make her proud and go back in there and take that nomination"  .  So Tom shares the secret with Rance and it is in the interest of both men to keep that secret. The only other to ever know the truth is Pompey, Tom's friend, and he would never talk..  So Rance goes on to his long, successful political career (with Hallie as his wife)  and Tom is stuck in Shinbone to brood about what could have been (marriage and life with the girl) and never gets over it . He dies a lonely recluse, and  Rance is the only one to really understand why that happened.

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Funny how one can see a movie for a dozen or more times over the years and remember bits and pieces of the movie, and yet maybe draw some wrong conclusions about the story. I don't have a tape/recording of " Liberty Valance", mainly because it has been  aired rather often over the years.  So I go by memory here;  when Tom confronts Rance in the back room at the convention and tells Rance the real story of what happened that fateful night,   Tom admonishes  Rance for feeling guilty over the killing of Liberty Valance. I'm paraphrasing here, Tom says "you didn't kill Valance, I did, and I can live with it.  You made promises to Hallie so make her proud and go back in there and take that nomination"  .  So Tom shares the secret with Rance and it is in the interest of both men to keep that secret. The only other to ever know the truth is Pompey, Tom's friend, and he would never talk..  So Rance goes on to his long, successful political career (with Hallie as his wife)  and Tom is stuck in Shinbone to brood about what could have been (marriage and life with the girl) and never gets over it . He dies a lonely recluse, and  Rance is the only one to really understand why that happened.

 

Well, he DID always have Pompey ya know, Mr.R.

 

(...well, OTHER than that stretch of time Pompey enlisted in the U.S. Army and went by the name of "Sergeant Rutledge" anyway!) ;)

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Funny how one can see a movie for a dozen or more times over the years and remember bits and pieces of the movie, and yet maybe draw some wrong conclusions about the story. I don't have a tape/recording of " Liberty Valance", mainly because it has been  aired rather often over the years.  So I go by memory here;  when Tom confronts Rance in the back room at the convention and tells Rance the real story of what happened that fateful night,   Tom admonishes  Rance for feeling guilty over the killing of Liberty Valance. I'm paraphrasing here, Tom says "you didn't kill Valance, I did, and I can live with it.  You made promises to Hallie so make her proud and go back in there and take that nomination"  .  So Tom shares the secret with Rance and it is in the interest of both men to keep that secret. The only other to ever know the truth is Pompey, Tom's friend, and he would never talk..  So Rance goes on to his long, successful political career (with Hallie as his wife)  and Tom is stuck in Shinbone to brood about what could have been (marriage and life with the girl) and never gets over it . He dies a lonely recluse, and  Rance is the only one to really understand why that happened.

 

I hope Lynn is around to help clear this up;   If Tom really says something to the effect of "I can live with it',  then why would Tom give up his guns.    Why didn't he become a lawman or some other noble profession where his talents would be useful?

 

So if Tom really said 'I can life with it',   he was kidding himself.   Clearly he could NOT live with it (killing Valance in cold blood),  OR the reason things went bad related more to losing Hallie then the killing.

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I hope Lynn is around to help clear this up;   If Tom really says something to the effect of "I can live with it',  then why would Tom give up his guns.    Why didn't he become a lawman or some other noble profession where his talents would be useful?

 

So if Tom really said 'I can life with it',   he was kidding himself.   Clearly he could NOT live with it (killing Valance in cold blood),  OR the reason things went bad related more to losing Hallie then the killing.

 

Yes James. Mr.R is correct. Wayne definitely says "I can live with it" to Stewart in the movie. I remember it well.

 

(...though I can't recall if he added "Pilgrim") ;)

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Yes James. Mr.R is correct. Wayne definitely says "I can live with it" to Stewart in the movie. I remember it well.

 

(...though I can't recall if he added "Pilgrim") ;)

 

So did Tom just say he could live with it (the killing),  when he really couldn't or was the loss of his gal the main reason for his melt down?

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So did Tom just say he could live with it (the killing),  when he really couldn't or was the loss of his gal the main reason for his melt down?

 

To be honest with ya, I'm with Mr.R here James, and think it was more the idea that he lost Hallie to Rance because of his selfless act.

 

And so, getting back to Rick Blaine and how he handled himself after doing pretty much the same thing, I'll bring up the idea that at least Rick had "a cause"(a major world conflict) to then fight for, and as compared to Tom who pretty much was only left to stew over his actions on a lonely western ranch, and with the "cause" of statehood not being that major an issue in comparison.

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To be honest with ya, I'm with Mr.R here, and think it was more the idea that he lost Hallie to Rance because of his selfless act.

 

And so, getting back to Rick Blaine and how he handled himself after doing pretty much the same thing, I'll bring up the idea that at least Rick had "a cause"(a major world conflict) to then fight for, and as compared to Tom who pretty much was only left to stew over his actions on a lonely western ranch, and with the "cause" of statehood not being that major an issue in comparison.

 

Well now I'm back to thinking that Tom was a loser just because of a gal!   ;)

 

Related to Casablanca;  Well that statehood thing and everything that was behind it (e.g. living by the law instead of the gun),  was the a main theme in the movie.   Tom clearly cared about statehood since that was what motivated Tom to tell Rance the truth about the killing.   Tom knew Rance was the man for the job and the man the state and people needed.

 

I also beleive you know my POV about the ending of Casablanca.   Typical Hollywood phoniness as it relates to the actions of Captain Renault at the end.    A realistic ending would have Renault arrest Bogie,  have him tortured and than killed trying to escape.    But the ending was a message ending.     

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Just by chance I was recently shopping at one of those discount chain stores ( they supposedly buy out surplus supplies from other stores)  and what do I find in the discount dvd bin,  THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE, for a cool 5 bucks.  So now in the not too distant future I will carefully review this film on a frame by frame,  word by word basis to analyze it (even use the slow motion and zoom features) to get to the bottom of every minute detail of this film.  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  Stay tuned, this could take awhile.

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Just by chance I was recently shopping at one of those discount chain stores ( they supposedly buy out surplus supplies from other stores)  and what do I find in the discount dvd bin,  THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE, for a cool 5 bucks.  So now in the not too distant future I will carefully review this film on a frame by frame,  word by word basis to analyze it (even use the slow motion and zoom features) to get to the bottom of every minute detail of this film.  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  Stay tuned, this could take awhile.

 

I'm still interested in your take about what the main driver that caused Tom to 'melt down'.  Giving up his guns because he murdered a man makes sense to me.    Why would he give up his guns because he lost his gal?    Becoming a drunk because of a gal makes sense so I assume both factors pushed him to a darker place.     So get your 5 bucks worth and let us know.  ;)

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Just by chance I was recently shopping at one of those discount chain stores ( they supposedly buy out surplus supplies from other stores)  and what do I find in the discount dvd bin,  THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE, for a cool 5 bucks.  So now in the not too distant future I will carefully review this film on a frame by frame,  word by word basis to analyze it (even use the slow motion and zoom features) to get to the bottom of every minute detail of this film.  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  Stay tuned, this could take awhile.

 

 

MrR,

 

There are a lot of layers to peel back when you watch the film. Most of them I never noticed until three or four viewings in.

 

As for when Ranse found out that he didn't actually do the shooting, it is only hinted at in the film.

 

Even if Hallie didn't tell him that she had sent Pompey to "find Mr. Tom" when she was worried that Valance would shoot Ranse in cold blood, somewhere deep inside of him, Ranse knew he wasn't that good of shot to have killed Valance. But, all the hero worship probably kept those thoughts from bubbling too far to the surface for him to really consider and when he meets Tom at the statehood confirmation, his darkest fear is realized and yet, for another number of unknown years didn't talk about it.

 

Hallie likely had some inkling what happened to Doniphon after she married Ranse and they moved to Washington as she was very close to Pete and his wife and likely stayed in touch via letters until they died.

 

Did Hallie tell him after they were married that she had sent Pompey to find Tom and tell him that Valance had challenged Ranse and Ranse wasn't running away or did she wait until after Stoddard came back from the statehood convention and confirm not only what Doniphon had told him but what he always suspected?

 

Either way, Ranse had opportunities to set the record straight long before Doniphon died and never did.

 

It wouldn't have mattered to Doniphon but it created enough of wedge in Stoddard's marriage that when he finally realizes how unhappy Hallie is over the issue and that he might lose her, he sits down and tells the newspaper men the truth of what happened.

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MrR,

 

There are a lot of layers to peel back when you watch the film. Most of them I never noticed until three or four viewings in.

 

As for when Ranse found out that he didn't actually do the shooting, it is only hinted at in the film.

 

Even if Hallie didn't tell him that she had sent Pompey to "find Mr. Tom" when she was worried that Valance would shoot Ranse in cold blood, somewhere deep inside of him, Ranse knew he wasn't that good of shot to have killed Valance. But, all the hero worship probably kept those thoughts from bubbling too far to the surface for him to really consider and when he meets Tom at the statehood confirmation, his darkest fear is realized and yet, for another number of unknown years didn't talk about it.

 

Hallie likely had some inkling what happened to Doniphon after she married Ranse and they moved to Washington as she was very close to Pete and his wife and likely stayed in touch via letters until they died.

 

Did Hallie tell him after they were married that she had sent Pompey to find Tom and tell him that Valance had challenged Ranse and Ranse wasn't running away or did she wait until after Stoddard came back from the statehood convention and confirm not only what Doniphon had told him but what he always suspected?

 

Either way, Ranse had opportunities to set the record straight long before Doniphon died and never did.

 

It wouldn't have mattered to Doniphon but it created enough of wedge in Stoddard's marriage that when he finally realizes how unhappy Hallie is over the issue and that he might lose her, he sits down and tells the newspaper men the truth of what happened.

 

There was really only one part of the plot that I wondered 'was that necessary?' and that was why does Tom's life had to go south after the event.  I assumed that losing Hallie was the reason but don't anymore.     The way I now understand this all centers around the killing and the title of the film and the comment Dargo made;   For the ACTUAL man that killed Valance life had to take a turn for the worst.  This was done to contrast with the fact that the man that people BELIEVE killed Valance takes a turn for the better (for himself as well as the state).     

 

If life would of been great for both Tom and Ranse,  then who actually killed Valance wouldn't have matter and that would make the entire storyline irrelevant.  

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MrR,

 

There are a lot of layers to peel back when you watch the film. Most of them I never noticed until three or four viewings in.

 

As for when Ranse found out that he didn't actually do the shooting, it is only hinted at in the film.

 

Even if Hallie didn't tell him that she had sent Pompey to "find Mr. Tom" when she was worried that Valance would shoot Ranse in cold blood, somewhere deep inside of him, Ranse knew he wasn't that good of shot to have killed Valance. But, all the hero worship probably kept those thoughts from bubbling too far to the surface for him to really consider and when he meets Tom at the statehood confirmation, his darkest fear is realized and yet, for another number of unknown years didn't talk about it.

 

Hallie likely had some inkling what happened to Doniphon after she married Ranse and they moved to Washington as she was very close to Pete and his wife and likely stayed in touch via letters until they died.

 

Did Hallie tell him after they were married that she had sent Pompey to find Tom and tell him that Valance had challenged Ranse and Ranse wasn't running away or did she wait until after Stoddard came back from the statehood convention and confirm not only what Doniphon had told him but what he always suspected?

 

Either way, Ranse had opportunities to set the record straight long before Doniphon died and never did.

 

It wouldn't have mattered to Doniphon but it created enough of wedge in Stoddard's marriage that when he finally realizes how unhappy Hallie is over the issue and that he might lose her, he sits down and tells the newspaper men the truth of what happened.

 

Lynn, once again I believe you're reading a few things into this that were never even hinted at, such as the idea that Ranse had some kind of an inkling that it wasn't just a lucky shot from his revolver that felled Valance.

 

Remember the scene immediately after the shooting where Hallie is administering to Ranse's wounds, and when Tom sees by Hallie's face that it would be hopeless for him to think she was still his girl? And, THAT is when Tom says something to her AND Ranse that he was "sorry he didn't get there in time".

 

And so, taking all this into account, AND the fact of the VERY believable expression of surprise on Ranse's face (thanks to Jimmy always being such a great naturalistic actor, of course) when Tom informs him at the statehood convention that he had actually shot Valance, THIS is the reason I still believe he didn't know Tom had actually done the deed any time earlier.

 

AND, as I said a little earlier in this thing, for him to have told anyone else of this before Tom died years later would NOT have only been "inconvenient" for him, BUT also for Tom, as Tom COULD have been brought up on charges of murder.

 

Yep, I really think that THIS is the reason Ranse never told anyone what had really happened...well, except maybe much later to Hallie, and thus THIS might be why Hallie still had such affection for Tom all those later years...because he was the man who had done the selfless act and saved her true love from dying on that dusty street that night.

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