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cigarjoe

Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo. vs The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

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A friend of mine posted this on another forum,  we'll abbreviate  Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo as (BBC) and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly as (GBU). I curious as to what members here think.

 

For films that have a principal or "original" language, the alternate dubs, whether valid or not, must be seen as subordinate to the principal one. The film in its "original" language is the film itself, its essential form, the alternate dubs are versions. Those kinds of films are not what I'm concerned with here.

 

When Leone was making his Westerns the Italian film industry's practice of post-looping dialogue allowed for the introduction of alternate modes of creative expression into the film/s produced. Some of this had to do with the different performances supplied by the different vocal talents recorded for different markets. But there were other factors as well, including changes to the script, sound design, music, etc. The aggregate changes made from one print to another could be substantial. When, after opening a bottle, you start adding water after every sip you take, eventually you have something that isn't wine.

 

I will rehearse a story known to us all. After premiering his third Italian Western in Rome in 1966, Leone took the film and recut it, then recut it again for distribution in English-speaking countries. Mickey Knox was hired to write dialogue. Vocal talents such as Eastwood, Wallach, and LVC were assembled to record lines and match them to the images on screen. For whatever reason, changes to the soundtrack were also made. A new title was chosen. When The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly was released in 1967, it was a very different film from Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo. 

 

Is GBU a version of BBC, or is BBC a version of GBU? Where lies the essential film? BBC was released first--is that sufficient to establish primacy? GBU uses vocals supplied by the three principal actors--is that sufficient to establish primacy? Is the question of primacy important at all? It isn't if you consider BBC and GBU two separate films.

 

Again as we all know, in 2003 an attempt was made to extend GBU by adding material from BBC with dodgy new English dubbing. Successful or not, this new version of GBU is just that--a new version of GBU.  Is it also a new version of BBC? It doesn't seem very useful to think so. It is simpler to see GBU 1967 and GBU 2003 as two versions of one film, just as the Roman premier of BBC is a different version of the Western that went into subsequent release around Italy. But having looked at those films in that way, the wordversion then seems completely inadequate when comparing BBC (1966) to GBU (1967).

 

To restate: I'm not interested in applying this approach across the board. I don't care to be systematic. The films of Leone are a special area of concern. I'm interested in the alternate dubs of those films. I don't really care about the alternate dubs of other filmmakers.

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A friend of mine posted this on another forum,  we'll abbreviate  Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo as (BBC) and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly as (GBU). I curious as to what members here think.
 
For films that have a principal or "original" language, the alternate dubs, whether valid or not, must be seen as subordinate to the principal one. The film in its "original" language is the film itself, its essential form, the alternate dubs are versions. Those kinds of films are not what I'm concerned with here.
 
When Leone was making his Westerns the Italian film industry's practice of post-looping dialogue allowed for the introduction of alternate modes of creative expression into the film/s produced. Some of this had to do with the different performances supplied by the different vocal talents recorded for different markets. But there were other factors as well, including changes to the script, sound design, music, etc. The aggregate changes made from one print to another could be substantial. When, after opening a bottle, you start adding water after every sip you take, eventually you have something that isn't wine.
 
I will rehearse a story known to us all. After premiering his third Italian Western in Rome in 1966, Leone took the film and recut it, then recut it again for distribution in English-speaking countries. Mickey Knox was hired to write dialogue. Vocal talents such as Eastwood, Wallach, and LVC were assembled to record lines and match them to the images on screen. For whatever reason, changes to the soundtrack were also made. A new title was chosen. When The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly was released in 1967, it was a very different film from Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo. 
 
Is GBU a version of BBC, or is BBC a version of GBU? Where lies the essential film? BBC was released first--is that sufficient to establish primacy? GBU uses vocals supplied by the three principal actors--is that sufficient to establish primacy? Is the question of primacy important at all? It isn't if you consider BBC and GBU two separate films.
 
Again as we all know, in 2003 an attempt was made to extend GBU by adding material from BBC with dodgy new English dubbing. Successful or not, this new version of GBU is just that--a new version of GBU.  Is it also a new version of BBC? It doesn't seem very useful to think so. It is simpler to see GBU 1967 and GBU 2003 as two versions of one film, just as the Roman premier of BBC is a different version of the Western that went into subsequent release around Italy. But having looked at those films in that way, the wordversion then seems completely inadequate when comparing BBC (1966) to GBU (1967).
 
To restate: I'm not interested in applying this approach across the board. I don't care to be systematic. The films of Leone are a special area of concern. I'm interested in the alternate dubs of those films. I don't really care about the alternate dubs of other filmmakers. 

 

FYI: Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo translates as The Good, The Ugly, and The Bad.

 

I don't watch these types of films, so I can't weigh in.

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when i watch the spaghetti westerns of sergio corbucci, the great silence, the original django, the perdition benders (darn censors) i'll watch them in the original italian with english subtitles.

i've never done that with the dollars trilogy, although the next time i audition the good, the bad and the ugly, i probably will.
a few years back, eli wallach redubbed some of his lines for some found footage.

the effect was a bit jarring to say the least.
 

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It must be understood that in 1966 Leone spoke very little English, so he wasn't directly involved in dubbing his films for American versions. Screenwriter Sergio Donati worked on GUB dubbing, in NY, and according to him, the American dubbings of A Fistful of Dollars and A Few Dollars More had been done with very little respect for the Italian original dialogues.

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It must be understood that in 1966 Leone spoke very little English, so he wasn't directly involved in dubbing his films for American versions. Screenwriter Sergio Donati worked on GUB dubbing, in NY, and according to him, the American dubbings of A Fistful of Dollars and A Few Dollars More had been done with very little respect for the Italian original dialogues.

Of course that is the whole point, they shot the films MOS, without sound, all the actors spoke their own languages English, Spanish, German, Italian, some of the Andalusians just counted numbers, fast or slow with various emotions, there wasn't any original Italian dialogue, except in the written script.

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Well, we can consider the Italian dubbed dialogues as "original", since Leone himself supervised and re-wrote dialogues for post-synchronization. The English track, on the other hand, was dubbed without Leone's approval, so I am not sure how far it corresponds to the director's intention.

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Well, we can consider the Italian dubbed dialogues as "original", since Leone himself supervised and re-wrote dialogues for post-synchronization. The English track, on the other hand, was dubbed without Leone's approval, so I am not sure how far it corresponds to the director's intention.

As original to Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo yes,  but Leone took the film and recut it, after the Rome premier, then recut it again for distribution in English-speaking countries. Mickey Knox was hired to write dialogue. Vocal talents such as Eastwood, Wallach, and LVC were assembled to record lines and match them to the images on screen, and that is what we have with the original US release of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

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