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GenRipper66

Billy Bigelow- wife beater or sympathetic soul?

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I was just watching 'Carousel' and a scene at the end posed a question...

 

The scene is right after Billy appears from the dead to his daughter. As she is running away from him, he slaps her hands/arms as she pulls away. Next scene is the mother outside looking for the man and the daughter is pining about (paraphrasing here..) how 'she was hit so hard but she couldn't feel it... It was like a kiss instead of a slap...' Shirley Jones gets this warm glow like 'I know who that wife beater was...'. Is this a product of the 50s and the message that sometimes a good slug just means I love you?

 

Any movies that had messages of a particular era that could not be done today? Or, how would certain endings be different if done to 2014 politically correct standards?

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I was in Carousel in 6th grade, a strange show for 10 and 11 year olds. I had one line and was in all the choruses as a sailor and fisherman.  Rodgers and Hammerstein shows were not musical comedies, they dealt with serious issues. I don't remember the film as well as our school production, but Billy does get punished. My one line was "Poor Julie" when Billy is killed.

 

But if the film is as you say, it probably would be changed a bit.

 

There was one line at least that was changed for our school production, the song that goes

 

"The clock just ticks your life away, there's no relief and sight. It's cooking' and scrubbing' and sewing all day, and the same thing's every night."

 

I didn't know until decades later that the line is really "...and God knows what all night!"

 

But in those days, 11 year-olds couldn't have dealt with that line.

 

 

 

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I was just watching 'Carousel' and a scene at the end posed a question...

 

The scene is right after Billy appears from the dead to his daughter. As she is running away from him, he slaps her hands/arms as she pulls away. Next scene is the mother outside looking for the man and the daughter is pining about (paraphrasing here..) how 'she was hit so hard but she couldn't feel it... It was like a kiss instead of a slap...' Shirley Jones gets this warm glow like 'I know who that wife beater was...'. Is this a product of the 50s and the message that sometimes a good slug just means I love you?

 

Any movies that had messages of a particular era that could not be done today? Or, how would certain endings be different if done to 2014 politically correct standards?

 

Instead of naming specific movies I'm going to name a specific situations that frequency occured in movies:

 

A women is an independent working gal.  The man doesn't like that and demands she quit her job once they get married.   At the end the women gives in, after she finally gets that the man is right and she was just being stubborn.    If that was done today,  the women would continue to work.

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Instead of naming specific movies I'm going to name a specific situations that frequency occured in movies:

 

A women is an independent working gal. The man doesn't like that and demands she quit her job once they get married. At the end the women gives in, after she finally gets that the man is right and she was just being stubborn. If that was done today, the women would continue to work.

Yeah, women's roles have changed big time. It used to be all about getting the 'Mrs' degree. A couple of movies come to mind for me... I think 'Birth of a Nation' would end a little differently (Kl@n would not be considered heroes for stopping blacks to vote) and in 'Tea and Sympathy', Deborah Kerr sleeping with the Tom Lee character would not cure him of being gay. If he returned 10 yrs later, he would NOT be married (to a woman, at least).

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Although this is not exactly what you were asking, I am consistently aware when watching movies at how male dominance is portrayed as erotic.  Several scenes come to mind when men dominate women and eventhough the female is resistant, "no" definitely does not mean "no."  It simply means "I am saying 'no' but what I really mean is 'yes'. I am just too polite and virginal to say 'yes'."    Two different movies come to mind:  Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra and Martha Hyer.  She is definitely resistant to his advances and yet his dominance is seen as acceptable and even sexy and erotic.  On the opposite end of the spectrum, in John Wayne's McClintock, the Wayne character actually chases a half dressed Maureen O'Hara down the street and aggressively spanks her with a frying pan.  The next scene shown is the window of the bedroom.  Aggression leads to great sex is the take away message.  I don't think you could get by with either of these approaches today without a women's group taking exception to it.  As a female, I personally believe that the desire for a female to be dominated is deeply ingrained in a female's psyche.  When a male dominates her, she has the self-knowledge of knowing she acted pristine but has the fun of enjoying the physical.  I think this is basically what has lead to the explosion in female erotica of the "Fifty Shades of Grey" type.  Again, I know this was tangential but your comment made me start thinking about how men dominating women in film has changed according to feminist movements. 

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Although this is not exactly what you were asking, I am consistently aware when watching movies at how male dominance is portrayed as erotic. Several scenes come to mind when men dominate women and eventhough the female is resistant, "no" definitely does not mean "no." It simply means "I am saying 'no' but what I really mean is 'yes'. I am just too polite and virginal to say 'yes'." Two different movies come to mind: Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra and Martha Hyer. She is definitely resistant to his advances and yet his dominance is seen as acceptable and even sexy and erotic. On the opposite end of the spectrum, in John Wayne's McClintock, the Wayne character actually chases a half dressed Maureen O'Hara down the street and aggressively spanks her with a frying pan. The next scene shown is the window of the bedroom. Aggression leads to great sex is the take away message. I don't think you could get by with either of these approaches today without a women's group taking exception to it. As a female, I personally believe that the desire for a female to be dominated is deeply ingrained in a female's psyche. When a male dominates her, she has the self-knowledge of knowing she acted pristine but has the fun of enjoying the physical. I think this is basically what has lead to the explosion in female erotica of the "Fifty Shades of Grey" type. Again, I know this was tangential but your comment made me start thinking about how men dominating women in film has changed according to feminist movements.

 

Amen! Many scenes that were "she said 'no', but she really meant 'yes'", would constitute rape in today's world. It's amazing how they play up the fallacy of 'once I bed her, she's mine'... Sickening...

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Although this is not exactly what you were asking, I am consistently aware when watching movies at how male dominance is portrayed as erotic.  Several scenes come to mind when men dominate women and eventhough the female is resistant, "no" definitely does not mean "no."  It simply means "I am saying 'no' but what I really mean is 'yes'. I am just too polite and virginal to say 'yes'."    Two different movies come to mind:  Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra and Martha Hyer.  She is definitely resistant to his advances and yet his dominance is seen as acceptable and even sexy and erotic.  On the opposite end of the spectrum, in John Wayne's McClintock, the Wayne character actually chases a half dressed Maureen O'Hara down the street and aggressively spanks her with a frying pan.  The next scene shown is the window of the bedroom.  Aggression leads to great sex is the take away message.  I don't think you could get by with either of these approaches today without a women's group taking exception to it.  As a female, I personally believe that the desire for a female to be dominated is deeply ingrained in a female's psyche.  When a male dominates her, she has the self-knowledge of knowing she acted pristine but has the fun of enjoying the physical.  I think this is basically what has lead to the explosion in female erotica of the "Fifty Shades of Grey" type.  Again, I know this was tangential but your comment made me start thinking about how men dominating women in film has changed according to feminist movements. 

 

Well the Gone With the Wind 'up the stairs' scene falls into the above category;  How one views this type of scene is very subjective;  Today most would say it was rape but at this forum I have found women that feel it isn't since Scarlett is smilling so much in the morning.     I really don't get that.    Is it because Rhett is Gable?   i.e.  if Rhett looked like Borgnine would that change things?

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Although this is not exactly what you were asking, I am consistently aware when watching movies at how male dominance is portrayed as erotic.  Several scenes come to mind when men dominate women and eventhough the female is resistant, "no" definitely does not mean "no."  It simply means "I am saying 'no' but what I really mean is 'yes'. I am just too polite and virginal to say 'yes'."    Two different movies come to mind:  Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra and Martha Hyer.  She is definitely resistant to his advances and yet his dominance is seen as acceptable and even sexy and erotic.  On the opposite end of the spectrum, in John Wayne's McClintock, the Wayne character actually chases a half dressed Maureen O'Hara down the street and aggressively spanks her with a frying pan.  The next scene shown is the window of the bedroom.  Aggression leads to great sex is the take away message.  I don't think you could get by with either of these approaches today without a women's group taking exception to it.  As a female, I personally believe that the desire for a female to be dominated is deeply ingrained in a female's psyche.  When a male dominates her, she has the self-knowledge of knowing she acted pristine but has the fun of enjoying the physical.  I think this is basically what has lead to the explosion in female erotica of the "Fifty Shades of Grey" type.  Again, I know this was tangential but your comment made me start thinking about how men dominating women in film has changed according to feminist movements. 

 

In other words, and maybe what you're REALLY kind'a sort'a sayin' here is that few women EVEN TODAY have the guts to "let it(their sexuality) all hang out" like Mae West did over 80 years ago now, RIGHT?! And STILL in this day and age that in the back of almost all women's minds they still hear their mother tellin' 'em that they "have to play the game in order to get a good man". RIGHT?!

 

Yep, if I haven't misread ya hear, yep, I'd say that that might be true, alright. And the reason many women, but not ALL of course, have a strange affinity for the "bad boys", 'cause it takes most the responsibility away from any decisions they might make in regard to this.

 

My bottom-line point here being that I'VE always had a little issue with the thought that it's "still the men in the world who keep women down", when IN FACT in the WESTERN world anyway, for every man "keepin' a woman down", there's a mother who's been doin' the same thing but ONLY in a more subtle manner!

 

(...and now talk amongst yourselves about this, as I've got a run down to Phoenix with that little shuttle company I've got a little part-time gig with...don't worry..I'll be back later this evening to collect all the slings and arrows directed my way for sayin' what I just did)

Edited by Dargo

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As a response to the responses to my response, :) I agree that the rape scene in Gone With the Wind was portrayed as erotic dominance ending in consensual sex (that obviously pleased Scarlet greatly, thus the smile in the morning). In the novel it is very clear that Rhett forces himself on her.  Of course the Hays Commission would have NEVER let that fly.  In addition at this point in time, it was unheard of that a husband could actually rape his wife.  He was "entitled" to all her "services". 

 

As far as Mae West and women being comfortable with their sexuality in today's culture...and this is simply one woman's opinion...I am not projecting on all women because each individual's experience is different, however, I think today's women could learn a couple of things from Mae West about being comfortable with her body and her sexuality.  The only problem I see with Ms. West  is that generally she was using sex to achieve something in the way of an advantage over a man.  So even with Ms. West, I am unsure how comfortable she was with sexuality.  I get the impression that she was using as a "tool", a means to an end, so to speak. 

 

In addition, I believe women in general are bombarded with sexual messages that seem at odds.  From the beginning, our mothers raise us in a Judeo-Christian society that tells us good girls don't.  Then the message becomes good girls sometimes have to but shouldn't enjoy it.  Another version of the message includes bad girls do and get to enjoy it, but since they are being bad, they have no self respect.  I think the most harmful message of all is "Hey girls, you can do it if you want with anyone you want to.  Go ahead have sex like a man!"  All the messages are flawed in some way and consequently healthy sexual growth is thwarted.

 

Lastly, I agree that for every man who is made responsible for keeping a "good woman" down, there is another woman somewhere, a mother, a jealous friend, an envious co-worker, an insecure aquaintance who is keeping a woman down.  I don't think women have to blame men for keeping women down.  It is my belief and opinion (only my opinion) that women keep women down...and have been doing it for centuries.  

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As a response to the responses to my response, :) I agree that the rape scene in Gone With the Wind was portrayed as erotic dominance ending in consensual sex (that obviously pleased Scarlet greatly, thus the smile in the morning). In the novel it is very clear that Rhett forces himself on her.  Of course the Hays Commission would have NEVER let that fly.  In addition at this point in time, it was unheard of that a husband could actually rape his wife.  He was "entitled" to all her "services". 

 

As far as Mae West and women being comfortable with their sexuality in today's culture...and this is simply one woman's opinion...I am not projecting on all women because each individual's experience is different, however, I think today's women could learn a couple of things from Mae West about being comfortable with her body and her sexuality.  The only problem I see with Ms. West  is that generally she was using sex to achieve something in the way of an advantage over a man.  So even with Ms. West, I am unsure how comfortable she was with sexuality.  I get the impression that she was using as a "tool", a means to an end, so to speak. 

 

In addition, I believe women in general are bombarded with sexual messages that seem at odds.  From the beginning, our mothers raise us in a Judeo-Christian society that tells us good girls don't.  Then the message becomes good girls sometimes have to but shouldn't enjoy it.  Another version of the message includes bad girls do and get to enjoy it, but since they are being bad, they have no self respect.  I think the most harmful message of all is "Hey girls, you can do it if you want with anyone you want to.  Go ahead have sex like a man!"  All the messages are flawed in some way and consequently healthy sexual growth is thwarted.

 

Lastly, I agree that for every man who is made responsible for keeping a "good woman" down, there is another woman somewhere, a mother, a jealous friend, an envious co-worker, an insecure aquaintance who is keeping a woman down.  I don't think women have to blame men for keeping women down.  It is my belief and opinion (only my opinion) that women keep women down...and have been doing it for centuries.  

 

Good book related to your last paragraph;  Who Built the Jails  -   it is about how women are the primary ones holding back or keeping a women down or pushing women to do really silly or harmful things like wear high heal shoes etc...

 

I don't know if women have been doing that for centuries (I think the vast majority of the blame belong to men),  but clearly since the 60's it is women that cause other women to feel insecure.    

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Lastly, I agree that for every man who is made responsible for keeping a "good woman" down, there is another woman somewhere, a mother, a jealous friend, an envious co-worker, an insecure aquaintance who is keeping a woman down.  I don't think women have to blame men for keeping women down.  

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Today in the U.S. the only person keeping a woman "down" is herself. 

Sadly, that is not the case worldwide.

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Lastly, I agree that for every man who is made responsible for keeping a "good woman" down, there is another woman somewhere, a mother, a jealous friend, an envious co-worker, an insecure aquaintance who is keeping a woman down.  I don't think women have to blame men for keeping women down.  

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Today in the U.S. the only person keeping a woman "down" is herself. 

Sadly, that is not the case worldwide.

 

Yep, in the grand scheme of things, it IS incumbent upon and the responsibility of each individual to possess enough self-confidence in order to stand against being "held down".

 

And yes again Tiki, it IS sad that this is not the case worldwide, and especially in parts of our planet known as the "Second and Third World". And which is the reason it rankles me to NO end when new arrivals to the "First World", especially to these United States, BRING vestiges of their often backward and sexist culture here, and which PART of that appears to be teaching their female offspring that they will "never be as worthy" and their male siblings.

 

(...yep, THAT sorta thing is GUARANTEED to PI$$ ME OFF...and is just ONE of the reasons why "assimilation" is NOT a "bad freakin' thing"!!!!)

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