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HITS & MISSES: Yesterday, Today & Tomorrow on TCM


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On August 15, 2019 at 9:42 AM, Hibi said:

Dont forget everyone the premiere of WHEN TOMORROW COMES tom'w night with Irene and Charles Boyer! Have been wanting to see this film for decades!

Ben confirmed that indeed it was a premiere.  Unfortunately the copy that they could obtain was not very sharp.

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7 hours ago, Bogie56 said:

Sunday, August 18

childrens-hour-1961-movie-james-garner-a

12:30 p.m.  The Children’s Hour (1961).  I saw this on stage not long ago with Keira Knightley in the Audrey Hepburn role.  She was pretty good too.

Curious how the lesbian 'angle' was handled in this modern version of the fine Hellman play.

E.g. did she come-out to her friend \ business partner (or her boyfriend) a lot earlier in this play than the 1961 film?     

I believe this is key to the entire story in that children sense things that adults often don't (e.g. her boyfriend and one could say even the Audrey character herself,  didn't pick up any vibes all those years).   

That there was 'something in the air' that the children picked up on and that lead to the lies and future downfall for all involved.

 

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I'm not familiar with the original Hellman play, but I always took it that there was NO "thing" between Kate and Karen, but a lie started by a student who resented being punished for some infraction or other. And it's no surprise the lie got out of hand as I've seen similar things happen( in "real" life and to people I know) that caused undue trouble for the targets of vicious rumor. 

Sepiatone

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3 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

I'm not familiar with the original Hellman play, but I always took it that there was NO "thing" between Kate and Karen, but a lie started by a student who resented being punished for some infraction or other. And it's no surprise the lie got out of hand as I've seen similar things happen( in "real" life and to people I know) that caused undue trouble for the targets of vicious rumor. 

Sepiatone

In the 1961 film it is Martha and Karen.    Martha is a lesbian and she had strong emotional and sexual feelings for Karen,  that becomes obvious.   So it was just a 'one-way-thing'.    Martha also starts to treat the boyfriend harshly;  this is all because he is her rival;  he is going to steal her love,  take her away and make her have babies!   This caused Martha a lot of resentment. 

Of course the children lied but my point was that if the two women were both heterosexual,  would these lies have taken place?    

Wasn't one of the girls (the trouble maker?) reading Lady Chatterley's Lover?   Doesn't matter what book but it was a book about sexuality and that book was part of the plot to show that the girls were highly interested in the topic (perfectly normal of course).

If there was so sexual tension between the two gals (even if only known by one of them),   I just don't see any story.    Note that in the 1936 version all 3 are heterosexual and therefore there is sexual tension between the man and the two gals (which leads to the lies).     If Martha had been a lesbian in that version,  there would be no story.    See the point now:   That there has to be sexual tension,  that is observed subconsciously by the children, for there to be a story and the lies.

 

 

 

 

    

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20 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

In the 1961 film it is Martha and Karen.    Martha is a lesbian and she had strong emotional and sexual feelings for Karen,  that becomes obvious.   So it was just a 'one-way-thing'.    Martha also starts to treat the boyfriend harshly;  this is all because he is her rival;  he is going to steal her love,  take her away and make her have babies!   This caused Martha a lot of resentment. 

Of course the children lied but my point was that if the two women were both heterosexual,  would these lies have taken place?    

Wasn't one of the girls (the trouble maker?) reading Lady Chatterley's Lover?   Doesn't matter what book but it was a book about sexuality and that book was part of the plot to show that the girls were highly interested in the topic (perfectly normal of course).

If there was so sexual tension between the two gals (even if only known by one of them),   I just don't see any story.    Note that in the 1936 version all 3 are heterosexual and therefore there is sexual tension between the man and the two gals (which leads to the lies).     If Martha had been a lesbian in that version,  there would be no story.    See the point now:   That there has to be sexual tension,  that is observed subconsciously by the children, for there to be a story and the lies.

 

 

 

 

    

The play was based on an actual, real life event too.

-The play was partly inspired by an actual case in Edinburgh, Scotland in 1810, "Miss Pirie and Miss Woods vs. Dame Cumming Gordon." Two school teachers, Jane Pirie and Marianne Woods, were falsely accused of having a lesbian affair by a pupil, Jane Gordon. Under the influence of Jane's grandmother, Dame Cumming Gordon, the school's students were removed by their parents and the school was shut down. Pirie and Woods filed a libel suit against Dame Cumming Gordon, and won the case, but given the destruction of their lives and standing in the community, it was considered a hollow victory.

 

God, imagine how embarrassing that must have been to live with a rumor like that floating around about you. Poor women.

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9 minutes ago, Gershwin fan said:

The play was based on an actual, real life event too.

-The play was partly inspired by an actual case in Edinburgh, Scotland in 1810, "Miss Pirie and Miss Woods vs. Dame Cumming Gordon." Two school teachers, Jane Pirie and Marianne Woods, were falsely accused of having a lesbian affair by a pupil, Jane Gordon. Under the influence of Jane's grandmother, Dame Cumming Gordon, the school's students were removed by their parents and the school was shut down. Pirie and Woods filed a libel suit against Dame Cumming Gordon, and won the case, but given the destruction of their lives and standing in the community, it was considered a hollow victory.

 

God, imagine how embarrassing that must have been to live with a rumor like that floating around about you. Poor women.

But was one of the women actually a lesbian?   

With regards to your last sentence;   This relates to the point I'm trying to make and "must have been to live with a rumor like that":

Wouldn't how one felt about a false rumor be related to their internal feelings toward their business partner\friend?

I know it has for me.    E.g.  when I was single and girlfriends would accuse me of cheating;  if I had NO attraction towards that other gal,  I would react very forcefully to my girlfriend and her false accusations.

But if I had a very strong attraction to the gal,  my internal thinking process was more along the lines of 'yea,,,,  I was thinking about making a pass,, I wanted to,,  I was planning on it,,,,    man,  I guess my girlfriend clued in on something that was likely to happen".     Most of the time I would end up breaking up with the girlfriend with the line of: "while I didn't cheat on you,,, I wanted to,,,,, so this is over" and I would go after that other gal.

  

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6 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Curious how the lesbian 'angle' was handled in this modern version of the fine Hellman play.

 

If memory serves it was played just as in the 1961 film.  It is a big dramatic character reveal which stuns everyone on stage and in the audience.  Hellman leads the audience to believe it is a malicious rumour.  The little girl was up to mischief as there was no real reciprocal relationship between the two women.  And of course it becomes very hard to live with.

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29 minutes ago, Bogie56 said:

If memory serves it was played just as in the 1961 film.  It is a big dramatic character reveal which stuns everyone on stage and in the audience.  Hellman leads the audience to believe it is a malicious rumour.  The little girl was up to mischief as there was no real reciprocal relationship between the two women.  And of course it becomes very hard to live with.

What to you think about my point that the eyes of a child were able to pick up subliminal clues that Martha was giving toward Karen,  that Karen and her boyfriend couldn't pick up on and completely missed?     Here is another theory;  Karen and her boyfriend have the typical view-of-the-times when it comes to homosexuality.    Unlike children, who have yet to be taught about the subject,   Karen and the boyfriend have been,  and since they, like all other 'normal' folks in their era,  viewed homosexuality in a negative light.    This is why they (but Karen especially),  didn't know Marsha was a lesbian and had feeling beyond friendship.    It was just to out-there for them to see.     One scene in the movie that I believe makes this point is the one were the boyfriend tells the two they are all leaving, together and will settle in another town,  together.    Martha rejects this and we in the audience know why (living with those two while love with Karen would have been torture).

BUT Karen and the boyfriend are clueless.      

 

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18 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

In the 1961 film it is Martha and Karen.    Martha is a lesbian and she had strong emotional and sexual feelings for Karen,  that becomes obvious.   So it was just a 'one-way-thing'.    Martha also starts to treat the boyfriend harshly;  this is all because he is her rival;  he is going to steal her love,  take her away and make her have babies!   This caused Martha a lot of resentment. 

Of course the children lied but my point was that if the two women were both heterosexual,  would these lies have taken place?    

Wasn't one of the girls (the trouble maker?) reading Lady Chatterley's Lover?   Doesn't matter what book but it was a book about sexuality and that book was part of the plot to show that the girls were highly interested in the topic (perfectly normal of course).

If there was so sexual tension between the two gals (even if only known by one of them),   I just don't see any story.    Note that in the 1936 version all 3 are heterosexual and therefore there is sexual tension between the man and the two gals (which leads to the lies).     If Martha had been a lesbian in that version,  there would be no story.    See the point now:   That there has to be sexual tension,  that is observed subconsciously by the children, for there to be a story and the lies.

 

 

 

 

    

But what I recall from the movie is that the rumor of a lesbian affair between Martha( and thanks for the correction, James) and Karen were started by a conniving, resentful girl at the school, who also had trouble convincing the others her claim of actually "seeing" such behavior by the two women, and had to coerce at least one girl (Veronica Cartwright I think) into backing her lie up.   And none of the other girls at the school got any hint of sexual tension, subconsciously or subliminal  between the two women.  Not saying such a thing couldn't be misconstrued by schoolgirls, but those girls seemingly not putting forth any disagreement to the charges was due more to peer pressure than actual acceptance of a lie. 

And lies to that effect can be dangerous and life damaging.  Never happened to me, but we're not far removed(and in some places it's still going on) from a time when a lifelong bachelor is believed to BE so because he's probably gay.  And I've both seen and known cases where either a man or his child was removed from the home because, and with NO concrete proof offered, it was rumored he sexually molested his daughter(or son).  About 20 or so years ago, a teacher in Redford, MI was fired and blackballed from teaching because of a rumor of impropriety with a six year old boy in the school he was teaching.  The Mother complained to the newspapers, "The same thing happened in CHICAGO!", which caused the reporter to do some investigating.  Seems she made the same charge against a teacher there, and when she filed suit, the Chicago school board quickly settled financially to avoid too much scandal.  But it turned out there was no misconduct on that teacher's part, nor any on the Redford teacher's part, it was an attempt at extortion, but by then it was too late.  The man is no longer a teacher and moved out of state.  I think that child is living with relatives while his Mother is still serving time...

Sepiatone

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45 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

But what I recall from the movie is that the rumor of a lesbian affair between Martha( and thanks for the correction, James) and Karen were started by a conniving, resentful girl at the school, who also had trouble convincing the others her claim of actually "seeing" such behavior by the two women, and had to coerce at least one girl (Veronica Cartwright I think) into backing her lie up.   And none of the other girls at the school got any hint of sexual tension, subconsciously or subliminal  between the two women.  Not saying such a thing couldn't be misconstrued by schoolgirls, but those girls seemingly not putting forth any disagreement to the charges was due more to peer pressure than actual acceptance of a lie. 

Of course maybe 'it' played out the way you're saying and it was just a rare coincidence that one of the two teachers was a lesbian making the lie much more damaging to these three.

(because if Martha wasn't a lesbian,  she wouldn't have killed herself). 

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10 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Of course maybe 'it' played out the way you're saying and it was just a rare coincidence that one of the two teachers was a lesbian making the lie much more damaging to these three.

(because if Martha wasn't a lesbian,  she wouldn't have killed herself). 

In the original case, none of them were lesbians. They were both straight and the rumor was slander by the little girl.

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5 minutes ago, Gershwin fan said:

In the original case, none of them were lesbians. They were both straight and the rumor was slander by the little girl.

I assume neither of the two women committed suicide (but as you already noted their lives were ruined).

Also,  in the original case was one of the women engaged?    (or did Hellman add the male character?).

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I assume neither of the two women committed suicide (but as you already noted their lives were ruined).

Also,  in the original case was one of the women engaged?

 

It doesn't say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Pirie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Woods

"I am utterly ignorant of what was laid to my charge and I am not conscious of anything," Marianne Woods told one mother.[5]

It was purely slander against them though, certainly.

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28 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

.

(because if Martha wasn't a lesbian,  she wouldn't have killed herself). 

Not necessarily.  The writer could have been thinking the scandal, based on a lie and the devastation to her life and livelihood might drive someone to that end.  For another example:

The brother of a guy I worked with commited suicide because the company he worked at for 25 years closed up and went out of business.  And it turned out that most of the others affected by this found jobs at one of that company's subsidiaries.

Sepiatone

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Tuesday, August 20

2c5ae027c9a81629a0036010ec68c6b4--old-ho

Dorothy McGuire day.  A Tree Grows In Brooklyn (1945) at 10:30 p.m. is my favourite but I have yet to see …

doves.jpg

8 a.m.  Flight of the Doves (1971) With Oliver! cast Ron Moody and Jack Wild.

 
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22 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Not necessarily.  The writer could have been thinking the scandal, based on a lie and the devastation to her life and livelihood might drive someone to that end.  For another example:

The brother of a guy I worked with commited suicide because the company he worked at for 25 years closed up and went out of business.  And it turned out that most of the others affected by this found jobs at one of that company's subsidiaries.

Sepiatone

Y'know JAMES...

I apologize since most of my commentary was based on what I remembered about a movie I haven't seen in many years.  But as it happened, just a couple or so short hours after getting out of the forum yesterday, I caught the last 45 or so minutes of the movie on TCM.  And what struck me was this......

MARTHA  was upset because she thought she was the cause behind all the scandal and Karen being dragged down by it.  By the dialog, it appeared to me that Martha was struggling with confusion about her sexuality, and it was SHE who (and mistakenly) thought the girls at the school "picked up" on some "subliminal" or "subconscious"  hints of her possible lesbianism.  And the only "sexual tension" was HER feelings for KAREN, which really isn't true sexual tension, since(as the saying goes) it takes two, etc. But after her confession of her feelings to Karen, the girl's Grandmother comes in and apologizes for everything because the girl confessed to her that she made the whole thing up.  And it showed Martha that if she just kept quiet, there would have been a "no harm, no foul"  conclusion to the incident, But that she couldn't bear the needless "coming out" to Karen about her feelings and all,  well, that might have led to her suicide.  

Sepiatone

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Among some of the less familiar Dorothy McGuire films: Till the End of Time is a smaller scale, more romantic version of Best Years of Our Lives as the gorgeous Guy Madison returns from WWII to fall for an older woman, a rather neurotic widow played by Dorothy McGuire. Robert Mitchum has a great supporting role as his GI buddy who was injured in the war both physically and emotionally.

Susan Slade is recommended to connoisseurs of, um, not so great films. The house in Monterey, however, is a beauty.

Invitation isn't as good a romantic film as Till the End of Time or The Enchanted Cottage, but it has a beautiful main theme by Bronislau Kaper, also used in A Life of Her Own.

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2 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Y'know JAMES...

I apologize since most of my commentary was based on what I remembered about a movie I haven't seen in many years.  But as it happened, just a couple or so short hours after getting out of the forum yesterday, I caught the last 45 or so minutes of the movie on TCM.  And what struck me was this......

MARTHA  was upset because she thought she was the cause behind all the scandal and Karen being dragged down by it.  By the dialog, it appeared to me that Martha was struggling with confusion about her sexuality, and it was SHE who (and mistakenly) thought the girls at the school "picked up" on some "subliminal" or "subconscious"  hints of her possible lesbianism.  And the only "sexual tension" was HER feelings for KAREN, which really isn't true sexual tension, since(as the saying goes) it takes two, etc. But after her confession of her feelings to Karen, the girl's Grandmother comes in and apologizes for everything because the girl confessed to her that she made the whole thing up.  And it showed Martha that if she just kept quiet, there would have been a "no harm, no foul"  conclusion to the incident, But that she couldn't bear the needless "coming out" to Karen about her feelings and all,  well, that might have led to her suicide.  

Sepiatone

The kids might have also just thought she was a bit butch. :lol: 

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Wednesday, August 21

Joel McCrea day.

dead-end-1937

11:30 a.m.  Dead End (1937),  William Wyler film with terrific cast: McCrea, Humphrey Bogart, Sylvia Sidney, Claire Trevor, Allen Jenkins, Marjorie Main and the Dead End Kids.

 
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DOROTHY MAGUIRE is not one of my favorites. 

She’s fine I guess in A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN, But she is stuck playing a dour, joyless character- very much like Jane Wyman in “the yearling” while everyone else around her- Joan Blondell, James Dunn, and Peggy Ann Garner, have far more fun, “earthy” roles to play. 

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On 8/17/2019 at 5:39 AM, Bogie56 said:

Ben confirmed that indeed it was a premiere.  Unfortunately the copy that they could obtain cccwas not very sharp.

[re: WHEN TOMORROW COMES (1939)]

I'm still firmly in the "I'D RATHER SEE IT IN LESS THAN PERFECT CONDITION THAN NOT SEE IT AT ALL**" camp.

 

** unless the print is 1945 GIGI or WALLS OF MALAPAGA level bad.

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3 hours ago, Bogie56 said:

Wednesday, August 21

Joel McCrea day.

dead-end-1937

11:30 a.m.  Dead End (1937),  William Wyler film with terrific cast: McCrea, Humphrey Bogart, Sylvia Sidney, Claire Trevor, Allen Jenkins, Marjorie Main and the Dead End Kids.

 

Mon recommendaciones for JOEL McCREA day would be PRIMROSE PATH (1940) with GINGER ROGERS and in a performance that earned a verymuch deserved Oscar nomination MARJORIE RAMBEAU.

It is a film about a family trying to steer their daughter towards becoming a prostitute.

seriously.

at the opposite end of the spectrum is STARS IN THEIR CROWN (1950)- a "western" but not really- the story of minister and his life in a small town with his wife and their adopted nephew. it's on in the wee early hours of the morning, but for you insomniacs and possessors of DVR or ON DEMAND, i recommend it HIGHLY.

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